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You be open and honest with her, tell her how you feel and that you don't think it's going to work out because you can't handle the career path she has chosen. No one is going to blame you, I couldn't date a stripper, not a lot of people would be able to
I don’t think it is a trust issue any longer. For awhile I did worry that maybe she did things that she wouldn’t admit to me that she actually did when giving lap dances. She told me this whole story of how she dances to avoid the most ‘intimate’ things that are quite common. And she’s very smart and studies how to arouse a man, in order to keep him wanting more, without just going and grabbing his crotch. That sensuality can be in the eyes, touching their head, breathing in their ear….and make all the money she needs. She doesn’t need $500 a night and let some guy molest her for 10 dances in order to get it. $30-40 from the stage and $50-100 in dances and she’s done for the night.
What I’ve been feeeling lately though is not lack of trust, but simply the knowing of the things that she does do. For a stripper, it is extremely tame. But in the past I was OK with her dancing on stage, I loved it when she could make half or more of her dollars in a night just going across the strages without anyone ever even touching her or sitting with anyone. That let’s you be very selective who to sit with. I had gotten OK at her sitting with people and casually putting their hands on her arms, legs, the side of her , giving her a backrub, etc. And the dancing she says she would occaisionally brush a guys cheek with the outside of her breast, hit him on his legs or beltline with her during the dance so she doesn’t have to touch his crotch with her , and all manner of little tricks to keep the contact to a minimum.
She says she can’t keep guys from grabbing her when she goes to a bar downtown, in there it is harder. She minimizes it by moving, but if you act like a and get rude with them, there walks your money…so it may take a few seconds.
We’ve discussed it and she basically says she doesn’t have eyes in the back of her head, so they can reach and grab occaisionally and she can’t stop it or intercept immediately. If he keeps it up after she moves his hands, she’ll quit dancing for him after that song when she’s forced to grab his damn arms and hold them in place. I respect all of that, as far as dancers go that is about as clean as you can ever get.
But in our conversations to know exactly what goes on for my peace of mind……she basically admits that there are times, with some guys, she’ll let them grab her . It’s all a gray area as to how much is too much, how much is sliding the hands and how much is kneading it like bread. And I’m just exhausted in thinking and stressing about it.
I don't want to give her an ultimatum. I don't know how to tell her that this is the reason for so many of our problems (or the underlying reasons behind my feelings, shallow, selfish or not), but I don't know how to tell her I just think it is unreasonable for me to stay in a relationship where I'm miserable all of the time. Even if I can agree with all of her logic why I shouldn't be.
I will just finish with some of her quotes, to give an idea of her perspective. And hell, some of the reasons I've been able to be convinced to keep trying over and over... because I truly believe she is a very good person, and deserves someone who will trust her, support her, believe in her, and not emotionally damage the relationship because of their own jealousy, possessiveness, and insecurity. I have a guilt complex also so I'm fairly quick to blame myself for these quite rational feelings... and quickly turn to her side of the discussion...
-------------------------
“I want my freedom back, without feeling like i'm asking you to make some huge sacrifice, when all i'm really asking you to do is trust me.... and i have to wonder why that's so hard.”
“you want me to assure you that this will not happen again, that you can feel trust that I have a handle on it, and I will conduct myself with dignity. Yet you have to find some way to trust me and afford me that dignity.”
“and I am also asking you for the same respect you would expect in regards to your job and coworkers. If you want it to be just a job, then you have to stop making it about something sexual, or some kind of ownership, or some like that... and let me do the job as a job, without all the personal that unfortunately makes it feel like less of a job and more of an affair I'm having with someone else.”
“Well that was my world, my life, my income, my ability to support myself, and you just disregarded the importance of it as a job, and fell into it just like everyone else and brought my personal buisness, my personal life, things that are supposed to be seperate and under my control... into that club.... and it did effect me. You may question my ability to deal with it as a job, but it is your inability to deal with it as a job, that has caused us the most problems.... and brings some additional pressures that I've never had to deal with before.”
“I feel guilty for going to work, I feel guilty for not going to work, I feel guilty for appreciating the freedom of that job, I feel guilty because as much as you say you don't want me to quit for you... I did... because I couldn't deal with it anymore. I feel like there's something wrong with me because I like doing that job more than I don't. Sure yes I can find and do intend to find at some point a "real job" or something more appropriate to being someone's wife in this society... but I would like to do that at my own pace, without a bunch of pressure... ”
“And that even though say you were trying to express feelings of your own, you are just really expressing the same insecurities you've been expressing since day one... and that's a long time... and what else can I say or do... repeat myself endlessly and say over and over again I AM NOT A WHORE!“
I just want to go to work, and pay my bills, and not have to deal with more more more pressure in doing so. No I don't want to sit with my boyfriend and take his money when I can do it myself! I don't want to be a charity case at my job too. I don't ever want to feel the other pressures I was feeling in combination with, the only guy that will give me money is my man... talk about loss of dignity. You know when I don't need money and you come in it's different, when I can just off all night with you and not worry about having to get money from you if I do that it's different... 'What I need from you is to just let me have part of my life back, and trust that I understand the importance of our relationship and your feelings, and let me do what I want to and need to do, without a bunch of other feelings glogging up the fact that it's a job, and if you will let me do it as a job it will be a job, but if you continue to view it as "my other lover" we are never going to be ok”
“Find a way to trust me, my heart, and my feelings for you. Trust that I respect you more than that, that I respect my damn self more than that. “
“I feel more and more as time passes and the same insecurities are not ever laid to rest, that you will never have faith or believe that I love you and want to be with you, and would do my damndest to try not to hurt you.... that you will always assume the worst and act accordingly, and that in the end I will be the one that ends up hurt because you can't let go of your fears and stop judging me in the worst possible light (until you talk to me, but not after you make a fool of me, or break some )”
“When is it my turn, when do you give back to me what i gave, and just trust me and comfort me and support me... without making it about you .... can this one thing this one time be about me... and what i need... and what you are willing to deal with within yourself in order to be there for me... instead of me having to in the midst of everything trying to deal with how not to set you off, or how to have a 3 hour conversation with you about your feelings when all I can see right now is my wrecked car, and $1,400 in bills... and the fact that i am letting my mother down (she’s mentally unstable) by not doing something.... and these are my feelings but we can't get to them through yours, and it's frustrating, and a little heart breaking”
It is always your choice, you stay or you go, you don't demand she change from how she was when you meet.
I still don't understand what you want. You want to stay because you sound like you do, you just don't want her to dance. Your not getting that option and if you can't take it, then you need to man up and be honest with her, because she deserves to hear that you feel like you are sharing her and you can't. She hears the BS at the club, if you are going to break up with her, she has earned the right to the truth.
It doesn't seem like you've made a lot of head way. This is always going to be an issue for you (trust me, it would be a big issue for me!), and your girlfriend is clearly unwilling to find another form of employment. You're tired of knowing she's being mauled by horny dudes when she goes to her job, and she's tired of the endless conversations about your feelings. Maybe the two of you need to put this relationship to rest.
All the mental acrobatics in the world won't make you "o.k." with what she does. As wonderful as she is, there are other wonderful women out there who aren't strippers.
Good luck...
I think your at a point where its not about her job any more, but the way you deal with your own feelings. You can't just wish it would go away, and you can't just throw your feelings at her. If you cannot quietly handle yourself for that one night a week, or whenever she is at work, then your making your issues hers, but not dealing with them in a positive proactive way.
To be honest, this will never work, because you really want her job to go away, and it ain't. That means YOU go away, simply because you cannot accept that it is, what it is, and not likely to change.
I guarantee she will leave any way, when she has had enough of your continued inability to deal with the reality of your own making. Your simply not adjusting to HER reality very well. (not easy for any one to, realisticly)
I think she already knows that your feelings are typical of some guys, but that won't mean she will put up with it. Nor should she have to.
Your are not compatible enough to sustain this relationship at this time because you can't work together to solve your issues to the benefit of you both.
This relationship won't go that far. In the future don't date strippers and expect them to change because you want them to. It don't work that way.
I really see this as YOUR problem, not hers.
YOU can't deal with it.
So... leave.
If you REALLY don't want to leave, you HAVE to think of it as her JOB, and not as her "other lover". No choice on that.
So... your choices are this:
1. Leave
2. Accept that she is a dancer, it's her job, just like you'd have to accept her job if she was a secretary in an all male envirionment.
You have no other options. SHE should not have to quit her job for YOU. Would you quit your (lucrative) job for her? Would you throw away a job you like, that you're good at, and that makes a lot of money just because your girlfriend didn't like some of the people you work with? Or didn't like your clients? Of course you wouldn't! You'd think she was overly demanding to even ask!
BUT--if you can't switch the way you think, I suggest you move on. You have absolutely NO RIGHT to ask her to change.
First off, ultimatums don't work, especially when it's her job. Secondly, if you can't genuinely support her, faking it won't cut it, she'll leave you before you leave her. You're just setting yourself up for heartbreak.
If you have doubts, and you certainly do, break it off now so you can protect your ego and then you won't have to come back here asking everyone on here how to get her back.
Threads merged for the whole story.
Short form question – my girlfriend and I are now in a very unhealthy relationship. I want to know what strategy to pursue to communicate I want to end it. She's cheated on me. I accused her of it but never presented any facts. I snooped her email but don't want to admit that. I'd done it once before a year ago and promised not to do it again.
I do want this to end as amicably as possible; giving me the best chance at closure, and her the least damage as possible.
I don't want to throw out all the facts, basically calling her a lying whore, and walk away. If I admit to snooping, it's just more justification for what she did perhaps. But I have enough other facts that it is a hard way ti lie herself out of anyway.
Nor do I want to just tell her this just isn't working for me, and then see me as another jealous and suspicious guy that was too weak and had simply had no reason to not trust her since I never even confronted her.
I'd like me to get the closure and self-respect I need – I already feel humiliated and destroyed – but I'd like for her to see enough truth to understand that half of the stupid things I did was because of her actions – until now she's just pointed to all my flaws and said I need to work on 'me' and not on 'us' right now, because I'm the one that keeps not trusting her and breaking her boundaries.
And the deep details for those with more time and interest (THANK YOU!!!):
Just had 2 year anniversary with my girlfriend. The first 1.5 years felt like the real thing, fantastic romantic love, one of a kind soulmate, gets ME in every way, etc, etc. I'm 35. Was married for 5 years. This was the most amazing relationship I'd ever been in. Though there were some capatibility issues regarding her work, her previous kids, she's a night-owl that likes to stay at home, I'm a daytime adventurer, etc.
About 3 months ago we started falling apart... I did some things wrong in regards to my ex-wife - I didn't sleep with her but basically made my girlfriend feel betrayed or unsafe that I might go back to her. There were 2-3 small-medium events over the course of 9 months or so. I take accountability for that.
But in response my girlfriend pulled away, I became insecure and suspicious and broke a few of her boundaries – some she knew about and was angry at, and eventually I read her email and found the proof – though she didn't know that. I finally gave in and snooped and found email evidence that she said to her lover "I cheated on him, so that tells me that my feelings obviously aren't what they used to be. I love him but wasn't in love with him anymore."
I was mortified and in the worst pain of my life. I did struggle with my own guilt for causing this environment, all the while trying to reaffirm there's never a reason to cheat. And of course then the big conundrum, what to do? Confront her with the evidence that shows you were spying, or simply walk away and never get that closure. If you give her the facts that I did gain honestly, it might be enough to show that I'm not being just another jealous that doesn't trust her.
I was devastated obviously. We had a big blow out and she wanted to 'start over completely' with me. Right or wrong, I tried to understand and decide if I could forgive her. She had a right to be angry and hurt, but not to go outside the relationship. A month later and we were much, much closer again - our affection and fun and love had come back. Her lover had left the state on business for 2 months so I knew she wasn't cheating still. And I wanted to confront her but never could. Then he came back. He was back a week and had written her to come to him. She didn't write him back; not even to say she was re-committed to me. Nor did she go to him.
We got into another big argument and she was yelling at me how good she had been to me. In the last month she had been amazing and self-sacrificing to make me happy; she made true efforts to build what we used to have. But in her constant attacks on me about how good she was, I yelled back, "so you never lied to me, you never cheated on me?"
Well, in her mind I was just another man calling her a whore and not trusting her. That was always a hot-button item for her and she turned it into the obvious defensive mechanisms or sarcasm and outrage.
We didn't talk for days. And now just are in limbo. It's obvious we need to end this. I must break the fantasy of, if I can just keep her happy and satisfied, she'll always stay faithful. I guess that's every person, right? But we're going to hurt each other and let each other down... it's what you do then that truly matters.
I'd hurt her many times and she'd always bounced back... this time I think she just felt differently... more hurt, more angry, completely unsafe and insecure, and fully aware that after almost 2 years, I still hadn't fully accepted who she was since she knew she could never be a 'traditional' wife. And it was proof I didn't love her enough to give up my dreams of how I wanted my life to be... lifestyle does matter.
Anyway, I just worry so much about not getting my closure if I just walk away. I've been cheated on in the past, and I could never begin to heal until they admitted it... or I could at least tell them what I thought happened or knew happened.
It will be true grief and loss for many weeks and months... I don't want to make it worse by feeling lack of self-respect by feeling like not only did I not confront her, she is going to simply see my failures as a guy that was too jealous and suspicious and never had a reason to not trust her, good riddance if you don't want to keep trying and want to leave.
I do love this woman. I do think she's been in a lot of unhealthy relationships in the past. I don't want to pile on her and destroy her already weak self-image by knifing out a confession from her and in effect actually calling her a lying whore. But neither do I want to just walk away and have her think that there goes another man that didn't trust me for no reason. Or for stupid reasons phone calls from male friends too late at night. Those simply aren't the reasons I doubt her; but in her mind I have no other proof - after waiting 6 weeks since anything happened, she's got to imagine I would have confronted her long ago.
Part of me wants to tell her how I see the last 3 months happening – that it wasn't some deep character flaw within me that made me clingy and suspicious, since she was actually cheating though I had no proof yet. And then present a portion of my facts. And how I didn't know what to do because we were already doing better when I started filling in the final pieces.
Or do I just walk away... and let time be the healer.
That tit for tat stuff to get even, is childish. You simply tell her your feelings have changed, and you see no future with her, and since the love is gone, so are you.
The way your trying to do things is immature and messy. Now make a fast clean break so you can get beyond this.
Break ups hurt, even under the best conditions, so she will have to deal with it, as will you.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Oh.
Ok. My intentions were truly in the best interest of both of us... but I can see your point that my closure, my moving on should be about me and my path - and not about what I do or don't communicate to her. If that indeed is what you're trying to say.
Thanks.
That's exactly what I was saying. In trying to spare her feelings about a break up( which you can't do) you do more harm than good and all you can do is be civil, and direct.
Quote:
Originally Posted by talaniman
Can someone change the title of this question. I know it was merged, but thought I would get a lot more responses with a new title... no one is going to read through all of this or comment... her job is really a moot point here and it's misleading.
No trust left, how best to break up for true closure?
I no longer feel the same way about you, somewhere along the way our destinations changed and I feel it's best if we both go our separate ways
Honestly, from what you've wrote she's expecting this conversation at some point. You are not fooling her into thinking everything is perfect, she knows it's not and is just keeping you around to take herself down before she takes herself out. You might as well do it first.
Seems to me every response will be about the same. So just do it, and be done.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chuff
Thanks... this was a good answer. Unfortunately I'm just about genetically programmed to not be able to do 'brevity'. Thanks for the forum... I'll do my best.
HARSHNESS ALERT.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog9
Her job a 'moot point'?? How quickly you forget the long involved posts you wrote.
My view is that you were always trying to find the trigger which would give you the excuse for finishing the relationship. You always saw yourself as the victim to her sexuality because of her job. Your insecurity and jealousy drove a wedge between you as you kept obsessing about what she did with other men when she danced. You couldn't let it go.
The things we most fear are the things we most often create. The magic wand of your fear has manifested an infidelity and now your fears and obsession are justified. You can now safely say that it was all her fault and feel magnanimous in wanting to end the relationship gently, whilst bleating about how painful it will be for you to get over it (another obsession in the making).
At least be honest with yourself and stop being such a martyr.
Let her know that you're unable to be in the relationship any more and take responsibility for your part in it. If you end it, for heaven's sake don't contact her any more. Continue to get professional help for your tendency to humiliate and destroy yourself.
WAkE UP CALL!!!!
You are worried about being gentle and easy going on her. IS she being even half that considerate with your feelings?
SHE --IS cheating YOU --put up with it!
Get OUT asap
There should be no ''what about this and what about'' that about it!
Say she decides she likes another guy better enough to dump you do you think she is going to be sitting around asking about how to go about it??
NOPE Its going to be OUT THE DOOR BUD, MAKING WAY FOR THE NEW MAN IN MY LIFE.
Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Thank you. I've just not had the sense to do the right thing 2 months ago - and it only has led to us hurting each other far, far more.
She ed around 2 months ago. We rebuilt 'something' where she felt safe again, but in my anger I accused her of lying and cheating. She feels like whore, she's always hated that. Been badly damaged person because of that. And in trying to find a way to tell her I don't think she's a whore, but that she obviously lied about this one particular thing... she doesn't want to talk about it. She's avoiding me. She wanted to leave feeling like a whore behind in her past... and now when a 'good man' catches her ing up, she knows it...
I've found proof that she ed around AGAIN since that fight and more proof to a DIFFERENT guy saying she wanted to with him basically.
These are guys that she admitted she had kissed in the past, but always said she never slept with. Obviously when the man she used to love 'calls her a whore', she's now running and out and saying, of, you think I'm a whore? I'll show you a whore.
I'm hurt, but I'm so sad for her. I fell like if I could do anything, it would be to stop her from that self-destructive behavior. I guess I only created it by not calmly walking away 2 months ago.
I do care about her. I'm not trying to blame myself here other than for poor judgement and lack of honesty. Is there anything I should do other than just end it w/ as few words as possible now?
I can walk away, tell I *WAS* a suspicious and jealous that didn't have any real proof and my own issues with being cheated on in the past. Try to just take all the blame for everything I did... maybe she won't feel like such trash that she keeps acting out.
And then tell her that when we were happy, no one has treated me as well as she did. And that part is true.
Or maybe I just stop trying to manage her altogether. I can't save her... and when someone is this damaged, it is too easy to injure them so them just tear themselves apart.
This alone is enough to say it is her problem. She choose to 'resolve' problems this way so this alone is enough to show that she isn't serious about actuallu fixing anythung.Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog9
Quote:
Originally Posted by N0help4u
Absolutely. I had advice a month ago to walk away and not even approach the subject with her. She couldn't handle it. I didn't take that advice and now...
I just thought if there was some way to boost her self-image back as I walk away... it's her fault she chose to do the things to me she did when we had problems. Just feel guilty for hurting her more by making her confront it... but maybe I'm looking at it wrong.
In her psychology, sex is how to deal with everything she feels deeply... how to move on from being betrayed, etc, etc.
The beginning of the end for us was when I found a journal that showed how she went and had sex with someone to basically make herself feel better because she was embarrassed publicly by the guy she liked. She ed his friend. Ed him 'loud'. It was 4 years ago. And my heart broke reading it. Because I guess that was the sign I needed... and wanted to believe she'd changed.
Well, she felt humiliated by me... as often happens in a relationship... and here we go again.
Just walk away. You don't have to justify, rationalize or anything. She KNOWS and NO words are necessary.
Biggest proublem here
You tried to turn a stripper into a housewife
Doesn't work
Actually not the biggest problem here. It would require reading the thread though.Quote:
Originally Posted by zippit
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog9
The only person riding the merry go round is you at this point. She knows the relationship is over. She's just keeping you around until she finds something else. You on the other hand are making all these rules about the break up. I have to do this before I can do that, and she must be here before I can go there, A comes before B and it just keeps going on and on.
Just end. Just tell her the truth. You no longer trust her, she doesn't trust you, and before it gets any worse you'd think it's best for both parties to go there separate ways. It's not like everything is going perfect and this going to blow her out of the water. She knows it's not, she knows the break up is coming. So be calm but firm and do it.
You can't move forward in your life until you do this and really neither can she so in that regard you are actually doing something good for her if you need to feel some kind of justification or kindness from this, at least know that.
I read it
I was going to the very beginning
Chuff, and Zippit are both right, The experiment failed and its time to go, as it gets more complicated through over thinking, and inaction.
Well how about you look at it from her stand point. I was a dancer for 7 years. (Strippers make house calls) We entertain for our money. It is NOT freedom it is living in a mirror and making your money based on what other people expect you to look/act like. Dancing does bring in a lot of money the money brings some form of freedom cause you can have what you want when you want it. I started seeing a guy, 3 months in he said quit dancing or... So I quit dancing. Now I am in a relationship where he may or may not want to commit to me at all. I have given up my independce. I have to ask for money and feel the guilt of that. It's not like I haven't tried to find a job I have applied at almost 30 places from office work to fast food.
That being sad. What is it exactly about her dancing that really gets your goat? All dancers are different. If she works somewhere there are no rules that's one thing. So tell her she can dance all day and all night if that is what she wants to do but only at a club with rules no touching. No grinding on other guys mommy daddy parts because it's a form of cheating. I was the cleanest dancer around. You may not like my dance cause I didn't rub you off. But I could sleep at night and anyone who knew what I did at work knew I wasn't close to cheating.
You have to be honest. You have to know the reality that dancing is addictive, the money the attention. The lies that world can breed can be intimiating. You need to make the call, are you dating a stripper or an entertainer.
What are you trying to say?Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeseismee
When you are a dancer there is no freedom in it. You live in the mirror meaning you do nothing but focus on what you look like every second of your workday. Hours doing hair and makeup changing clothes. Wondering does this make me look fat. That isn't freedom. It is being bound to everyone else's opinion. And the thought"is she worth a dollar. Or 20"
Then you leave the job. Nobody has freedom in their job, they are working for the employer.Quote:
Originally Posted by cheeseismee
Either way, this doesn't really address the point of the OP.
If you give a girl an ultimatem, the will take the one you don't want them to.
Update for those that have followed:
Well, I've not follow too much good advice here, but I've made some progress.
As things deteriorated throughout September... we had some good times together, I continued to stay distant and not confront her... I guess I kept waiting to see just how far things would go - as someone said, capacity to humiliate myself.
She lied about staying home and sleeping when she actually went out... sent a few more emails to some people with very suggestive language... all the while trying to convince me that we needed some distance but she needed her life back, wanted to 'date' again and do whatever we needed to make sure we could stay in each others' lives, have some fun, until we were both in a place we could be vulnerable and trust each other again.
We had a few small talks; I made several attempts to tell her I didn't trust her, allude to the damage she had done to me... she seemed to accept it w/o admitting the details.
Until I finally wrote her and told her I was extremely unhappy, our trust was gone, our intimacy dissolving, and we were on the road to being completely over. How did she feel...
Her response was... to ask if I had time to talk the next day or the day after. I asked about that very night, she said she wasn't planning for any deep discussions tonight. Then didn't answer her IM's or email, drove out of town to see a band, and came back at 4am. She called me at 4am, said she had come by my place and knocked and I didn't answer. That's ridiculous it didn't wake me up. I asked why she didn't call me when she was standing outside my door. Something about not seeing my car, blah blah... b.s.
Then she wrote me the next day: "our options are try to build a relationship with you as you are now, that still protects me from the things that you are unable to alter at this time. That keeps us from fighting and hurting and lieing and all the that has not changed over the last two years....and wont anytime soon.
All I know is I can't be completely vulnerable to you as you are now, and that is not going to change without time. I don't know if it will be the end of our relationship or the beginning of something better, I can't know.... all I do know is I care about you and I want to keep you in my life, and I want us to find some fullfilment in that, and just go from there.
It's not going to feel the same ever again, it can't. Our relationship will never ever be what it was because everything is changed, but that doesn't mean it won't become something better, hell it should become something better, that's what I'm hoping for... but if the times we are having are not enough of something for you, I'm at a loss to know what else to do."
A week passed, we saw each other for simple, light hearted fun twice. We had two very deep discussions. I basically said I can't forget the last 4 months and just 'start over' a new relationship and build. I can't heal my broken heart w/o total honesty; I'm willing to try to forgive and not be judgemental - though I just wanted honesty between us before we could call it quits. That I was too suspicious and not trusting enough to go forward where we are now. I said I made many observations, I'm smart, and that I don't think she's been honest. That I was wrong for not bringing them up and confronting her months ago. That I never wanted to get into a 'yes you did; no I didn't' argument...
She said she was willing to talk about our problems. That bringing up things months and months old would just make her mad as I thought, she didn't want any more half in/half out commitments - and that I could talk to my therapist if I needed someone to talk to about dealing with my negative feelings of suspicion...
.. if I can't handle her going to see a band, and staying at an afterparty with "Bob" and his friends and family until 4:30am. Of course 2 years ago she told me Bob was just a friend... and a year later I found out she'd made out with him but she didn't want to tell me cause she didn't want me to be suspicious cause that was all in the past. I said I understood why she lied. But if she had sex with him, or anyone still in her life, I deserved to know. She agreed. Of course 5 weeks ago she went to the after party and she txted him the next day 'next time, hotel room.. ' and posted something about 'giving in again after 4 years' on her damn Facebook!! So I'm left with... not only did she cheat on me... it was with a guy that she obviously had slept with long ago and lied about it... and now is saying that I'm giving up on the relationship if decide I can't handle her going out with this guy.
She of course justified it all because 18 months ago I had kissed my ex-wife and threatened to go back to her... so none of this counts, it's all screwed up and let's just start over now.
Asked me to have a new perspective, what if we just met right now...
2 days later I sent her an email saying I can't see her anymore. I can't do what she asked, I can't trust her. That I want to give her more of her life back so she doesn't just sit at home waiting for me as much... let her go back to work and support that... but that I can't trust her, I can't pretend to not notice things I couldn't help but notice... I would be miserable and make her miserable.
She was pissed I sent it as an email. But since I couldn't do it in person, I had to. She called me a quitter, said she'd wasted 2 years of her life for me trying to get over my ex, lying about talking to her, cheating on her w/ my ex when she knew I had fooled around w/ my ex once when the divorce wasn't final yet... that THIS was the same situation and I could be able to sacrifice my comfort to be with her the way she did for me when I was getting out of my relationship.
I was thinking, she KNEW I was in the process of a divorce of a 7 year marriage... knew I had to still see her... yes, I hurt her all that time ago... but it had been almost 18 months and somehow she was seeing her affairs and me dealing with that as the same thing.
A day passed. She said she was shattered. Showed up at 2:30 in the morning. Didn't beg me to come back... but obviously upset... she wasn't angry anymore. Just shocked and hurt and rejected... and still felt it wasn't fair I wasn't going to endure the same 'suffering' she endured. Which of course at the time she said it wasn't suffering, just things she was willing to deal with and times that we always called the 'good old days' - until now, she is equating it to me dealing with her multiple infidelities and me crying and devastated everyday for 3 months.
So now I'm trying to get her out of my life... I'm like... how is all of this a surprise to you?? The day I said I was unhappy, we were going towards a road to be finished... you LIED to me and left the city to go see a band. THAT was your priority. A month ago you said you didn't want to be my girlfriend anymore, just 'date' me - which I guess is code for see other people though she would never admit that, merely justify it, and said our relationship and history was completely over... but we can start new if I want.
I guess just justifying the whole time that since she believed I was still considering trying to get back together with my ex, putting taking care of her as my 'ex' as a higher priority than her... that until I showed I was 100% done with her, she could just act out and be compulsive. I do admit that she had reasons to feel these things. I understand WHY she did them. I wasn't always good to her... but she chose to do this... and months after there was no doubt I just wanted to be with her... she was still doing this...
I certainly don't want to start over with her... given what a mess her life is, her job I can't stand, her infidelity she won't even admit to (honestly, there's enough here I could forgive if she wanted to do the actual steps at healing and not just ignoring it).
I am heart broken. I never confronted her directly about it, just the 'observations and perceptions' and told her she's been 'made' in an indirect way.
I wish I'd had. The advice here was good to just walk away... but with her semi-emotional abusive type of bull... even with what I said it still made me feel guilty about quitting and angry that each time she said that it wasn't fair for me to do this, or be sad about this, because she was the one getting lied to and cheated on back then...
Anyway. I'm trying to move forward. We did get together to trade our 'things'. And had a nice healing talk for a few hours. Straightened some things out. Cemented reasons we weren't healthy for each other.
But I still ache and miss her. Worry that I won't find someone that makes me feel like she did... but continue to see her life for what it is. The drugs that she explains away, the drama with her kids (more obvious bad judgement)...
It is so in my instinct to bring her back to me... but there are 100 reasons she's poison... I know I can't save her... and I know that for every hour of joy she brings me, I have lived through 4 hours of misery since April...
And without years of therapy for her, that will always be so...
Cold turkey isn't working well, I'm having such a hard time feeling cold to her, wanting her to understand that I love her, do want her... but does she just understand that what she's done is unforgivable given she wants the very things still in her life, that were the tools used to destroy me?
I just want to tell her that so badly... how could I ever make her happy for her, be happy for me, when all it takes is to see or hear the first name of "Bob" attributed to someone else - a store, a football player, a guy at my job... and not just feel heartbroken from the damage she inflicted me with this guy. I was with her a week ago and got a phone call from another state 'oh, that's weird, lol' - and yet I know where "Bob" has a gig this week... is it him? I don't know, it could be a coincidence - why would he not call from his local cell phone number? But still... it stopped me dead in my tracks and I had to grieve for 3 minutes internally until I could go back into denial and compartamentalize that '6 weeks ago' is now in the past...
It's easy to just say 'leave the lying whore alone' - but I hope someone can understand that is difficult. Especially when I'm already taking too much blame for her compulsive, reackless behavior, her emotional abuse of trying to 'punish me', disrespect me... withdraw from me... demanding distance from me, defining on her own that she must have her old social life back and independence from me... just to see me 1-2 times a week for 'dating' after almost living together for over a year... then blaming me for not putting in the effort... sigh.
Thank you greatly anyone that read this.
Sitting at home alone, trying to grieve and experience loss, and hopefully recovery on the way...
Quote:
Originally Posted by bluedog9
How would someone compute this?
In my mind... the difference is that she KNEW going into this the risks involved. I was willing to be open and honest and discuss the pain, discuss where I screwed up... and she wants to equate all of the hell she went through (which was never defined as more than 'difficult' to the heart-wrenching pain I've suffered, over details she's not willing to discuss or admit to me. As if dealing with infidelity... and not being up to that challenge, is "not loving me through your doubts.."
Her to me, 24 hours after the break up:
"It was NO small sacrifice, It was an INORDINATE amount of patience, and it was an INCREDIBLE amount of support....
and I'm saying it would take the same from you, for us to make it past here....
and you have already decided you are incapable, that it is not worth what you will have to go through to accomplish it, that there is NO way you can do it...
therefore you are not my match, because you can not give to me what I have given to you... and it was not easy... but now you take the easy road, and run... that is why i feel like you quit... you may just be too weak, in any case we are not equally matched.
you have the right to quit, I acknowlege and accept that.
I have the right to feel like I wasted a bunch of effort on someone who wasn't willing to put that same effort in when the shoe is on the other foot....
you can't love me through your doubts, as I did you.... and I feel like I invested a bunch of time in someone who was never truly and still isn't committed to me or the relationship.
I am not asking anything of you, you did not once ask of me.... and you can't do it....
I am shattered."
Wow bluedog. Why do you keep doing this to yourself?
I can honestly feel your pain, I can. But I feel as if you have this huge serrated knife with which you keep stabbing yourself in the heart, again and again. Repeatedly.
What I can see from your most recent posts is that both you and your GF viewed the relationship in very different ways. However, what is also very clear is that you both feel that you have made a huge effort and many sacrifices to no avail. At some level, your efforts, hopes and dreams did not intersect. At some level you were not able to communicate or to understand each other. At some level you both had very different views about what was happening in the relationship.
I don't know and can't tell from your writings what the real story is. In the end it probably doesn't matter. What you really need to do is to move away from this and heal. You have issues with women and with trust - that has been clear from the start of this thread.
At some stage you mentioned you were seeing a counselor - it is essential that you keep doing this because you need to stop stabbing yourself in the heart if you are ever to lead a happy life.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gemini54
I think you hit the nail on the head. We define some things very differently regarding what is essential for security and trust and intimacy to thrive.
Then environment that it did for me left her feeling trapped - I understand and respect that. But she would never give me the same respect back to understand why I would feel that way.
Even yesterday she sent an email to a friend of mine, saying how it was sad but we were moving on - and how it was for the best if after two years I still couldn't see what kind of woman she was and trust that she wouldn't be cheating.
But I've seen her lies with my own eyes - enough that the truth of actual intercourse doesn't matter if you're spending the night somewhere else. And I've seen her words say 'i must admit within myself I cheated on him... ' - and while I'm not waiting for her to admit it , I know part of me is waiting for her to take some lvl of responsibility. Because part of me still cares what she thinks for some reason. She knows. She knows. She knows.
I do not understand why I'm still looking for ways to get her to take that responsibility in some fashion. I know it can't change anything.
My experience in 2 years with her - she doesn't take responsibility for but .1% of anything - regardless if it is me, her family, the utility company, etc. It's always someone else doing something unreasonable and unable to live up to her superior set of morals or logical decision making.
Somehow being a good a man as I can and saying, 'i'm not going to accuse you of anything, but let's put it this way, I've seen things that make me unable to trust you, I'm sorry' - and walking away; has been hard.
The consistent invalidation, from a psychological and emotional abuse definition, has driven me crazy for I don't know how long. Trust issues? You shouldn't trust your own feelings. If she screws up and I eventually lose my patience, I am morally in the wrong for losing my patience, not that she was unaware and never apologized for being 2 hours late. That' why I keep doing this... fighting for validation.
I am still seeing my counselor.
Try: http://shrink4men.wordpress.com/
Might ring some bells.
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