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Originally Posted by Romefalls19

I think what we are all saying is, you never healed from the first break-up and now all of this is happening so quickly. Because it is happening so quickly you are jumping at her call(just my opinion) and trying to rush things to get back to the place you were before, but keep in mind, if what went wrong in the relationship is not discussed then it will only happen again. "If we do not learn from the past, we are doomed to repeat it"

Don't take this the wrong way, I want this to work out for you. But I'm just afraid that if it falls through, its going to hit you a lot harder because you never fully healed

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You are absolutely right that I haven't healed. I need to find a way to deal with that while dealing with having her in my life again. Impossible? Maybe. I brought this on myself, and I feel as though I need to get stronger and rise to the challenge I set before myself. I had built a wall to protect myself, but it turned out to be made of glass. Transparant and easily shattered. I lost all my defenses merely being in her presence. I need to find a way to better control myself before the next date. I'm not entirely sure how to do that.

Believe me I want to discuss what went wrong before jumping back in. In fact we've been doing that. But on the other hand, I'm not sure the dating phase is the right time to drudge up all the negative emotions associated with that. I believe it to be crucial right now to form new happy experiences with her so that those are the emotions she will immediately associate with me. If there's one thing I have done, its examine what went wrong. I think there will be a more appropriate time and place to discuss with her where the relationship failed.

If this does fall through, I will be crushed, and I know that. I knew that intellectually going in. It won't kill me though.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

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Originally Posted by SJB1701E

Ok seriously putting me on the defensive here.

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When we feel like we need to defend our actions, that's the time to evaluate them first. I share his concerns, as we already know your weakness for her and now a willingness to follow her lead, is something to think about. Think about where your head will be after spending most of the day smelling her perfume and slobbing on her lipstick. Part of what we as guys ignore is putting ourselves in a position to be seduced, or influenced against our will. This whirlwind your on, has you doing, and not listening, a dangerous game of distraction, from the real issue, and that's how she feels about you, and more importantly, what she is going to do about it. Reread this posts for yourself, and see if you have kept any part of the plan you have laid out for yourself. If you find it, please let me know.

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Ok so how do I take charge of the situation? I feel as though any control I have will be illusionary. I can't make her be with me again. I can't make her think or feel the way I want her to. So what can I do? What control do I actually have over the situation? Myself? Not hardly. Being around her was like taking a hit from a really strong drug. (No drugs are bad for you metaphors. Already been down that line of thought several times) It was intoxicating. She has a spell over me and it irritates me. And after the meeting, I crashed off that drug. I am feeling withdraws I haven't felt since the breakup. Physical, psycolgical, and emotional pain. The wounds have been reopened in other words. I knew this would be hard but I wasn't prepared for it. My eyes haven't been taken off the goal though. I won't be satisfied unless she defines her feelings for me and I get reconcilliation with her. And I am prepared to break it off with her if I don't get that definition and reconcilliation in the next few months. I am getting past the initial shock. This will get easier and I will get more control over myself. I'm already telling myself no to several impulses I've had such as asking her out for another date so I can see her sooner. I told myself no. I also haven't contacted her since the date which believe me is a hard thing to do. I am reevaluating the plan and trying to find a way to revamp it to take into account what I learned in this first encounter. I've tripped some, but I haven't fallen flat on my face. I just got to make sure I keep from falling. Time to make a new plan.

Hey guys, just wanted you all to know I woke up today feeling normal. What an odd thing to say right? I didn't feel panicked or worried. I didn't wake up craving attention of the ex girlfriend. I felt normal and have had a pretty normal day. My mind is a lot clearer and my heart a lot calmer. I don't know why. Perhaps it took a few days to get over the shock of seeing her, but today I feel pretty good.

I did speak to the ex today briefly, but I was already having a good day before that. The one thing I will say I observed out of her though is she is being extremely insecure about me. She keeps going on and on in every conversation email and on the phone about how much she is looking forward to the next date. And she keeps asking me repetedly if I really want to go with her. Not in a way that sounds like she wants to back out, but in a way that sounds like she is afraid of me backing out. I jokingly brought it up saying, "Yes, I still want to go with you. You're not afraid of me canceling are you?" She said she thought the only reason I was going with her was so I wouldn't hurt her feelings. This makes somewhere around the 10th time she's asked me if I was still going with her. Today she actually asked twice. I checked my email when I got to work and she had sent me 2 emails, one telling me how much fun she had with me on her birthday and the other making sure I was still going with her. I replied saying yes. Then later in the day she calls me from work asking me the same thing like she couldn't wait till after work to get the answer from her email. I don't know what to make of it other than she's being insecure. Thought I'd mention it as I thuoght it was curious. I won't say it had no effect on me, it was certainly a confidence and ego boost, even if it is a sign that she could someday fall back into codependancy.

Why did you call in the first place again?

Seems to me your life just got a whole lot more complicated when you picked up that phone and called her. Man, getting her back better be worth all this dude.

She called me at my work Number...

Oh sorry, misunderstood you BMI. I hope its worth it in the end as well. I contacted her initialy because I think too much with my heart. Seriously our relationship only turned sour in the last 3-4 weeks or so before the breakup. Mostly it was good for the almost 2 years before that. Of course we had issues like everyone but none of them were deal breakers. Codependancy is something to be addressed before I go too far into the deep end. It basically comes down to pros vs cons and risk vs reward. At present things are still worth the effort to me. "If you want something bad enough play through the pain" "Nothing worth having is easy to obtain."

Listen SJB,

Do not get caught up in inspiration quotes and apply them to your love-life, they are a fantistic way to delude yourself into thinking your fighting the good fight but really set you up for hurt and heartache.

To be honest, you contacted way too early, your not ready for this, plain and simple. Only once you have come to terms with what happened before can you handle these situations, by the time that happens you usually have gotten over them (bless N/C).

I think this is folly, done it myself, read about others doing it, very rarely does it turn out well. I know you will not take this advice (I didn't) but rather justify what you are doing in the name of love and fate, regardless I wish you luck.

BMI, I agree totally... He is jumping way too high with things right now. She calls, he calls right back. You haven't adjusted to things wihtout her yet, and she is still dependent on whoever she can latch onto. It seems to me that old problems that caused the relationship to end are just going to come back around and leave you worse than what you were. Is she even going to get help for her dependacy?

Re-living the honeymoon seldom helps. Sooner or later it will be stone cold facts, and old feelings, and behaviors, that need to be resolved... again. The whole question will again be the same as it was, are you both willing to work together, to solve your issues, to the benefit of you both? Not can you still have a good time, with a lot of chemistry.

Well tal, I'm glad you said that, because now we're getting down to the nitty gritty dirty, what went wrong and what can we do to fix it. We had a talk to day focusing on exactly that. Brutal honesty from both of us and talking about what we could do better. I also got emotional feedback from her and her feelings towards me. The reasons for her indecision. And what we can do to correct those issues. I expect more talks with her soon about it. She's still in love with me. She's very hurt by me. I don't trust her. She doesn't trust me. We agreed to start earning eachothers trust back one day at a time. It's a step forward. I feel better having got a lot out in the open with her. I decided, after encouragement from my therapist, that if I am going to be completely open and honest with her, I should do so boldly, and I did. And it got positive results. Still much work to be done, but now we aren't tiptoeing around the issues which means we can actually start talking them out and working on them. She says she wants to fix things. We both agreed to do it one day at a time.

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We both agreed to do it one day at a time.

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There's hope as long as your willing to work. All to often when the newness, and fun wear off, people just drift apart, looking for new thrills. Relationships are about the work you put in, with your partners help.

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Originally Posted by SJB1701E

She says she wants to fix things. We both agreed to do it one day at a time.

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You're headed in the right direction. The willingness of both you to work things out is what is necessary to start over. However, as always remember to take things slow. Good luck and keep us up-to-date.

Guys, here's an update. Still proceeding one day at a time, and slow. She hurt me today. I've decided to forgive her, even though many of you wouldn't. I found out about a rebound guy earlier this week from her being upfront and honest with me, and I was afraid to tell you guys because I didn't want all of you jumping to conclusions. I needed to see things on my own.

The rebound guy: Much older than her, hidden from her parents, they weren't dating, just "more than friends", which she explained meant there sere feelings involved and she was having a physical relationship with him to the point of making out and no farther. She said that they didn't get involved until after the breakup. When she told me about him she didn't tell me all this, just of his existence. All she would tell me is she had to talk to him about "things". Naturally I was uneasy and ready to head to the door and walkout of the situation, but I decided to see how it played out, being as she was being somewhat upfront and honest about it.

Today, I called her to set a definite get together time for our date on Friday. She answered and sounded really upset. I asked her what she was bothering her and she told me she ended things with the other guy today and that it didn't go cleanly. She said that she wanted to see where things go with me and that I deserve better than for her to be sneeking around behind my back with him while she was doing so. I told her I was hurt that she hadn't been completely honest with me to begin with, but I was going to forgive her. I stopped by her work when she got off and she met me in the parking lot. I hung out with her there for a little less than an hour. I asked her, and told her I was only going to ask once and then I would drop it and put a little trust in her, "Are you done with this guy and pursueing anything romantic or physical with anyone else while you are trying to work things out with me?" She said she was done and that all she's been able to think about is me since that last date. She said she was really sorry it had taken this long (almost 2 weeks) for her to decide to end things with him and that she was really worried that she had just screwed up any chance she had had with me by hiding it from me. I forgave her. She assured me I am the only one now and that she believes things will work out with me, but that she wants to go slow and not jump right back into a relationship because she believes that was one of the initial problems with our relationship the first time. We almost skipped dating all together the first time (somewhere around 3-4 dates before we were spending all day every day together). She said she thinks things will work out between us, but she believes we need to do a lot of things differently, which I agree with. She says that I've really changed, and for the better, and I've noticed some positive changes in her as well. I still feel a lot of hurt and some anger towards her, but I'm dealing with it. I especially feel hurt and anger over her hiding this guy from me, but I am taking a leap of faith now by trusting her and giving her the benefit of the doubt.

I don't think she was hiding anything, and she has come clean. Go from there, and as you have said, you skipped the dating process before, so now enjoy it, and have fun getting to know each other, and see where it leads, just be realistic, and keep the eyes open.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

I don't think she was hiding anything, and she has come clean. Go from there, and as you have said, you skipped the dating process before, so now enjoy it, and have fun getting to know each other, and see where it leads, just be realistic, and keep the eyes open.

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She has come clean, and that's why I forgave her. What she was hiding was the extent of the relationship with this other guy. When she told me about him, he was simply her "friend". All she had told me was that he was a close friend and that they weren't dating. Nothing about being physical with him or anythign else. She had told me when I had asked a week and a half ago that I wasn't in competition with him and I wasn't a backup guy and that she was seeing where things go with me. She hid (and continued) the sudo relationship with him during this time when I had trusted her that nothing was going on. She continued to be physical with him even though she told me nothing was going on. That's what she was hiding. But she ended it today, and came completely clean with me, so I am going to trust her. Sometimes all you have to run on is faith. Trust has to begin somewhere, and I guess this is where its going to start. And yes, we are going to go real slow, and yes, I will keep my eyes open. Thanks Tal.

Being as there are no guarantee's in life, sometimes you just have to make a decision, and follow it as far as you can. As long as you stay honest with yourself, you should be fine. Life will break your heart sometimes, regardless of making all the right moves, and even the best decisions. It's a matter of dealing with whatever happens, and being true to yourself. If your afraid of rejection, you will never try to connect with another human, if your afraid to make a mistake, you'll never take a risk. If you don't try, you'll never have a darn thing. I tell you this because I think your mature eniugh to deal with it. I don't know how your story will end, but I wish the best. Let go of everything, but the notion of enjoying this time, with this female, and just pay attention.

I tell you I'm no fan of having to spread rep around. That was very inspirational T-Man, I absolutely LOVE the part about having your heart broken even though you dothe right thing (although I cannot say I have ever had that happen cause I've never always done the right thing but I'm sure it applies to others)

Consider this a greenie:)

To SJB, Listening and following T-mans advice would be doing the right thing, regardless of the outcome friend.

I concur, BMI, that was one of the best things I've ever seen Tal post on here, not that Tal doesn't always give great words of wisdom that come from real life exerience. I need to spread some rep around as well, consider this a greenie Tal!

On tidbit of information that I found out today about said rebound guy. This will knock you an your arse. She's 21 years old... the rebound guy... he is 41 years old... I'm starting to be suspicious that I wasn't the biggest reason for her ending things with him. I feel a bit like throwing up. My parents are 42 years old. He's old enough to be her father. What kind of a sick pervert goes after someone half his age... not that I blame him entirely... was she thinking getting physical with someone twice as old as her... I'm a little sick right now. When she said slightly older, I was thinking maybe 5 years... not 20!

Opinions?

41 and 21 is gigantic. I, personally would not even date her I found that out. I know that sounds harsh but I know myself and I just could not deal with that. I once dated a girl who dated a guy 8-9 years older and when we got into fights I made much fun of her over it,I know it's the wrong thing to do but I just couldn't deal with it.

I know what you mean when you say it makes you feel sick. Sorry mate, I think you've already put way too much into this without this new info, with this added I say RUN!! These are the decisions she is making?

I'm trying to determine if I can deal with this. Its taking a lot not to yell and scream at her about how stupid this was of her to do. I've openly expressed my disgust to her repeatedly and all she keeps saying is "I'm sorry I'm sorry", "I'm really stupid. I did a really stupid thing", and "I really f***ed things up." I don't know if this was her just making a mistake, or if this kind of stupid selfdestructive behavior is all I'll be able to expect from her now. I don't remember her making stupid decisions like this. Another even worse thought is that it was her acting purely on impulse and hormones, which makes me question her ability to make decisions all together, because that being the case, she didn't even stop to consider the consequences of her actions before acting upon them. Knowing the self esteem issues she has, that could also be a factor in her decision. Seeking validation of her self worth though attention from and approval from the opposite sex. That really only explains the *need* for a rebound and not the age gap though. I told her I need time to figure out if I can deal with this. One time mistake or slippery slope? I need to determine that and I need time to do it. Its disguting in all senses of the word.

I'm sorry I'm ranting, I'm not obsessing, I just need to vent. I'm trying to rationalize it to help myself cope, but its such an irrational act I can't figure it out. It makes no logical sense and therefor I can't grasp it. She "can't explain it" and I can't figure out how to cope. I need time. I'm not going to make the decision to press on or run without taking some time to think about this and whether I can cope with this.

You've got to be kidding right? You act like 41 is ancient. I think you're just pissed that she dated anyone at all and if he had'nt been older you would've found something else to freak out about. I mean come on there are plenty of men over 40 that are crazy-sexy. 2 for example Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp. And that's just 2 off the top of my head.

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Originally Posted by ItsHisLoss

You've got to be kidding right? You act like 41 is ancient. I think you're just pissed that she dated anyone at all and if he had'nt been older you would've found something else to freak out about. I mean come on their are plenty of men over 40 that are crazy-sexy. 2 for example Brad Pitt and Johnny Depp. And thats just 2 off the top of my head.

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Looking is one thing... Its not the "age of 41" I'm hung up on, it's the 20 year age gap. I think a 30 year old with a 50 year old is just as creepy. At 21 she is a child by comparison to a 41 year old. That is what I am hung up on. I find many women in their 30's and 40's to be attactive, but not to the point I would have a physical relationship with them when I'm only 22. I think people should stick in their age range. Yeah it bothered me that there was someone at all, but it was easier to deal with until she much later told me the age difference. If you were a parent in your 40's, even though she is an adult, how would you feel about your daughter having a physical relationship with someone that's about the same age as you are?

SJB I completely agree with you. The age gap alone would make me hesitant. To ItsHisLoss, I wouldn't say it is the fact that it's anyone in fact but the age difference just makes you think twice about things. 41 might not be ancient but 20 years old is not something that should should be taken likely. It's his decision whether to forgive the girl for making that mistake. Personally I don't think I could forgive someone for that type of impulse, because what other bad decisions could she make on impulse

Once you're an adult, the ages go out the window. Sure you may not agree with the choices of others, but you may as well accept it, and let it go, just from the fact it's their choice to make. Its not for us, or anyone else, to try and figure out why people do what they do, that's such a complicated, long process, filled with assumptions, and speculations. Basically a waste of time. You have always heard me say that coping with our feelings, in healthy, positive ways is one life lesson that carries us through our whole life, and that's where your at now SB, and its on you, how you deal with your feelings, and what you do about it. I think you've learned something about yourself, and your attitudes though, that may well give you food for thought now, and in the future. Today it's the age difference of consenting adults. Upfront and right in your face. That's something you need to examine, or at least understand, as older guys will always be attracted to younger females, and vice versa. Is this a deal breaker? Is this something you can't reconcile? Is this something you can't get over? Isn't it funny how life tests our love, and abilities, in ways that shock and scare us? Think about it, as the decision you make will have far reaching consequences in all your future dealings, so best find out, and deal with how you feel. If 54 ain't old, then 40 sure ain't either.

Still, not at 100% but I think it is something I can deal with. The age gap irks me, but its her life and her decisions. I've made plenty of dumba$$ decisions myself, especially at the age I'm at now, and making those mistakes is how I learn and grow. From the feel I got from her today, she is very questioning over that decision and is learning from it. That's what's important. She made some stupid decisions the past couple months, but seems to be learning from them. As for me, I make stupid deciaions every day, including today. I'll leave it at that. Today, the second date, went really well. I have the feeling things will work out between us. Time will tell, one day at a time.

She wants to maintain a friendship with the guy knowing that I am uncomfortable with it. I can't flat out tell her no, but letting her know I am uncomfortable with her continuing a friendship with him did nothing. I am not possessive jealous or controlling on any unhealthy scale and don't mind her having guy friends but this is different. She had/has? "feelings" for him and only recently ended the physical relationship with him and I am threatened by this. I haven't been quite this open to her about it, but what I have said got the response of "deal with it." So much time and emotion already invested in this, I'm not wanting to quit. She assures me that its over with him and that she's just being his friend now. She says she doesn't want to "f*** things up anymore" and wants it to work between me and her, but on this she won't budge. On top of things, the guy just had a heart attack this weekend so now she's upset about that. I'm not in a position to make any demands as far as who she's friends with, but I'm really not comfortable with it. I don't trust him. He's a scumbag lowlife perverted drug addict that pursues girls that are the same age as his daughters (of which he has 2). I kept that opinion to myself. Do I trust her? She assures me its over with him. She's enthusiastic about working on our previous relationship problems and starting again. She says she's still in love with me and isn't involved romatically or physically with anyone else, nor is she looking. Do I bite my tongue until everything stabilizes? I don't want to appear insecure to her, but wouldn't you be in my shoes? Its one obstacle after another. I've gotten through everything so far. Am I making a big deal over nothing?

I guess what I really need to do is just sit down with her and explain my feelings out in the open. Things failed last time due to a communications breakdown and keeping things inside. If we can't communicate openly then this will be doomed from the start. I won't get anywhere being controlling or demanding. Hopefully when I see her this Thursday she will be receptive to listening to me. I think if I approach her the right way and simply explain my feelings that we can work through this. Maybe I am blowing it out of proportion, but I really don't trust this guy, and no matter how much trust I place in her, I can't trust him. I just hope she's smart enough not to put herself in a compromising position with him.

Well I don't think things can get any worse. I got her to finally fess up to everything she was hiding. Everything I suspected is true. But there's a big difference between suspecting and knowing. Where to begin. She started the make out sessions with the guy while we were on a break. I know on here break is generally considered break up but on a technicality it is still cheating. There had been no declaration of it being over. Two days after the break up she slept with him. She said after dealing with the breakup she just wanted meaningless sex but felt like sh!t afterwards. My question, if she felt like sh!t why did she continue her little makeout sessions with him for 2 months? Kind of pointless to ask at any rate. Did I mention I lied to you guys yet? I didn't exactly take things slow. The second date, I slept with her. This of course before she admitted everythign to me. I haven't slept with her since the one time, but still. So this past Saturday, our nice little scheduled lunch date got pretty ing ruined. She spent all day begging and pleading with me. Appologizing to me. Telling me she'd do anything. Desperate for me to forgive her and not walk out of her life. She has now established a history of cheating. She cheated on me and the boyfriend before that. She slept with a guy that's the same age as my dad 2 days after we broke up. I feel strangely numb with slight hints of sadistic torture thoughts drifting through my head. I took this girls virginity and now I guess she felt free to open her legs up to any nasty er that comes along. At any rate I haven't decided what to do yet. The logical thing would be to run as fast as I can. The emotional thing to do would be the same. But I still have feelings for her despite everything. I told her to leave me alone while I think about things. I need some time to myself to absorb everything and sort my thoughts and feelings out. Oh and I haven't lost my head in this. I could have delivered any wild demands I wanted and she would have complied. Instead I was sensible. I said, if I decide to stay she has to agree to random drug tests whenever I feel like it. She isn't to speak to this guy again. And last, I took her to the free clinic and made her get tested for STDs being as I did sleep with her since she slept with the other guy. I know you all will tell me the logical thing to do (to run away fast as I can), but I need to think about things before I decide what to do. I don't think things could get worse. Either way, the worst is over no matter what decision I make. I'll update you guys when I make the decision.

All right, well I haven't posted in a while because I have been busy as hell. However I feel very compelled to respond to your update.

SJB1701E, I think you are a good guy, but I am quickly losing respect for you. I'm honestly very surprised at the things you are saying and doing. First of all, this whole thing about her seeing some guy twice her age... get over it! Personally I'm a little offended because my Mom was 26 and my dad was 52 when I was born. That is a HUGE age gap but they are still married. It's not the greatest marriage but hey not many of them are these days.

Second, its none of your business what she did during the break. When you are on a break you are free to do as you please, no if's, and's, or but's, and there are definitely no "technicalities." Quit holding her past over her head, you have no right to do that. She should not even be asking you for an apology.

Third, your heading down a bad path. You are exhibiting characteristics of potentially being a controlling boyfriend. This whole deal about random drug testings at your will is ridiculous. Again, you have no right to do that. A relationship is about trust, if you don't trust her than get out of this thing before it gets worse.

Fourth, the logical thing is not to run. I'll tell you what the logical thing to do is. The logical thing is to deal with YOUR insecurities about her sleeping with someone else much older than you during a time in which you were not together. Once you have done that, put this whole situation behind you and continue to mend the relationship. Not to long ago you were so hurt about losing her and now that she is back and willing to work things out you want to blindly throw it all away. What's worse is that you are throwing it all away for some very stupid reasons.

Listen, if you truly love this woman than you will accept her for who she is and not force any rules upon her. You will look beyond her flaws, her mistakes, her past and love her for the person she is at this very moment. This girl you love so much is right there in front of you willing to work things out, but I guarantee you will lose her and you will regret it if you continue with your behavior.

Please, don't screw up your second chance.

Confused, I am going to go against you on this one. He isn't screwing up the second chance at all, he is going into this guarded as he should. This girl told him that they just made out and now that she feels she has him back, she is going to drop all the bombs onto him? It would be very wise for you to walk away, as you don't need a liar in your life. If she lied about this, who knows what else she could be hiding. If you stay with her, you're constantly going to question everything she says. It is true that a relationship is about trust, but she servered that trust when she said she only made out with him.

Now I do agree with you about the controlling boyfriend, you can't impose rules onto someone my friend. If she wants to stray, she's going to stray. Simple as that, don't say if she complies with these demands you will feel better, that's a lie. I have been down that road before and she did everything she was supposed to(yes I was a jealous controlling SOB.. keyword.. was) and yet I still questioned her. Once trust is broken between two people, it is very hard to get back. Take this time to think if your life would be better with or without her

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Originally Posted by confused25

Alright, well I haven't posted in a while because I have been busy as hell. However I feel very compelled to respond to your update.

SJB1701E, I think you are a good guy, but I am quickly losing respect for you. I'm honestly very surprised at the things you are saying and doing. First of all, this whole thing about her seeing some guy twice her age...get over it! Personally I'm a little offended because my Mom was 26 and my dad was 52 when I was born. That is a HUGE age gap but they are still married. It's not the greatest marriage but hey not many of them are these days.

Second, its none of your business what she did during the break. When you are on a break you are free to do as you please, no if's, and's, or but's, and there are definitely no "technicalities." Quit holding her past over her head, you have no right to do that. She should not even be asking you for an apology.

Third, your heading down a bad path. You are exhibiting characteristics of potentially being a controlling boyfriend. This whole deal about random drug testings at your will is ridiculous. Again, you have no right to do that. A relationship is about trust, if you don't trust her than get out of this thing before it gets worse.

Fourth, the logical thing is not to run. I'll tell you what the logical thing to do is. The logical thing is to deal with YOUR insecurities about her sleeping with someone else much older than you during a time in which you were not together. Once you have done that, put this whole situation behind you and continue to mend the relationship. Not to long ago you were so hurt about losing her and now that she is back and willing to work things out you want to blindly throw it all away. What's worse is that you are throwing it all away for some very stupid reasons.

Listen, if you truly love this woman than you will accept her for who she is and not force any rules upon her. You will look beyond her flaws, her mistakes, her past and love her for the person she is at this very moment. This girl you love so much is right there in front of you willing to work things out, but I guarantee you will lose her and you will regret it if you continue with your behavior.

Please, don't screw up your second chance.

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Ok, confused25 you bring up some good points but let me clarify my position.

First, the age gap isn't the issue, I was just using it as fuel for the fire. The real problem is that it invalidates her feelings for me in my eyes. It took her 2 DAYS before jumping in bed with someone else. How long did she need to get over me? Hell we'd talked on the phone that day for 2 hours trying to work things out before she did it. What was I, chopped liver? May be ego bruising, but good God, how long did it really take her to get over me. Certainly didn't take her very long to get under someone else. How much could she ever really have loved me? How do I know that I'm nothing more than the "safe bet" to her? Plus, it is my business now that I've slept with her since then, even if just once. It was STUPID of me to jump in bed with her, that was my mistake. But in this day and age, where 1 in 4 teenage girls has an STD what do you think the stats are on college age people? Its very much my business who she slept with. I was perfectly in my bounds to ask for an STD test.

Second, a break means space. It doesn't mean break up. It doesn't matter that it usually turns into a break up, its still cheating while just a break. What if it hadn't turned into a break up and a few weeks later the break ended and we picked up the relationship again? Would what she did during the space not count as cheating. If it doesn't than by that logic, all I have to do any time I want to sleep with someone else is ask for a break, sleep with said person, than pick up the relationship where I left off. No harm no foul right? I wouldn't do this but I don't know that she won't.

Third, I have the right to know if I'm dating a cokehead. Coke people. We're not talking a little pot here and there, we're talking coke. A drug that can ruin her life and by extension my life if she's in it. She could be carrying in my car and I get pulled over and searched. They find it on her and I still get busted for having it in my vehicle. And on a personal level, what about the constant WORRY I would have to deal with if she is still on coke? She can KILL herself using it. At that point its not just her life, but the lives of EVERYONE that cares about her, that would be drastically affected. You ever lose someone you love to drugs? I have. My brother DIED overdosing on drugs. I won't lose someone else I love to them. Its not enough to say she's clean, she needs to prove it, to me and everyone else that cares about her. Its never just your life to do with as you please. Growing up, you realise that its everyone else's lives that yours affects and that the consequences of your actions hurt everyone in your life.

One of the things I'm taking time to myself to think about is how I can ever trust her again. Repeated lying. Cheating on 2 boyfriends. Doing serious drugs and lying to EVERYONE about it. I'm not trying to control her life, but I'm not willing to let her life drag my life down. When someone you love is hurting themselves, you step in. That isn't controlling, that's caring. If she where having thoughts of suicide and putting a gun to herr head every night, is it none of my business, or do I step in? If I see her doing drugs that could kill her, is it none of my business or do I step in? At some point you HAVE to step in. My choices are step in or walk away. I'm not puttig myself in a position to lose someone else I love to drugs. And to be honest I don't think with everything, that that one demand is enough for me to be considered controlling. And I know you didn't bring it up, but asking her not to speak to the guy again is very acceptable given the circumstances. It was a non-issue when I asked it of her and she had no problem with it.

Romefalls19 is exactly right about trust and that she severed my trust and furthermore my respect for her. I don't think I am being overly controlling. I asked 3 things of her and that was it. You guys only made an issue of one of them. I hope I made my position clear on it and why its so important to me because I want you guys to understand why. I have no more demands for her. Thouse 3 things were all I asked of her. I wouldn't drug test her for life, just maybe 3-4 times over the next 6 months. Enough to prove she's staying clean and that she isn't addicted. I don't believe her to be addicted, but I need to know she's staying clean.

If I was truly being controlling, she wouldn't have a choice about things. She does. She can accept the ONE big thing I asked of her or she can walk away. She chose to accept it. She AGREED to it. She even wants me to show the results to her parents as well so that they will stop worrying. They trust me. They don't trust her. She knows if I telll them the tests are negative, they'll believe she really is off coke. She accepted it so it shouldn't even be an issue.

Sorry for the lengthy reply, but I needed to clarify my positions and I'm trying to sort through everything in my head. I need time before I decide what to do. I don't know at what point I could ever trust her again. I don't know at what point I could ever be intimate with her without thinking about the other guy. I don't know if I can ever respect her again. I don't have any other demands of her. This isn't going to be a pattern of controlling behavior. Three conditions and that is all. Three conditions that she accepted. I hardly abused it when she said she'd do anything to keep me from walking out of her life. I only asked for three things.

confused25, I hope you can respect my reasons for everything. I hope you haven't lost respect for me now that I've told you why I asked for the things I asked for. And I'm sorry for offending you with the age thing, please realise I was looking at it from a personal point-of-view, and that I wasn't saying it is wrong for any people to be together with an age gap. I'm sure your parents are wonderful people to have raised a good guy like you and I don't see anything wrong with their age gap. It wasn't a morals thing, it was a personal thing.

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Originally Posted by Romefalls19

He isn't screwing up the second chance at all, he is going into this guarded as he should. This girl told him that they just made out and now that she feels she has him back, she is going to drop all the bombs onto him?

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This, my friend, describes exactly how I feel about it.

SJB, I have been in your situation exactly to a T! I did the whole this or that scenario with an ex and it's not a good route to go down. If you can't move past it with no restrictions then it's best to let it go

I know nothing but time could ever let me trust her again. Nothing I ask her to do will instantly restore my trust or respect for her. I look at her and see two people. The woman I love and know, and the woman that she was after we broke up. I love the first and Hate the second. I look at her with a sick mix of disgust and affection. Part of my want to throw up just looking at her and the other part wants to do nothing but hold her and kiss her. Its like I see her as two different people, but intellectually I know that its all just her as a whole. One person. It makes it easier in some regards to think of it as a different person as to not sully the image I have of her, but that's not reality. Her actions, while some would say they are her business (even when they directly affect me), speak for her character and the type of person she is. Restoring real trust and respect for her might take nothing short of an act of God, and I need some time to figure out if I want to give her the chance. I know there's nothing I can ask of her that will restore my trust in her. Only time, if I give her a chance.

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Only time, if I give her a chance.

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Red Flag? When you try to change someone into what you think they should be its not love, nor is it acceptance for who they are. Yes, I see a big problem with the path your on right now, as your finding out things you cannot accept, but you must acknowledge ...............you asked for it!

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Originally Posted by talaniman

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Originally Posted by SJB1701E

Only time, if I give her a chance.

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Red Flag? When you try to change someone into what you think they should be its not love, nor is it acceptance for who they are. Yes, I see a big problem with the path your on right now, as your finding out things you cannot accept, but you must acknowledge ...............you asked for it!

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Out of context tal... I wasn't saying I can change her over time, I was saying my respect and trust for her can only be gained again over time. She's wanting to be the person she used to be. She says she hates what she became. I believe her and I see her making the effort to do so ON HER OWN. I'm still going to think about this for a while and whether I can forgive her of her mistakes. I know I either have to accept her or not. I'm not wanting to change her. I just don't want to be in a position to be hurt again if she starts going down a dark and dangerous path again. I'm just being guarded. I'm not trying to change her. She's trying to change for herself and for her own well being. I believe her and I see it happening.

As for the drug testing, I talked to her today about a lot of things. I went back on what I said and decided to still do one drug test, and only one, just so I could get her parents off my back by giving them proof that she's off them. This will make both my life and hers easier if they stop worrying so much. She thought it was a great idea. She looked me in the eye and promised (on her own) that she won't use them anymore, that she hated what they did to her, and that she doesn't want to be that person anymore. That was good enough for me.

As for the other guy, it has nothing to do with his age or what or who he is. It has nothing to do with whether we were broke up or not. It has to do with my perception of her and my opinion of her. She jumped in bed with a guy two DAYS after we broke up like the two years we had together meant nothing to her. She took no time to grieve and wasn't upset at all. Like I meant NOTHING to her. That's where the hurt comes from. She called it revenge sex like she was getting back at me. She said I hurt her and at the time she wanted something to hurt me back with. She said it only made her feel worse and now that I found out she wished it never happen. She regrets it happened at all. I just got to figure out if its something I can get past.

[QUOTE=SJB1701E] She jumped in bed with a guy two DAYS after we broke up like the two years we had together meant nothing to her. She took no time to grieve and wasn't upset at all. Like I meant NOTHING to her.

Do you honestly think she split up with you and then just happened upon this guy only two days after you broke up. At best, she left you for him, at worst, she was seeing him when you were still together.

Remember, the best indicator of future behaviour is past actions. Be very careful.

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Originally Posted by Questions2007

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Originally Posted by SJB1701E

She jumped in bed with a guy two DAYS after we broke up like the two years we had together meant nothing to her. She took no time to grieve and wasn't upset at all. Like I meant NOTHING to her.

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Do you honestly think she split up with you and then just happened upon this guy only two days after you broke up. At best, she left you for him, at worst, she was seeing him when you were still together.

Remember, the best indicator of future behaviour is past actions. Be very careful.

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I'm not so naïve... I know that she was interested in him prior to the break up. I was being an uncaring jack@ss to her due to emotional problems of my own and not being able to cope with circumstances in other areas of my life. I shut her out emotionally months before the breakup. In her words, and I happen to agree with her on this, when she gave up on me, it was long after I had already given up on myself. She said I hated myself so much, it made it difficult for her to love me. She eventually gave up. I blame her for her actions, but I set myself up for her to leave me and for another guy to swoop in like a vulture. Vultures circle something when they know its going to die soon. This guy told her just what she wanted to hear and gave her what I stopped giving her. And the guy got what he wanted, a halfway decent lay. She started making out with him before we broke up. She slept with him after. I believe her on this. That being said, her leaving me for this guy appears the more likely senario in this case. That's how I see it. I also see him as nothing more than a rebound to her. I know its not the healthiest thing, and I know she is responsible for her own actions, but I do blame myself more than anyone for this whole mess.

I would also like to say she has admitted to making out with him before the breakup... i.e. cheating... and to sleeping with him after the break up. Its not like she's still lying to me. What would be the point? She's already told me the worst news. Even if she did sleep with him prior to the breakup, it wouldn't really make a difference at this point. Cheating is cheating no matter how far you actually go. You see, at this point there is no point to keep lying to me and hiding things from me. What difference would it make. It would be lying about pointles symantics. Anything short of "I had to abort his b@st@rd child" wouldn't really make a difference now would it? What news could she possibly be hiding at this point that would be worse than what she already told me? Even if she slept with him more than once it wouldn't make a difference. She can't really drop any worse bombs than she's already dropped.

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Originally Posted by SJB1701E

I would also like to say she has admitted to making out with him before the breakup... i.e. cheating... and to sleeping with him after the break up. Its not like shes still lying to me. What would be the point? Shes already told me the worst news. Even if she did sleep with him prior to the breakup, it wouldn't really make a difference at this point. Cheating is cheating no matter how far you actually go. You see, at this point there is no point to keep lying to me and hiding things from me. What difference would it make. It would be lying about pointles symantics. Anything short of "I had to abort his b@st@rd child" wouldn't really make a difference now would it? What news could she possibly be hiding at this point that would be worse than what she already told me? Even if she slept with him more than once it wouldn't make a difference. She can't really drop any worse bombs than shes already dropped.

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So why take someone back who has done that? I think you are making excuses for her, and I don't think she comprehends the way she has behaved. The red flags Tal refers to are clearly there.

Even if you do get back together, will you be able to forget this behaviour? If yes, go for it, if not, I think you could be storing up resentment for a later date.

I haven't made any decisions as of yet. Just sorting everything out. Like I said, I hold her fully responsible for her own actions. I also hold myself responsible for my actions. If you saw the shattered girl I see now, you would see she fully comprehends the scope of her actions, however only after she committed them. She understands what she did and the people it hurt and exactly what she became. I know this from observation. She saw herself in the mirror metaphorically speaking. She didn't think through the consequences of her actions before committing them, which is a testement to her maturity, but she realises what she has done after the fact and owns up to her mistakes, which also stands as a testement to her maturity.
I'm not making any decisions until I take time to think about things.

Or you could conclude her life was a wreck, and she wants you to save her from herself. Another red flag.

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Originally Posted by talaniman

Or you could conclude her life was a wreck, and she wants you to save her from herself. Another red flag.

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Absolutely. She is not some teenager either. She is a grown woman who should have her own life in control.

I think you should take a step back. Does she see you as the sticking plaster for her problems? In other words, was this behaviour she carried out inevitable no matter who she was with? If you think that is a possibility, you have another red flag. You do not want to spend your whole life being a nurse for someone.

You can only help someone so much, at some point they need to start helping themselves.