I hvnt heard about doc love.. but I hv read most of them too ! Some of them were so damn boring but I think david deangelo and ross jefferies books were good :p... there was one more.. I forgot the name of it... it was for boosting self confidence... that one brought the real change in me ! It was something like say this and that any idea which one is it ?

Yeah - it's like a light turns on! It's so easy to do.

The key is (sorry ladies) - NEVER put a woman a head of you. NEVER - don't do it.

Guy's. A few weeks into this now and I'm finding things tough. I guess the hardest thing is not knowing how she is and just basically missing her. Any words of wisdom out there that can help me through this? By the way I haven't called her and don't intend to, I just need help focusing...

Whoah! He's alive! :)

Really now... you're doing a good job... it gets kind of tough, but the result of being patient can only be good. You're just learning to live without her. It's tough, just as it's tough to, all of a sudden, work on things you've never done in your life. Just imagine someone picking you up on the street saying: "Yo dude, gotta come work with us on some rocket science project" with a gun pointed to your head :) It would be tough, you wouldn't know what is what - but you would keep trying.

Just do the same here... acknowledge it's hard, but just keep doing it!

Squonk - what happened when you met that one weekend?

The key is to keep busy - I went to the gym for 2 hours every day and work real hard when I went throug hsomething like this. Spent a lot of my time with my friends - also drank a lot (which I don't necessarily recommend). Also went on some dates - that helps a lot. I did get her back and it was great for a while.

You might want to call after 3 weeks or a month.

I assume she plans to marry?

Nice comment CroCivic91. I guess I need to grin and bare it, you are right, thanks. You know, the worst thing is that I keep thinking back to my last signing off email which basically said thanks for agreeing to not contact me etc. I went on to say that I felt used (because she had stated that she was not so good at relationships so early after previous relationships), which in hindsight was not a fair thing to say and I also said that all I ever wanted was to be together with her. I feel such a prat for saying this now. That is way too much pressure for her even after two years of dating. Looking back I can see that she was confused and the last thing she needed was heavy crap like that from me.

Hi Wildcat 21, the last weekend we met was before xmas. I knew she was reluctant to meet and the first 3 hours were bad. She hardly said a word until I said that we needed to sort things out. I asked what she wanted to do and she said she needed time and space. I said no problem. Once we had cleared the air she switched back to the girl I knew and loved - caring, relaxed, friendly, loving etc. The rest of the weekend was really nice. She said maybe we could meet for New Year but backed out of that a few weeks later. Then after New Year it was into the occasional "I miss you, I care for you, I wanted to hear your voice" calls. If I responded in the positive she backed off again.. weird stuff. I don't think making contact with her is my call any more. I mean she has agreed to let me go so I guess I should go. She definitely wants to marry but I think she is confused and scared about commitment. Reading between the lines I think there were aspects of me that she liked and aspects of her ex that she liked and she ended up beating herself up trying to figure out what to do. I gave her the "get out of jail free" card I think! Don't worry guy's I won't call...

I think it was just the way you approached this woman. You were just plain too available to her - big turnoff - you need other things in your life. You can't surrender to one woman - even when you are married you need to little bit of mystery and doubt going.

You can't be a 'nice guy'.

You have to be careful what you say - less is more!! Always with woman - less communicatin, less words, less time spent together.

Never contact a woman every day - never - unless you live with them - make them contact you.

" and I also said that all I ever wanted was to be together with her." Learn from - never say that again until your wedding DAY!

Hey Dude - Also - those akward moments need to be wiped out by humor. You needed to make her laugh - She HAS to equate you to FUN! FUN! FUN! And only fun. You should have grabed her hand and taken her somewhere - where ever you were was not the right seetting either.

And if there is a problem - you needed to talk about - ask what was wrong - I am sure something was bothering her - woman Won't come out and say what's wrong - you need to ask open-ended questions. Probe her out and get done to the bottom of what is bothering her - just letting her talk would have helped out a ton - as you LISTENED!! DON'T EVER try to solve her problems UNLESS she specifically asks.

It has been 5 months since I last saw her and 5 weeks since I last spoke to her directly. A week ago I sent her a letter.

I'm sorry guy's this may seem like a weak thing to do but I just wanted to set things straight regarding some stuff that I said in my last email to her 5 weeks previously when we finally agreed to split. Basically in that email I accused her of using me and came on a bit heavy. That response has been weighing heavily on my mind and as I have got stronger I felt ashamed of the comments, so the letter was an apology for those comments. I felt so much better because I was looking after my own needs.

Anyway, she sent me a text saying thanks and that she sort of expected something would come from me. I replied saying no worries. I didn't ask how she was or anything like that at all. It was just a pleasant short text. Two days later (and I wasn't expecting this) another text arrived saying that she was thinking about me and my letter that I was on her mind and that she would write back soon. I didn't respond.

So folks is this entering a new phase? How do I proceed. Personally I feel much stronger and more confident. I miss her but know I can live without her. I can naturally be myself now i.e. cool, strong and pleasant but aloof. I still think she needs to take time out to recover from her ex which is something that she has not done properly. Who knows she could be back with him. Of course it could be that she is sensing that she has lost control and is trying to re-establish her power. I need to be careful. If there is any chance for us in the future it has to be based on unconditional love when we are both ready, I have too many friends already!

Wildcat I need some advice! (or anyone else)

I received a load of texts from her last week saying that she misses me and thinks of me and asked if we would ever see each other again etc. It culminated in us talking by telephone for the first time in weeks. During this conversation she started to tell me why things happened the way they did. It seems that she needed to give herself time to get over her ex and that also there were pressures in our relationship that she could not cope with. i.e. me moving there etc. The therapy thing is still going on but it does sound at though she really has been very low i.e. depression. Anyway she said that she wanted to see me and we agreed two weeks time. She didn't want to hang up but eventually we did. During the conversation she asked if I was seeing anyone and whether I had dated anyone. I said that I had but it hadn't been serious. She really did sound very mixed up with her thoughts and I just tried to be calm and friendly and understanding.

We spoke the next day briefly and then I backed off because in the back of my mind I felt that this could be just another mood swing. Sure enough, after three days of no real contact I called her sensing that there was another shift in her thoughts. She told me she was scared of meeting in case things didn't work out well. I said I understand and I expect nothing. She said that I was the only one that she wanted to meet but wanted to feel totally right before meeting. I'm cool with this. I haven't spoken to her for two days now but I'm wondering if I should wait for her to contact me or try and encourage her and gently show her that we are starting over and that I need it slow too. etc. Any advice

It's great she contacted you if she is the woman for you.

BUT, it sounds like she is playing games.

I wouldn't contact her again - she may just be teasing you to see if she has you hooked still. Woman do this for sport. Wait for her to come to you.

ALSO - WHY are you so freaking serious with this woman - keep it light!!

You keep putting freaking pressure on her when you have zero barginning power. Understand?

WOMAN HATE to be presured. Make this woman laugh - but her chops for not calling or blowing her off - be funny and play hard to get.

You got to learn to keep it light - all you do isbe serious with this woman.

And don't ask for clarification from a woman - you probably keep taking steps backwards.

Here is your mission:

1. MAKE HER LAUGH!!
2. Talk about ANYTHING but the past
3. Tell her how great your life is going - NO NEGITIVES!!
4. Ask to get together
5. STOP asking for clarification in your relationship. STOP. Just let what happens happen!!
6. Quit putting pressure on her - keep things light and funny
7. DON'T SAY you care - show it!!
8. AND PLEASE for the love of GOD wait for her to contact you!! Even if it's a month!! Make her miss you. Make her feel that there is doubt I nyour relationship.
9. STOP showing her ALL your cards - OK? Be some what mysterious

To be honest I didn't get heavy talking about the past. It was her that wanted to do that. She told me that she wanted to because it was important to her. I was fun and positive and yes I teased her but it was her that wanted to tidy up the past. It was like she wanted to give me answers. I was cool with it and appreciated her honesty. It sounds like she has been very low and is still very confused about life etc. I was just listening most of the time.

I think I have all the bargaining power! If she thinks that I'm the one for her then she knows where to find me. It is her that has chosen to break up. If she has doubts then she has to address that. All I can do is continue to live my life. She wants to MSN and all that but I don't. I think that stuff is very confusing sometimes.

I agree - all that text messaging can put you in 'girlfriend' mode. I found out the very hard way putting a lot of stuff in writing to a woman who might not understand you completely can be terrible.

Maybe you just say - lets stop talking about the past. FRESH START! 2nd chance. Sounds like you both need that - it can work. They would most likely do wonders for her.

You both probably need to sit down and just talk. Why don't you just plan a weekend and just go see her - no expectations. Surprise - a lot of woman love suprises. But be prepared to stay somewhere else. Always try and keep it light.

I think you are spot on there. She really is a very deep thinker (like most people I guess) She asked me if us getting together again would be to continue what we had or start again and I said start again.

It is a strange process. There are periods of no contact then contact and then no contact again. Being confused about things means that she needs time to think about what we say to each other. It is never childish stuff, always very adult conversation but I can hear her brain ticking every time we talk.

If I could give one tip to anyone in this situation it is above all else behave in a calm, dignified way despite what the emotions are saying to you. By remaining calm and dignified you bring a maturity and wisdom to the thing that conveys strength in the face of something very traumatic. This will be interpretted in a positive way (eventually) by the dumpers!

ALWAYS stay positive. Listen to her. Sounds like you are learning and improving - remember - woman want to be led - make decisions - tell her you are coming next time she calls - you have to see her. Don't make her the prize - but I doubt you do because of what she has put you through.

*******

To tell you the truth, I may be going through some of the same things. I had been seeing a wonderful woman up until the end of February. She needed time/space - I gave it to her period end of story. Had not heard from her for 8 in weeks. All of a sudden she has been in contact the last 3 days. I was in love with this woman. We saw each other for 6 months. She is not like your woman - but asking a lot of questions and bringing up the past. Gorgeous woman - very intellegent, independent

I just don't know if I could go back. I think it's a real mind f--- for them to come back - don't you? It seems like she is trying to bring up old feelings that I burned away. She wants to get together - start fresh.

And I am seeing some one else. I have been seeing this gal for over a month. Is it fair to 'settle' for this gal, when I was in love with another gal?

I think that there is a common but complex theme running through the majority of the issues on forums like this. To be honest I will never be able to put my finger on it but what does come over loud and clear is that there appears to be an underlying fear from the dumper that they are losing control of their independence and freedom and they are not ready to surrender that independence until they are absolutely sure they have experienced all that there is on offer (even when, despite daily issues, their last relationship probably provided the best match they may ever have).

It is a human trait to want to believe that the grass is always greener and that "I deserve better!". Unfortunately 9 times out of 10 the grass isn't greener and guess what - they don't deserve better. The coming back thing several weeks/months later is I believe inquisativeness (based primarily on doubt and insecurity), which is designed to satisfy their curiosity and either confirm to themselves that their decision was right or to realise that they made a bad decision. Its like they are double checking that they did the right thing. If we as dumpee's all stand around waiting like idiots they are most likely going go "yep I did the right thing"!

That's why the no contact phase is so important for the dumpee. It is a time when they can re-discover themselves, get stronger, become more appealing and then most importantly rationalise the situation properly! We were dumped, rejected, discarded, thrown away, whatever, and that really really hurts. When that happens you can only do one thing. Close that chapter in that relationship there and then, take yourself off, lick your wounds and heal. There maybe a second chapter coming your way weeks, months, years ahead but if you go into that as the same person not having learnt fom your experiences then you will not succeed.

Wildcat, all the things you say to me about having to understand where I am in this cycle, why I am there and what I need to do to move on applies to all of us. You have moved on because you have met someone else and you think she is lovely. What you can't do now is use her as a pawn. Respect her, be honest with her, tell her. As I said before more than ever you need to keep your dignity here as that will be the strongest thing you have. Tell your ex that although you understand her actions she really hurt you. Tell her that you still love her but the trust that was there has for the moment gone and right now is not a good time to start rebuilding that trust. The chapter is closed, start a new one but do it with dignity with all who are involved.

Thanks. It is so f---ed up that she has called. Messed with my mind.

"independance and freedom and they are not ready to surrender that independence" - that is exactly what happened. Good catch - that's why we have to be LESS available - mysterious - 'People want what they can't have'. For some reason these gals realize they haven't heard from us and our lives are going on nicely without them.

See - I have had to learn from this stuff - I don't want this type of stuff to happen to anyone else. Heartache is avoidable if you manage the relationship right. With my ex-gal who just called I made a lot of mistakes because I thought it was different - most guys make this mistake. I think I was way too 'nice' to this one - I am normally not.

The other girl I am seeing I do need to tell her what is going on. I have some feelings stired that I did not think I had.

Square one - start over is the way to go - but I really need to decide. I sort cool with it when she told she need space/time and said OK. And now she wants to get back together - it was a good relationship for me. We will see - I am really taking it slow and I may go out of town just to try and figure it out.

Yes and you HAVE TO learn AND change. That's key. Build up barriers.

Keep things light going forward.

An after thought -

I think you are really on to something there with that "independence and freedom" - I think you need to keep that feeling going in them for the first few months or even 6. I think that goes with being less available to them all the time - not returning messages right away - not answering calls - being busy - not always making plans. NOT sharing your feelings - acting just happy hanging out with them.

These are not games - it's to build up attraction AND dependence.

I have a feeling we both may have surrender early. That may have gotten scared - coming on too strong. I usually don't do this at all - but then you find a woman you really like and things change. You want to be real nice to them - and that's bad for business.

I think it all has to do with putting pressure on them - THIS IS MY THEORY GOING FORWARD - if you want something in a relationship - try and make it look like there idea. I've used open ended questions to accomplish this.

I am still freaked out - she called last night while I was out with the other gal. I still haven't told the other gal.

Hey Wildcat,

Long time no chat. How are things going with your situation? I would love to know how things moved on...

After the last round of chat and making plans to meet my ex she has backed out once again and I haven't heard from her in four weeks. She really is screwed up and doesn't know what she wants. Her therapy is taking her to places that she doesn't want to go to and that is apparently tough for her. I just can't help thinking that she will meet someone else and drift off altogether.

I am keeping up NC and trying to move on but man it is so tough. Recovery is going to be a long slow process. She has left me well and truly damaged. I try to keep busy. The work situation is improving. I now have a couple of cool opportunities which I am waiting on. If one of those comes off then I can get cracking on my career again.

I would love to know how to forget things completely though and move on.

Any tips anyone?