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Originally Posted by Cat1864

First, you are attacking when you use a phrase like "who are guilty".
Second, you are angry. I don't think you want an answer or a debate as much as to start a fight to get something off your chest. Please, take a breath and calm down.

Third, everyone 'nags' in his/her own way. Most of the time the person doesn't realize he/she is nagging. Tone, word choice and actions can all be a part of 'nagging'.

Fourth, to someone who is expecting 'nagging' any type of criticism or questioning (even a friendly comment) can be seen as 'nagging'.

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I think it's awfully bold of you to draw such concrete conclusions of my state of mind based upon a few words. You are telling me that I'm angry and then you proceed to patronize me by telling me to take a breath. I come to this site to post questions with honest intentions seeking the thoughts, experiences and opinions of other people. Perhaps you are legitimately offended. I'm quite certain that you possess the patience to seek clarification before you jump to so many conclusions. I don't post every thought that comes to my head, but in order to assuage your hostility; I promise to post about nothing but snips and snails and puppy dog tails in the future.

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The girls told me every woman wants to change a man and if I resist too much, I'll always be alone. I guess their right.

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Not trying to hi-jack this thread, but the right woman will come along. Just be who you are. If you tend to be stubborn, then the next woman in your life with either have to accept that and deal with it or leave.

I've made up my mind about "changing". I am not "changing" for anyone except myself. I'm a fine individual as it is, barring some bad habits that I need to get rid of. If any woman wants to try and change me... good luck. The way I see it now, they originally fall in love with you for who you are when you first meet. When you allow them to "change" you, IMO, that's when you run into trouble.

Thanks guys! Here's a cyberhug!

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Originally Posted by inertia

The girls told me every woman wants to change a man and if I resist too much, I'll always be alone. I guess their right.

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I think you need to stop listening to those girls. They may want to change their 'mates', but 'every woman' doesn't. Don't let their opinions make decisions for you. They aren't you and only you and the woman you decide to date know what your relationship will be/is like and where it will go.

From some of the things you have written, I get the feeling that you watch other people's relationships a bit too closely. Remember that what you see is a public view and you only hear one side of what goes on behind closed doors. Try not to let those relationships define your own.

I think that someday when you least expect it that you will find the woman who will be willing to work together with you (and who you are willing to work with) to build something wonderful.

I have been married 23 years and both my husband and I have made changes to keep our relationship strong. There is give and take. Yes, we both 'nag' about certain things. However, it is more common to 'feel' like the other person is 'nagging' when they aren't. For the most part, those times seem to be responses that are held over from growing up with controlling parents who did 'nag'.

I wish you a very happy future.

Have to spread the good but here's one for you Cat!:-)

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Originally Posted by jmw0713

Not trying to hi-jack this thread, but the right woman will come along. Just be who you are. If you tend to be stubborn, then the next woman in your life with either have to accept that and deal with it or leave.

I've made up my mind about "changing". I am not "changing" for anyone except myself. I'm a fine individual as it is, barring some bad habits that I need to get rid of. If any woman wants to try and change me...good luck. The way I see it now, they originally fall in love with you for who you are when you first meet. When you allow them to "change" you, IMO, that's when you run into trouble.

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I'll listen if I agree. For example: I needed to save more and spend less (which I do now).
However, it becomes quite burdensome to hear about how flawed I am all the time. I'm my own worst critic (as we all are) and it doesn't need to be a four part harmony.

Ok other posters... I'm clearly outnumbered here. Thanks for focusing on how much of an A$$hole I am instead of proceeding to contribute to the discussion I am actually trying to have. In the most polite and politically correct terms that I am capable of constructing:

Due to such a large margin of error, the exact percentages of (gender neutral) partners in relationships who participate in making critical observations (whose effect on their loved one's self-esteem is immeasurable due to varying emotional thresholds) is unknown. Theoretically, should one encounter such a seeming anomalous situation; they may ask themselves (or others depending on Internet Access): Why would my (gender neutral) partner investigate my every weakness and repeat their results to me ad nauseum?

Cat (with a doberman),

Please stop drawing so many conclusions about me. I'm simply asking a general question. Obviously, with such a harmonious marriage; you see the world a bit differently. Good for you. However, perhaps my question is targeted to anyone else out there who hasn't made all of the wise decisions you have.

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Originally Posted by inertia

From my point of view; the nagging seemed to be a mixed bag of "for my own good" and "because she's never satisfied with anything (including herself)". I know a lot of women are just perfectionists and I'm not too different, but I focus my efforts and energy on myself. I don't tell other people how to improve their life (unless asked).

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Inertia, You are wise, and you pointed this correctly. One should focus on oneself more, definitely. This is a very good discussion going on, thanks to your for starting this thread. Sorry, it is sometimes at your expense. At the same time, I love to hear what everyone has to say about how they met success in their personal lives.

I think when the relationship is long term you got to have times when you find yourself telling the other person (and hearing the same) "Please, do this.. " or "Please, don't do this..." etc. Depending upon so many factors it can all be construed as nagging. I hear you that this sort of "feedback" is often unnecessary, and has to be limited. I like most naggers believe that I do not nag in excess :o.

I have learnt that the critical difference between in being a "constant critic" (and with it breaking the threshold tolerance of other person) and getting your point across is "appreciation"! If you want someone to tolerate your "nags" it should perhaps be done in the ratio of 10:1 (appreciation:nag)!!

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Originally Posted by smoothy

THe same behaviour many times when done by a guy can be considered controlling behaviour. Its all about perspective...and introspect. How would YOU feel if you was on the reciving end of someone elses "advice" on "making improvement".

See, there is usually more than one perspective and its not always the correct one. And anything done to excess can be considered an irritant to someone else.

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You are right, I need to book mark this in my mind!

I still think when you are together, however much accepting you are of the person (its not even about acceptance, you may even adore them!), there will be times when you will not like something. And you will tend to "suggest". And you will also be on the receiving end. Mainly in a long term relationship, people get adjusted to their new "normal" - for some it is more, for some it is less - but still nagging feels like nagging when it occurs! Why? Moderation helps, but I feel it may not be the key.

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Originally Posted by tara1

You are right, I need to book mark this in my mind!

I still think when you are together, however much accepting you are of the person (its not even about acceptance, you may even adore them!), there will be times when you will not like something. And you will tend to "suggest". And you will also be on the receiving end. Mainly in a long term relationship, people get adjusted to their new "normal" - for some it is more, for some it is less - but still nagging feels like nagging when it occurs! Why? Moderation helps, but i feel it may not be the key.

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Exactly... you are entitled to make a suggestion... maybe even nudge someone... but know when to back away as well. There are some things that just are and can't be changed while others can be with the right encouragement. Nobody likes to feel pushed or bullied into something... and that's where the nagging part applies (its a verbal form of bullying).

You know, It's not just women who do it. I've seen men try to change their partners as well. It's not all of them. It depends on the person and what they're looking for. Everybody has things to nitpick about. I try not to nitpick my boyfriend about every little thing, sometimes I still do, but that's part of life. On the contrary, he nitpicks quite a bit. He's not trying to CHANGE me, he's just temperamental.
A lot of it is just pet peevs or insecurities with most people, other times they're just controllling. I think it's a human thing, although I think it's more noticeable with females sometimes because a lot of them are just so out there with it. I don't think men care as much about little things to pick at, but I'm sure there's still things that bug them. Just food for thought.

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Originally Posted by ohsohappy

You know, It's not just women who do it. I've seen men try to change their partners as well. It's not all of them. it depends on the person and what they're looking for. Everybody has things to nitpick about. I try not to nitpick my boyfriend about every little thing, sometimes I still do, but that's part of life. On the contrary, he nitpicks quite a bit. He's not trying to CHANGE me, he's just tempermental.
A lot of it is just pet peevs or insecurities with most people, other times they're just controllling. I think it's a human thing, although I think it's more noticeable with females sometimes because a lot of them are just so out there with it. I don't think men care as much about little things to pick at, but i'm sure there's still things that bug them. Just food for thought.

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I feel nagging,like cursing or swearing or lying,or drinking is just a habit people have.Typically thought of as a habit that women have,specifically with the intention of annoying men(from a man's point of view),it's a necessary tool to remind a man do and say things(from a woman's point of view).

Is it a scheming trait that's used by women to steal their man's masculinity and reduce him to nothingness is a question that can be answered as best as answering a question like "why do men have roving eyes?".

Personally,I refuse to believe habits are gender-specific.Like its not only women who nag,it isn't only men who stare.Though frankly Inertia,apart from having a really grand debate on the topic,I fail to see what possible new insight your question can open up in the matter of men-women relationships:)Or is it just a point of having your curiosity in this (apparently insignificant)matter being satisfied?

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Originally Posted by Starry nights

Or is it just a point of having your curiosity in this (apparently insignificant)matter being satisfied?

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Is that so bad?

Actually this is quite a significant topic. Nagging (or anything perceived as nagging) kills the relationship slowly and surely!

I disagree starry nights, I actually think this is quite a significant topic, as it seems that men are increasingly feeling dominated, nagged or criticized by their partners - you just have to read many of the posts on this site!

Inertia is bringing this to our attention - and it's actually a really relevant topic, because as tara says, it contributes to relationship break down and lack of real communication between couples.

I can give you a prefect example. In my last relationship; I wasn't allowed to say "I'll make it up to you". In her mind; once the offense was committed (like being 5 minutes late), it just was. While this may seem easy; it eventually lead to me feeling guilty all the time. When you can't even make it up to someone; how do you atone? A friend of mine was telling me that his wife never takes his side when he is frustrated with someone. She always sides with the other person. I dealt with this too. Like... "Wow, that waitress has got a major attitude". GF or Wife: "Well it's your fault for asking for bread".

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Originally Posted by inertia

I can give you a prefect example. In my last relationship; I wasn't allowed to say "I'll make it up to you". In her mind; once the offense was committed (like being 5 minutes late), it just was. While this may seem easy; it eventually lead to me feeling guilty all the time. When you can't even make it up to someone; how do you atone? A friend of mine was telling me that his wife never takes his side when he is frustrated with someone. She always sides with the other person. I dealt with this too. Like... "Wow, that waitress has got a major attitude". GF or Wife: "Well it's your fault for asking for bread".

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If that's going on, there just might be something that the woman is unhappy about in the relationship. Or maybe her personality is just one that likes to disagree so that she can feel like she has control. You know that term "it might have been something that happened when they were a child"? Well, it's a legitimate term. About 85% of the way people think, feel, and react to things is subconcious. And because people don't usually think about their thinking, it makes it harder to correct difficult behaviors because they either don't know what to correct or why they are behaving they way they are in the first place. Like it was stated above, I don't think it's gender specific, but probably more prevalant in females.

Another thing is, look at how their mothers behave. If she is controlling or overbearing, the woman might nag because she was nagged at. She either thinks it's normal, or just wants to have some control because she is insecure and it makes her feel like she is strong and no one can tell her how to be. It's kind of like this, She was controlled and now she wants control. Make any sense?

Make sense?

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Originally Posted by Gemini54

I disagree starry nights, I actually think this is quite a significant topic, as it seems that men are increasingly feeling dominated, nagged or criticized by their partners - you just have to read many of the posts on this site!

Inertia is bringing this to our attention - and it's actually a really relevant topic, because as tara says, it contributes to relationship break down and lack of real communication between couples.

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There are worse habits than nagging that bring a relationship down,in my opinion,hence I really didn't understand why Inertia had initiated a discussion on a seemingly common and less-destructive habit like nagging,compared to other more dangerous habits:)I also have an issue with singling out nagging as a feminine trait and portray men as "victims" who feel threatened by that since I know quite a good number of nagging men.

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Originally Posted by Starry nights

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There are worse habits than nagging that bring a relationship down,in my opinion,hence I really didnt understand why Inertia had initiated a discussion on a seemingly common and less-destructive habit like nagging,compared to other more dangerous habits:)I also have an issue with singling out nagging as a feminine trait and portray men as "victims" who feel threatened by that since I know quite a good number of nagging men.

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Have I not recanted. This kind of defines... eh hem.

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Originally Posted by Starry nights

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There are worse habits than nagging that bring a relationship down,in my opinion,hence I really didnt understand why Inertia had initiated a discussion on a seemingly common and less-destructive habit like nagging,compared to other more dangerous habits:)I also have an issue with singling out nagging as a feminine trait and portray men as "victims" who feel threatened by that since I know quite a good number of nagging men.

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Fair enough, but I think what inertia is bringing to our notice is not 'nagging' per se. He's saying that with some women there is a deeply held sense of criticism of their male partners, so that they cannot accept them as they are, and that they want to control and somehow belittle them.

It's not an us versus them argument. Clearly there are men who do this to women in relationships too and there are also worse things that happen in relationships.

What inertia is asking, and it's his question, so why should we 'judge' it - why do some women do it - and why is it seemingly more pervasive in our society, this idea of the stupid, henpecked male?