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Did you sign the lease with that addendum in it? If so, then I doubt if you have a case. With that addendum, you should have inquired immediately if you were not billed. So that clause will, in all likelihood, put the onus back on you.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Scott,
Yes, we did. That's why I tried the finagle about who actually promised to make the change, even though I know it's probably a tad lame.
Excon,
I'm willing to let the deposit go if it will get this off my back. From what I've seen of this outfit, they would bend over backward to keep as much of it as they could anyway, and I figured going into this lease that the deposit $$ was probably throw-away money. My attitude right now is, if they don't sue, I won't. Whaddaya think?
If you signed that lease with that clause, you are on very thin ice. What is in writing always trumps a verbal commitment. I really don't see any way that a court won't hold you responsible for the utility bill.
I agree, if they don't sue, you don't.
How about if they can't decide what the amount is? The interim manager hand-delivered a letter from their lawyer yesterday - quite literally pounded on the door and brought a maintenance guy along, apparently thinking we might get violent or something - that said the amount was $621.56. We walked down to the office a little later and, making sure we were as polite as humanly possible, requested a copy of the utility bill in detail. I picked it up from them a little while ago. It includes a copy of that same letter, except that the amount in this copy is $587.08. I went through the bill and added up the charges for the months in question and got an answer that doesn't match either of these figures.
Is there anything in that little mess that I can use to our advantage?
No, If you are sued, you both present your calculations to the court and the court will pick one.
If you propose to without going to court, then you have to show your figures and negotiate the actual payment.
I talked with the management's lawyer today. She told me that the following paragraph in the lease precludes the estoppel idea. What do you guys think? Here it is:
I'm not totally sure what part she's talking about; the legalese gets a little thick at this point. But I think it's the stuff in the first paragraph. Is she correct?Quote:
MISCELLANEOUS. Neither we nor any of our representatives have made any oral promises, representations, or agreements. This Lease Contract is the entire agreement between you and us. Our representatives (including management personnel, employees, and agents) have no authority to waive, amend, or terminate this Lease Contract or any part of it, unless in writing, and no authority to make promises, representations, or agreements that impose security duties or other obligations on us or our representatives unless in writing. No action or omission of our representative will be considered a waiver of any subsequent violation, default, or time or place of performance. Our not enforcing or belatedly enforcing written-notice requirements, rental due dates, acceleration, liens, or other rights isn't a waiver under any circumstances. Except when notice or demand is required by statute, you waive any notice and demand for performance from us if you default. Written notice to or from our managers constitutes notice to or from us. Any person giving a notice under this Lease Contract should retain a copy of the memo, letter or fax that was given. Fax signatures are binding. All notices must be signed. Notices may not be given by email.
Exercising one remedy won't constitute an election or waiver of other remedies. Unless prohibited by law or the respective insurance policies, insurance subrogation is waived by all parties. All remedies are cumulative. No employee, agent, or management company is personally liable for any of our contractual, statutory, or other obligations merely by virtue of acting on our behalf. This Lease Contract binds subsequent owners. Neither an invalid clause nor the omission of initials on any page invalidates this Lease Contract. All notices and documents may be in English and, at our option, in any language that you read or speak. All provisions regarding our non-liability and non-duty apply to our employees, agents, and management companies. This Lease Contract is subordinate or superior to existing and future recorded mortgages, at lender's option. All lease obligations must be performed in the county where the apartment is located.
WAIVER OF JURY TRIAL. To minimize legal expenses and, to the extent allowed by law, you and we agree that a trial of any lawsuit based on statute common law, and/or related to this Lease Contract shall be to a judge and not a jury.
Pretty much!
Oh well. I guess I know what's happened; in fact, I can use one of my favorite Sidney Sheldon lines. This guy has just scammed some big shots, but he did it in a way that was absolutely legal. A lawyer tells one of the guys (I paraphrase):
"In the legal parlance of one of my colleagues, you've been royally screwed."
I will definitely read the next lease I'm presented very, veeeery carefully.
Hello again, d:
If you hadn't given me a reddie, I'd help you beat them, still. But, you did. Now, if you want my help, you've got to do some groveling, and you might have to send money. I don't know. It depends on how well you grovel.
excon
*bows down, licks boots* *smiles real big* Did I ever tell you you have very nice eyes? *kneel and plead* what else you want?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
I'm still figuring out how this site works, and couldn't find anything in the TOS that explained the agree/disagree thing. Major apologies!! Is there a way to retract it?
One thing their lawyer did suggest to me was talking to an outfit called something like the Housing Justice Protection. I'm going to try to do that tomorrow, time permitting.
Hello d:Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Yeah... I had this page of ALL green going on, and then you had to come along and spoil it. Dude! Well, it's not the first reddie I've gotten, and it won't be the last. At least you didn't do it maliciously.
The lady lawyer is correct, in that, she defended her client, and got you to run away. That's her job and she did it well. Whether she's correct on the LAW or not, remains to be determined. That would be, of course, IF you have the balls to take them to court for your deposit. They'll counter sue for the bill and it'll be game on.
In my view, you have NOTHING to lose by suing them and EVERYTHING to gain.
excon
PS> This is what she says your agreement means, "Our not enforcing or belatedly enforcing written-notice requirements, rental due dates, acceleration, liens, or other rights isn't a waiver under any circumstances."
The LAW, however, says something else. You'll find that law under estoppel
Ex,
I didn't even know what a "reddie" or a "greenie" was until you pointed out my error; what little information I've been able to find on that system is buried so deep it took me nearly an hour to find out what it's all about. It would be good if there was a simple explanation of the rep system for new folks like me to find BEFORE we make a mistake like I did. Anyway...
I'm interested in checking out the law you're talking about; still, as I said before, I always consider such deposits throw-aways, and if I can get out of this losing nothing more than that, I'll be satisfied. But the estoppel thing really has me curious. Where might I start looking for more info?
Thanks! (both for the info and for forgiveness... )
Hello again, d:Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
I'm going to forward your post to the people who can DO something about it.
In terms of your situation, you need to understand some stuff. At THIS point in time, the LAW has LITTLE to DO with it. THIS is the time for INTIMIDATION. So far, it's YOU whose been intimidated. Certainly, if they know you're going to lay down for your deposit, they KNOW you're going to lay down for this bill.
Now, I don't know how the law is going to square with the language in their contract. YOU don't either, and you've admitted as much... And, I promise you, if you read up on estoppel, you're going to be even MORE confused.. Does the lady attorney KNOW what she said is the LAW?? NO, she doesn't. Is a judge who you're going to be in front of know the law? Maybe and maybe not. That's why they have appeals.
Part and parcel of the intimidation process, is making the apartment complex THINK that their very expensive attorney is going to cost them a lot more than the few hundred they're owed. The only was they are going to consider such an idea is if they know you're going to fight them every step of the way - and you don't have an expensive attorney on retainer...
So, don't throw away one nickel of the money that you're entitled to.
excon
Okay, I'm with you so far. I suppose I should set out my basic philosophy of such things.
For me, it's not so much about winning as about doing what's most expedient for my family. If I can get the deposit back, well and good. If I can twist some nasty people's whatchamacallits in the process, even better. But I'm 56 years old, my wife of 30 years has just had surgery and is still in a lot of pain, and I'm sitting here trying to evaluate the best use of my time and energy as it regards this whole thing.
The other thing is, several years ago I had an epiphany of sorts: it's just money. In the Grand Scheme Of Things, frankly not that important. I view money like I view a lot of other things: it's a tool, a means to an end. That end is my family. As I said, I've been married to the same woman for 30 years, and have been privileged to raise three incredible kids. My goal in most everything I do is not only to serve them as best I can, but to build memories for myself and for them while we can. Money, jobs, all that stuff, are tools for doing those things. And when it comes to money, I sort of hold it very loosely, because there's always a way to get more. (I credit Bernie Rhodenbarr with this last insight, which is probably more than a little kinky.)
At the same time, if I can get the deposit back without gobbling up too much of the time and energy that I have left on this earth, that's good, too. So my goal here is to balance one versus the other, and try to decide which approach is best going to serve my primary goal in life.
I hope that clears up my view. Frankly, because of that approach, I'm not intimidated in the least. Because in the long run, these people can't hurt me. And letting that deposit go would be a non-event for me. Getting it back would allow me to get some new scuba equipment :D so I'm open to that idea.
Will I be hearing from whoever you forwarded the post to, then? I'm also wondering what I should do in the meantime. The lease is up the end of April, and I'm probably going to give notice today. I was more or less planning to go suggest that they wait for the deposit once we move out, but decline to commit anything along those lines to writing. Offer it by innuendo, so to speak. But here's what the lawyer letter said: we have until the end of today to pay up, and if we don't, the "landlord" will issue a 10 day notice to comply or vacate which could lead to eviction. Now, I know that eviction is a long, involved process and we could really jerk them around during that time. But I'm thinking I probably don't want something like that on our record, so what do you think of my little stalling tactic?
Hello again, d:
Couple things. I'm only talking about writing a few letters. To me, it's worth a couple hours to save a couple grand. I'm not into making trouble just for the sake of making trouble.
I think I mentioned a strategy for your departure earlier.. Nonetheless, screw their eviction threat. You'll be gone LONG before a hearing can be held making that procedure moot. You'll probably be filing in that same court for your deposit back, or you'll be countersuing them. In any case, the eviction will NEVER happen.
excon
PS> Nahh. If they fix the FAQ or whatever to make the reddie/greenie thing more understandable, that's going to happen or not. I'm sure they're not going to let ME know, and I'm sure they're not going to let YOU know.
Nope. I'm stuck with the reddie forever.
Another glaring omission on my part. The refundable part of my deposit is only $400. That's why I'm not going ballistic about the idea of losing it. And the electric bill thing is $587. If I could get them to settle for the deposit and get this stupid thing over with, I'd be satisfied.
So, because of the absurdly-long process of the eviction thing, you think I should just let them dangle? I do need to give proper move-out notice, but should I discuss this thing at all when I do? Or just hand them a sealed envelope with the "we're moving out at the end of our lease" letter and leave?
I wonder if the programmers and powers-that-be could be convinced to add a little "What's this?" link to the agree/disagree box? That would make life much simpler for dodos like me.
The "D" is for Dave, by the way.
Hello again, d:Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
Apparently, I didn't. You've done enough talking about THIS situation for the time being. They KNOW you're not satisfied.. But, before you take it to the next level, deal with your move out. Yes, give them written notice, sent CERTIFIED. Clean the place immaculately. Arrange for a walkthrough with your landlord by certified mail, and when you meet them there, take pictures. When you vacate, send a demand letter to the landlord regarding your deposit. In Washington, he has 14 days to return it OR an explanation of why it wasn't returned.
Only then will you know who owes who what. IF they sue you for this bill before you actually vacate, that's the court where you'll countersue for your deposit. Make sure all your rent is paid, so that the issue is strictly the electric bill and NOT rent. The eviction court is as good as any court to have your complaints heard.
Not knowing how much time is left on your lease, I can't say one hearing would occur before another. Certainly, if you ARE sued for eviction, you'll have a chance to explain to the judge in your answer that you're already leaving, and you're asking for a continuance until the security deposit issue becomes clear. You'll get it.
excon
If you are evicted you will be charged the court filing fees and the attorney's fees for their attorney to show up. Keep that in mind that this could amount to several hundred dollars.
Also, if they do serve you with the eviction there will be a hearing scheduled which can be either 1 week or 2 weeks away depending on how backed up the court docket is. Then when you are in front of the Judge he may decide to have you ejected immediately or give you 10 days in which to leave the premises.
In any event, an eviction is NOT a long, drawn out process as you think it is. It is a relatively quick court proceeding that can take about a month to happen.
You're confusing a loan foreclosure on a house which can take months and months to happen. An eviction can be pretty quick since they can accelerate it due to you not paying the electric bill. If they went down to the courthouse Monday, they could technically file the eviction suit.
Hello twink:Quote:
Originally Posted by twinkiedooter
As usual, we don't disagree - much...
Whenever the hearing is, the OP will have filed his answer, and it's a good a time as any to have the issue adjudicated. Should the OP lose, and he certainly might, he'll have the opportunity to pay, and the eviction will be dismissed. Although the court COULD assess attorney's fees, in this instance, I doubt they would. Those would only be assessed if the OP's claim was frivolous, and I don't believe it is.
On the other hand, the judge could throw him out on his ear. There ain't no guarantees when you put these folks in charge of your life.
excon
Uh, he could have the opportunity to pay only if the landlord accepts his payment which in some instances the landlord actually refused to accept payment and the party gets evicted. Some landlords can be real sh*ts if they want to be. (I've seen some do this).
OP said:
But here's what the lawyer letter said: we have until the end of today to pay up, and if we don't, the "landlord" will issue a 10 day notice to comply or vacate which could lead to eviction.
Basically the landlord is going to turn this over to his pricey lawyer to handle regardless of the cost as the cost can be passed on to the tenant. He's already done this by having the lawyer send you the letter informing you of the landlord's intentions.
I'm surprised that since you've used the electric and only had to pay for 4 months of your use that you'd even want to consider "jerking" them around more. You've already gotten several months free electricity and you said you're willing to throw away your $400 deposit money.
Won't it cost you more to move out, get another apartment, put down another deposit (and possibly an electricity deposit as well) than to pay the $500+ electricity bill and stay at your present place?
Sounds like you just want to dodge your responsibility in order to fund your new scuba gear project. You're going to spend more money in the long run than you would if you just paid the money. You're not "jerking" anyone around but yourself in this scenerio regardless of how many times I read and re-read your posts.
The timetable as it sits now:
Today is supposed to be the deadline to pay up or risk the 10-day notice thing, which is not an eviction notice.
Lease is up April 30. We've already arranged a new place and will begin moving into it April 15, or a tad under 3 weeks from now.
What I'm thinking: simply ask for more time, with implications and evasive references to the deposit. IOW, stall. In that regard, I can BS with the best of them. Later on, if necessary, I can be as big a jerk as the circumstances require, but for now I'd be happy just to get them to hold off until we're on our way out of here.
Thoughts?
Twinkie, you have thoroughly misread almost everything I wrote. We had already arranged another place to live before any of this came up, because this place is just too small for us (plus the maintenance and such is a cluster-****). Moving out has nothing at all to do with this situation. And in case you missed the little smiley thing, the scuba comment was a J-O-K-E. And I've already made arrangements with the electric company to fold the 3 months into the new place and work out a payment plan. None of that stuff enters into it.
If you've already made arrangements with the electric company to pay 3 months what about the 4th month? Also, have you informed your landlord that YOU are going to be paying the electric company yourself and leaving them out of this?
Ok, so you will be getting the 10 day pay up or vacate notice shortly. If you don't get it today more than likely you'll get it Monday. It's almost April anyway. If you don't pay for April's rent and you leave on the 15th your landlord probably will file the eviction and ding you for April's rent.
You don't have to allude to any deposit when dealing with them as they will be keeping it anyway thinking they're entitled to it.
More than likely you will be moving out by the time they've gone down to file the eviction suit anyway.
The 4-month thing was apparently a mistake on the landlord's part, because when I talked to the electric company they said they would only bill me for 3 months. That portion of it isn't part of what the landlord is asking for, just the part that they actually got billed for. Right now I'm trying to decide if I should go down there and ask for more time in order to stave off the 10-day notice. Thoughts?
I tried to go talk to them, but the person causing all the trouble wasn't there, of course. I spoke with the assistant, who is a very nice person, and she logged my appearance and my request for more time. I also contacted the lawyer again and suggested that she could help me get more time. Since the lawyer pointed me to some places that could help, I figure she should help me stall. And now that it's the weekend, of course, nothing's going to happen.
Twinkie, I fully intend to pay the April rent. We'll BEGIN moving on the 15th, but since all we have is two minivans and a Jeep Cherokee to move with, we can use the extra breathing space between the 15th and the end of the month. Plus, I don't want to give them any excuse to try and besmirch my name, especially for non-payment of rent.
We now pause while the entire place rolls up the sidewalks for the weekend...
Well, I tried to talk to this woman again, and it's frankly impossible. She now says she can take the electric bill out of my April rent payment and then declare me delinquent on the rent if she wants to. I find that hard to believe?? Supposedly her lawyer told me this, but that's not true because this is the first I've heard of such an idea. Can she really do that?
So either nobody knows or nobody cares?
Hello again, d:Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
I told you what to do. You want to do something else. Maybe you know better.
excon
No, you were right. I should have given up trying to talk to her and all I did was give myself a headache. But my question is, can she do that little maneuver with my rent payment?Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
The likelihood is yes. If there are outstanding fees open, they could apply your payment to those fees.
Hello again, d:Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
The very nature of your question indicates that YOU, are the one being intimidated here. How she allocates your rent payment only matters if you LET her allocate your rent that way. Had you followed my advice, you would already KNOW that this dispute is going wind up in front of a judge, and that's where your legal questions will finally be answered.
Look, the bottom line here is this. IF you win on the estoppel issue, you won't OWE the bill. IF you don't, you WILL. What you paid in rent, and/or how ever the deposit issue works out, you will owe them money, or they'll owe you money. It's simple math. It doesn't matter HOW your landlord decides to "allocate" this money.
excon
Ex,
I'm not so much intimidated as baffled. I haven't seen anything in the lease that suggests such an idea, and she flat-out lied to me when she claimed the lawyer told me this stuff. Basically, this woman has the ethics of a cat in heat. She kept trying to get me to commit to applying the deposit to this electric bill and I kept hedging, refusing to say as much. I said I would be open to entertaining the idea, and that was as far as I would go. But I have no doubt that she is telling the lawyer I agreed to it.
I couldn't care less about the money. Frankly, I consider money a necessary evil, and refuse to let it dominate any aspect of my life when there are plenty of things that are so much more important. At this point I'm just curious about this idea, because it kind of blindsided me.
OTOH, you said "How she allocates your rent payment only matters if you LET her allocate your rent that way." How would I go about NOT letting her do so? Or is that something that would be sorted out in court later, regardless of what she does right now?
Bear in mind I'm a total ignoramus when it comes to this legal crap.
Hello d:Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
You sue her.
I don't buy your "I don't care about the money BS. If that was so, you'da paid the bill. Instead you've been hocking us about for for a couple weeks. And, if you DON'T care about the money, you SHOULD, if only to keep score.
excon
As far as just paying the bill, it was a choice of doing that or having a deposit to put on the new place. Since we had already chosen the new place and put down a partial deposit, I opted for the latter. In addition, if it's really something I DON'T owe, I'm not into throwing my funds down a well, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
When I say I don't care about money, I mean in the Grand Scheme Of Things. It doesn't dominate my life, and as long as there's enough coming in to get along I'm happy. If there isn't, well, as Lawrence Block's character Bernie Rhodenbarr said, there are always ways to get more. Hence, in the long run - or even the short run - this person can't really hurt me. She can be a nuisance, but that's about all. She keeps trying to threaten me with collection, as if that's the worst thing in the world. I've been there and it's no big deal. When she tries to throw that at me, it's all I can do to keep from laughing out loud.
As far as the whole question of this stuff goes, I'm more interested in them taking responsibility for their own screw-up. Legal wranglings aside, it would just be nice to see a corporate clone like this one say "Yes, we goofed. We'll fix it." That's more than a bit naïve, I know, but that's the main reason I'm doing this. The other reason is just to keep them off my back until we get moved, so I can concentrate on that.
So, if I'm reading you right, you're saying that if she does do that, we immediately sue her? Do I have that right?
Hello again, d:Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
I'm sure I told you exactly what to do earlier. I'm sure it included something like going through the move out process, demanding your deposit, WAITING until THAT issue is resolved, and THEN file suit.
excon
Also bear in mind that it doesn't take much to confuse me... :confused:Quote:
Originally Posted by excon
One more little quick question, just for clarification. You said "give them written notice, sent CERTIFIED."
They have their own fancy-pants form, which I got from the assistant manager a few days ago. My intention is to turn it in to her (not to the witchy-woman), have her sign and date it, and then get a copy. Will that suffice, or should I still send a certified letter in addition?
Hello again, d:Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
How come you always want to do something OTHER than what I told you??
excon
I told you, it doesn't take much to confuse me... so ignore their form and send a letter, or send the form certified?
Hello again, d:Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Do THAT. You know that you can go read this thread in its entirety any time you become confused.
excon
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