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Hello:
You right wingers are soooo wrong. You live in a fantasy world. You don't know how the real world works. We'd be better off if you came down to earth. Here's just a sampling of your wrongness:
The border: If we just cracked down on the border, we'll stop illegal aliens.
The drug war: If we just cracked down, we can end drug use.
The Iraq war: If we just cracked down on the insurgency, we can stop it.
Bwa, ha ha ha ha. You guys really crack me up.
excon
And your solution to end the woes of the world Mr. DemaCon?
Hello magdude:Quote:
Originally Posted by magprob
Glad you asked. Here's the solution to:
The border; allow enough workers to legally enter, and then we can keep out the ones we don't want. Amnesty and citizenship for the one's already here.
The drug war; legalize and regulate,
The Iraq war; leave.
NEXT!
excon
Then vote for Hillary and your wish will be granted.
Socialism - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Why should someone who entered this country as a criminal be granted amnesty, much less citizenship? They entered this country illegally, why should they be rewarded for that? Isn't that an insult to those who did it properly? I'm not saying, "ship 'em all home on a bus" but I don't think they should be rewarded with citizenship. Residency, sure, but citizenship, nope.
The drug war is tough because if you legalize you run into a lot of regulation problems. It's illegal to drink and drive, yes? How does a cop check your sobriety on the street when he pulls you over? Breath test. There is no such test for cocaine, pot, meth, etc. So what happens when someone high on coke gets pulled over? How does the cop quickly and reliably test for intoxication? Surely you don't think we should allow people to drive all hopped up on heroin?! :) That being said, I think the war on drugs is failing, but at this point, I don't see how we could legalize it and not have more problems than we have now.
The Iraq war, well we need to get out, but it has to be done properly. Right now the Iraqi govt is very fragile, and if we take off, it's possible extremist groups could move in an take over. That would spell trouble. The fact that we are there in the first place... well... that's another subject!
Hello jillian;Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
Sure, residency is cool. At least it takes into account the reality that we CAN'T ship 12 million people out of here.
No, I didn't say driving while stoned was OK. I also don't think it's OK to steal for drugs in case you were wondering.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
If it's failing shouldn't we try something else? Or should we continue to fail? Even a dumb rat will stop going down a tunnel if he doesn't find any cheese there.
It hasn't yet been established, at least to me, that the govt ISN'T an extremist group themselves.Quote:
Originally Posted by jillianleab
excon
No, shipping 12 million people out of here is unreasonable. Logistics aside, think of the cost?? I know there are a lot of people who "hate them illegals!" but how many of them would be willing to pay a significant tax to "get em out"? Probably not to many! In my opinion, imposing a fine, back taxes, whatever is acceptable, and give the people who do so the ability to apply to legal status. But, I think if you entered this country illegally, you should never be allowed to become a citizen. I go back and fourth about deporting people who have been here less than X-period of time, but it probably wouldn't work because they'd have to give themselves up. The illegals who are caught doing illegal things (drugs, assault, whatever) should be deported immediately. Our jails are crowded enough with US citizens, and maybe if someone thought they could get deported for boosting a car, they'd think twice!
I didn't think you were an advocate of driving stoned! :) I doubt most people are! I agree the "war on drugs" should be reformed, because it's not working as it stands. I don't know what the better solution would be, but legalization would cause a lot more problems. The laws on possession are a little silly; people who have an oz of pot are being locked up for years, which just overcrowds the jails and costs taxpayers money. Maybe the war needs to be directed more toward the big guys - the ones who bring in 600 kilos of heroin. Stupid teens caught with a dime bag can learn their lesson outside of jail!
You're right, the Iraqi govt has not fully established that they won't be extremist. What I was referring to was an outside group coming in (Al Quadia or something) and deciding to use Iraq as their base of operations. That's not to say the govt won't go that way anyway, but I'm trying to look on the positive side that they have a constitution and are giving democracy a shot. It's a mess over there for sure, and I don't think anyone has the right solution. I mean really, pull out and it can backfire, stay there and it can backfire. I'm glad I'm not president!
It will take at least 3,000 years to convert any Iraqi government from tribal to democratic. It stems back to Muhammad and his successors and the problem of which one was actually the one chosen by Muhammad to lead the Islamic world. Hence, the different tribes and their constant and long struggle to be the ultimate rulers of the middle east. It will never stop.
It is completely out of the hands of any Christian nation. If Bush can convert them all into Christians, He might have a chance! I don't think that will happen. We will never find a solution to that problem. We will just keep throwing dollars and American lives at it. Insanity is doing the same thing over and over, expecting different results.
magprob you're right that it will take a long time to get the Iraqi govt fully democratic (might not ever happen), but we can at least give them a push in the right direction. The people there will never be as "free" as we are in the US and other Western Worlds, but I think a lot of that stems from their difference in religious beliefs (Christian v Islam). A democratic govt which provides citizens with free and fair elections, mostly free of corruption, voting rights for all adults, widespread education, etc will take the country places it could never have imagined. If the govt has legitimacy with the Iraqi people, the nation has the potential to perform better on the global market. We can't force them, but we can nudge them in the right direction. It will be up to the Iraqi officials to convince the citizens it is possible to modernize. We as a Western nations (and being the big bad US) can't do that.
I don't think Bush could convert anyone to being Christian... maybe drive them away from it though!
It's a shame so much money and so many lives are being lost over there, but the fact is we are there and we have to help fix what we broke. How reasonable would it be to go in, destroy their govt and then pick up and leave? We probably can't give it a 100% fix, but we can at least give it a bandaid, maybe even a few stitches to keep it together.
Why does everyone keep saying that sending 12 million people home is impossible??
You do 100,000 a month till it is done?
But they all got here by thierself, if there is NO jobs at all, no welfare at all, they will go home by thierself, if they know they face jail time here if caught and they can't work. They will go home many by thierself,
** or maybe move to Canada where they can get all of those free welfare services there right?
But nothing will help until the border is closed, expect in a few years there will be 20 million, then 30 million.
Perhaps we should just bring the troops home from Iraq and invade Mexico and make it a state, or several states,
1. Got to hire people to track them down
2. Got to track them down
3. Got to prove they are illegal
4. Got to ship them and their whole families to their country of origin
There will always be jobs for illegals because people will always pull up to the 7-11 and hire them. In my area, there's a ton of immigrants (might be illegal, might not) who are pushing around ice cream carts on hot days and at community sports events. They make their own living. The welfare and public assistance thing, well... no, only legal residents and citizens should be getting that!
I don't know that illegal immigrants would go home; life here is often better than life in their home country, no matter how bad it is here. Plus we have a lot of "bleeding heart liberals" who don't want to hurt anyone's feelings!
That's what we ought to do. I really want a beach house on Baja, without the Mexican police.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
I'm taking the baitQuote:
Originally Posted by excon
The border 1] got to close it first, wall and more troops
2] I think it would be inhumane and logistically impossible to track down and
Deport all illegals. I believe the majority want to work hard and make a
Better life for themselves.
3] No amnesty - voluntary registration. Health and criminal screening to
Qualify toward citizenship. Deport all the illegals in prison. No benefits for
Illegals. Penalties for corporations that hire illegals.
The drug war - mandatory rehab/ separate drying out prisons. No benefits [ health , ssi housing]. If you fail. I don't believe in legalizing. Legal drugs [ alcohol, pain meds, nicotine ] are abused also. Doesn't change the problem.
Iraq war - I don't know - I'm in favor of letting the Iraquis sink or swim and bringing our trrops home.
I want to live in a fantasy world :> Aldo Nova?
Grace and Peace
inthebox the only problem with not allowing benefits like health insurance to those who relapse is that relapse is a very common part of recovery. Besides, health insurance is privatized; users would just pay higher premiums, right? I do like your idea about separate prisons though. If we are going to jail pushers they are probably better off NOT being exposed to rapists, murderers, etc. Though then you have the problem of all the druggies in one place and getting in cahoots with one another.
excon
You continue to give us absolutes . If we can't stop all illegal border crossing you say we should not try at all. If we cannot interdict all the drugs we should not attempt it at all. By your logic we should not try to prevent murders because we will never be 100% successful in doing so.
These are not the point. I guarantee that if enough of the illegals were prevented from entering there would be far fewer attempts at it. That along with a crack down on employers ;national IDs that are not easily forgeable ,there would be a reduction in expectations by those who would attempt it . Thus making the illegal immigration problem manageable .
At that point we could logically determine what to do with existing illegals and have an honest debate about what our future immigration needs are .
The same rational applies to drug enforcement . Really the only question is if it's worth the effort . That is an honest debate ,but you know as well as I that tougher enforcement would reduce the illegal drug supply and abusers .
This would be the legislation I would propose :
It is a felony to be an illegal alien
Immigrants are to be :
In the country legally
Have the means to sustain themselves economically
Not destined to be burdens on society (no welfare services)
Of economic and social benefit to society
Of good character and have no criminal records
Contributors to the general well-being of the nation
Immigration authorities have a record of each foreign visitor;
Foreign visitors do not violate their visa status;
Foreign visitors are banned from interfering in the country's internal politics;
Foreign visitors who enter under false pretenses are imprisoned or deported;
Foreign visitors violating the terms of their entry are imprisoned or deported;
Those who aid in illegal immigration will be sent to prison.
Foreigners with fake papers, or who enter the country under false pretenses, may be imprisoned
Foreigners with fake immigration papers may be fined or imprisoned.
Foreigners who sign government documents "with a signature that is false or different from that which he normally uses" are subject to fine and imprisonment.
Foreigners who fail to obey a deportation order are to be punished.Foreigners who are deported and attempt to re-enter the country without authorization can be imprisoned for up to 10 years. Foreigners who violate the terms of their visa may be sentenced to up to six years in prison
Foreigners may be barred from the country if their presence upsets "the equilibrium of the national demographics,"
Federal, local and municipal police must cooperate with federal immigration authorities upon request, i.e. to assist in the arrests of illegal immigrants.
Foreigners may purchase some property but can be restricted from purchasing choice real estate on the coast. Foreigners are prohibited from waving their national flag or in participating in protests against the country .
You might say these laws are unrealistic and harsh. But these are the very laws that the Mexican govt. has on the books. They deport more people crossing over their border with Guatemala then we do crossing our large border .
Hello again, tom:
I don't care what laws Mexico has, any more than you care what the UN thinks. We're NOT them.
I think we're different from the rest of the world. Dare I say - progressive? So, I think our laws should reflect that view. Indeed, I thought that view WAS reflected for all the world to see. Its inscribed somewhere, maybe on the Statue of Liberty, maybe on Ellis Island - I don't know - I don't care.
"Give us your weak, your tired, your hungry (your leaf blowers and your maids)......."
We've been happy having it that way for over 50 years. It didn't bother us then, and if the truth be told, it doesn't bother us now. What bothers us, is a border that terrorists can sneak across. And, it should.
However, we're not going to solve THAT problem as long as we call it something else, like an immigration problem. In order to solve THAT problem, we need to start speaking some truth around here. Here's some truth: There were no Mexicans on the planes that hit the towers.
Here's some more truth. You right wingers want people to cross legally (wink, wink), but our present immigration laws make that impossible for the average poor Mexican. Right now it costs about $5,000 and it takes about 5 years. That's not immigration. That's a blockade. Faced with an impossible task, you wonder why he takes the direct route to a job. I don't wonder.
So, rather than do nothing, I think we need to fix the immigration laws so that we can let in enough workers to blow our leaves and pick our lettuce. It shouldn't take more than a month and I don't know why it costs anything at all.
IF we did that, then we could be pretty sure that anybody sneaking in is not coming in to wash your dishes. I think we should guard against that with all our resources.
What do we do with those already here? Give 'em a path to citizenship - a real path. I know you want to punish them. Right wingers can't help themselves in that regard. They want to punish anybody who isn't rich. But, in the words of my friend Archie Bunker, stifle yourself, Edith.
excon
Yeah yeah
Su casa es mi casa
Quote by excon: "Give us your weak, your tired, your hungry (your leaf blowers and your maids)......."
Hooowwwwllllin baby!
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