Grew up in a home where I didn't get much love/affection and I 'fled' perhaps, by dating only one serious boyfriend from age 16 - 26 (can you say LOSER?) who permitted me to sneak out at night to see him midnight until 2am at 16, who isolated me--alienated my friends, ran off other guys I was interested in in college and pretty much only ever spent time with me for sex. Had no outside activities and in a lot of ways I never grew up but I found the strength to break up w/ him and 'found' myself (so I thought) by volunteer firefighting. I loved it, worked hard, got strong, enjoyed the comradery (so I thought). I started dating one of the guys and had a really great relationship, we went places, did interesting things, intimacy went slowly but we eventually got sexually involved. I was for 1st time 'in love' (wheras old boyfriend I would say I was 'in need' and I was never phys attracted to him. This ended when he started dating someone else (and neglected to tell me--continued having sex with me but the outside interests waned. Eventually I found out as soon as I left his bed his new girlfriend was coming over and we weren't in public anymore so she wouldn't 'catch' him as he'd told HER he'd broken up with me.) I was naïve. I tried a few times to seduce him to come back to me--real stupid on my part, humiliating as I look back on it. But what happened next is what my question is about:

His roommate met me in grocery store one day and asked me to come over and hang out. I thought (NAIVE) as a friend, as he and I were both firefighters. He gave me wine (I'd never had it before--sheltered life up until 26! ) and we ended up having sex. I didn't say no, but I didn't want to have sex with someone I wasn't dating, still I felt overwhelming sadness and loss and need at losing his roommate whom I had loved. I(n retrospect it think the guy I'd dated had told him stories that I was easily manipulated. Later I was drinking in bar with the old flame and another guy (who was married) present and they suddenly wanted to go skinny dipping. I'd never done it, so stopped at home to get my swimsuit and met them at the river. I'd hoped something would happen with my old flame. Turned out the married guy ended up standing in front of me for oral as my 'flame' looked on. I was crying as I obliged (I feel like I didn't say 'no' because my 1st 10-yr boyfriend had already treated me shamefully and secretly for so long I was used to it. And I desperately wanted the old flame to want me a and thought me doing his friend would somehow get that. (naive was my middle name) After that it turned out I had an 2 old guys, one junior, and two other supposed comrades at the firehouse try to come after me, either by inappropriately coming to my apartment and inviting themselves in or by grabbing me at the station or one guy gae me a ride home and then turned to try to kiss me. None of those advances did I welcome, and I started to realize evidently I was the firehouse slut. Still, when I was in it, I didn't see it. I simply thought they guys were acting weird. I still has longing for the old flame and I visited his apartment one afternoon and seduced him again, got him into bed (even though I knew he didn't want me, I really loved him and wanted one more time with him. While doing oral on him, though, his roommate came up behind me and had intercourse. I was crying and crying but never said a word or made a sound. I was petrified. It woke me up, though, I stopped firefighting, had nothing to do with t he old flame or any of the guys I had once called my friends.

It's more than 10 years later and all this still haunts me enough to qualify as post traumatic stress. I get a sound or image and shake and cry uncontrollably. I think I'm to blame all over the place but yet I think too, none of these guys seemed in control or doing the honorable thing. I'm far away, married, etc. now but this is hounding me. Should I think it was me and my bad choices or should I blame the guys. And what are they guilty of? Should I confront them? I'm strong enough now and feel no need to hide anything I don't want monsters living in the dark And I wonder if any other young women have met that same fate at the firehouses. Almost all the same guys are still there. I'd like input, too, if anyone sees a trend in firehouses w/ young women. I'd like an expose news story

I don't know anything about firehouses and women.
I'm also unable to tell you who was at fault or if anyone was.
It sounds like it was kinky sex and that is possibly what these men thought you were into since you never said any different.

You are holding on to the past mistakes you made.
Things that you wish you hadn't done.

We all have skeletons in our closet, and yes, they can be haunting.

I feel you need to find a way to forgive yourself for your past mistakes.

You can't change the past, you can only look to a better future.
Seems like you've done that.

Forgiveness to yourself is in need here.

I'm not trying to be harsh or cold, please don't think of it that way.

Are you having a hard time forgiving your mistakes from the past?

Thanks, I do get what you are saying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AKaeTrue

Are you having a hard time forgiving your mistakes from the past?

---

I didn't realize how this had affected me until a recent waterfall RUSH of internal pain came over me unexpectedly at an event that had me in a similar place as in past. I started crying in a way I don't recall ever crying before and all these painful moments when I had not spoken up came back (not like repressed memories, because I've never forgotten the events.) I kind of forgive myself because some time afterwards I started piecing together all the other 'hits' that had, at the time, gone completely over my head and I realized how naïve I'd been in thinking it was OK to talk with the guys at the house about things like them watching my rear when I worked on a ladder above them or going to bar after a fire and hoisting a few beers (I would say I've never been drunk in my life, just add one or 2 beers in a whole evening. But it probably clouded my judgement.)

My main worry has ALWAYS been that this is not an isolated firehouse incident either with these particular guys and a girl in the house or in other firehouses. It tends to be a whatever happens in the firehouse stays in the firehouse mentality. Most of the guys cheat on wives and I'd seen other general scumbag behavior (even when not directed at me.) Onderstand, I have nothing against firefighters. I was so very proud to call myself one and wish I were still active. But I'm too old now.

I'm really sorry for what you're going though.

My brother-in-law is a firefighter, and from what I know, it's not a normal firehouse behavior.

I've had floods of emotions come over me too, even years after the incidents. Through counseling, I discovered that I had never really got over my mistakes. I had just masked them, pretended they didn't exist.

Have you ever sought counseling?
Is this distress affecting your life now?

Yeah screw them, you should not worry about it. What they do now is not your problem. And what happened then was simply a bunch of guys being jerks.
Just be glad you didn't end up with any of them.

Like Matt says, they were jerks.
I hope you can find comfort in knowing that you removed yourself from the situation and have now made a better life for yourself.

I'm going out on a limb here so bear with me. I can totally relate to you situation from my own experience. Here's what I think, as a child you weren't shown love or affection and when you found it (or in need as you first put it) you took it anyway it was offered to you even by that dog of a boyfriend. He treated you badly. Isolating you and chasing off friends and telling you no one wants you is a form of abuse.
The smart thing is you got out. But you still carried the hurt and it intensified when boyfriend was out of the picture. Trying to get him back anyway you tried is normal. No one likes to be replaced in a relationship and since he was so blatent about it to the dog he was sleeping with after you should rid you of the want to have him back thing.
As for drinking wine and finding out the roommate had sex with you while you were out of it can be viewed as sexual assault. Be under the influence of alcohol you were unable to give consent.
Asfor the other times, you were able to give consent but didn't in order to please the old boyfriend. It felt wrong to you and that's why you felt as you did. I'm guessing you relaized then that you were no one's stepping stone or slut. You were used to satisfy someone's sexual pleasure and when that hit home, it hit you hard.
As for what happened at the firehouse, I can't say other than I'm sorry they couldn't behave more like gentleman instead of brutes. As comrades with you and the special dedication firefighters have, I'm surprised they didn't close ranks around you and supplort you.
As for everything being in the past, I'll be honest, it isn't. Not when you are having flashbacks caused by triggers. The triggers can be very slight even to cause very intense flash backs. To the point you can actually feel yourself being touched. They can be crippling and debilitating. And can be seen as post traumatic stress disorder. Any event in your past that can afect you so much by leaving an indelible permanent mark.
Here's the good news. You can learn to remember by not reliving it.Part of the ptsd is that we relive those events when we remember them. They come into play unconsciously. That we can't control them. It'll take therapy and loving support from those around you.
Your in a good place right now with inner strength, happily married,to do this.
If no one has told you this yet, I will, YOU ARE NOT AT FAULT!! ONly of wanting to be loved and I know of no one who doesn't want that. I applaud you for you courage to write about it. It shows you are receptive to getting better and coming to terms with your abuse.
As for what to tell anyone in your family, I can only tell you to say what's comfortable. If your husband already knows about it, thenthe more he can support you.
Also check out the website on RAINN about rape abuse incest. There's allot you can learn there. And that you are not allone in this but one of the stronger ones to talk about it.

Good luck and I'll keep you in my prayers

I'm in counseling for a severe depression and then this incident came up which was actually a repeat incident from 3 years ago that had caused the same reaction in me. I would be the first to admit I have been coping/stuffing it down but never healing. I've started to see how this past stuff has made a trust a hard thing in my current relationships and that's why I'm trying to figure this one out. So, they were jerks. I get that. But why the hell didn't I stop it sooner and why the hell didn't anyone in a whole BUNCH of guys who worked with me step up to halt any of it? I had to give up something I dearly loved in order to get it to end for me. Maybe avoidance wasn't the right choice, but I had to leave before I could get strong.

In some way, since I'm guessing with a handle like 'Matt' that at least one of you is a male, that at least another GUY can see this as jerk and it's not just me as a woman being a psycho man-hater or something. I've been shy to discuss this w/ my husband, but did actually and he's not given me much reaction. I needed him to know why I was suddenly uncontrollably crying and why I wasn't maintaining a high level of trust with him (it has tended to wax and wane over the years. I get strong and then I get doubts about my judgement again and again.)

Yeah, therapy may get me through it, but my next session isn't until another week.

We all make a lot of mistakes, god only knows the ones I have done, and often we do it out of loneliness, anger, pity or all sorts of emotions.

Had you told them no or if you did ( and maybe you did) do something to make them think you did not want to, but look at so many of our posts here, people talking about just "hookng up" or having "friends with benifits" so many people men and women just think about having sex with others without love or emotions, just for sex. That is our socieity today.

The thing about the past we can't change it, no matter how much we wish we could, my last words to my ex the day before she died was those of anger and hate, I can never take those words back, and have no chance of ever telling her now I am sorry, so we live and suffer though our choices good and the bad.

There are some good hotlines that may help or give you a refferal to someone that can
800-422-4453

Also getting professional counseling can often help all of us

The anger your feeling is good. Anger is a strong emotion and shows you are not totally numb. As for your husband's unreactiveness, give him a little time. He's seen the emtional distance you kept him at as a form of selfprotection. When you become healthier , he'll see it and respond to it. Don't forget he's stayed with you. Men have a hard time in showing emotion. It's unfairly ingrained into them that real men don't show emotion. To me real men show their feelings.
as for those brutes and what the did, I don't agree with boys being boys you can't help that,I totally disagree with. That expression is only an excuse. I'm the mother of 2 boys and if they ever treated a woman like that when they become adults, I'd be the first to knock them into the middle of next week.
I can imagine how it felt to leave a position you truly liked. But from what I'm getting from it is, not only did you not like what they were doing to you but the other things they were doing. Like the cheating. You left because it wasn't the right place for you and as you stated you felt better and became stronger for it. So in hind sight, You answered you own question .
Therapy will take time. Anyone who rushes won't be getting better faster. Keep up the treatment. Often a therapist will ask patients to keep journals. This would be a good time to start one. Something this intense will be on the front burner for a while as it should.
as for whay the guys did what the did, because they wanted to do it and have fun by humilitating you. Some males, (not all) get satisfaction by debacing women.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by chippers

I'm the mother of 2 boys and if they ever treated a woman like that when they become adults, I'd be the first to knock them into the middle of next week.
.

---

Thanks. Raising mine the same.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

people talking about just "hookng up" or having "friends with benifits" so many people men and women just think about having sex with others without love or emotions, just for sex. That is our socieity today.

---

You know, I started life thinking when I 'gave myself' to that 1st guy he would be the only one (we were engaged for 4 years) That made it THAT MUCH harder to finally dump him. Abstinance does have it's place as far as I'd say. I look at Tv and society today w/ what you mention and think, you know, all those folks are just fooling themselves the way I was. They'll wake up with regrets later, I bet. (if they ain't dead)

You didn't stop it sooner, because of what I've read from your first post, you were in need of acceptance.

This is not your fault by any means, but the guys you worked with probably thought you had a mind of your own. Interfering with your right to do what ever you pleased was probably something they didn't want to get involved with. And the guys that were taking advantage of the situation were getting their thrills - so why would they stop it? They were jerks...

You've done right by yourself by removing yourself from the situation.
It time to heal.
You can't heal by dwelling of what should have been, could have been...

What you need now, is to surround yourself with thoughts of triumph for what you've overcome. How that bad experience can make you a better person.

Write your feelings down and take it to the counselor with you on your next visit.

You were young and made some mistakes.
The guys were young and made mistakes too.

Perhaps if you were to talk to them, they'd be dreadfully sorry for their actions. Maybe it would be helpful for you to confront them... Ask your counselor about that and see what the opinion is there.

Something has got to get you through this.
I don't see why you should go one more moment feeling the way you do about the past...

Yes people make mistakes all the time, big and small. It is part of the human condition. We all want to be accepted and loved. I am sure that there are millions of people who have similarly been in your shoes. You have to remember the guys at the station were only hearing one side of the story, and although they still behaved badly, they did not actually know what was going on, so assumed (wrongly) that it was something you liked. As for your husband, well sometimes it's just hard to talk about something's, with your wife when you don't really know what to say. And I only used the word "jerks" because the appropriate words would not be suitable for a public forum.

I think there was blame to share all the way around on this. No was never said to my knowledge and that led these other guys to think it was all right. And there was a strong likelihood that she was manipulated based on these guys all knowing each other. Which if true is also definitely not right. Some women enjoy that, most don't. Standing up and saying no is critical if its not what you wish to do.

That's said since this happened 10 years ago and is still causing problems I'd suggest getting therapy. I'd also recommend letting go of this as an indiscretion of youth. The past can't be changed, but the choices and actions you make today can be.

Personally, I'd avoid these guys... but then I'm not a professional. Confronting these guys may just dredge things up all over again worse than they are. Trust the advice of a trained professional however.

Its bad boys being bad boys (good guys would not have done this)... but its not rape if you were fully able to say no and didn't if no threats were made to consent to this.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by smoothy

its not rape if you were fully able to say no and didn't if no threats were made to consent to this.

---

I appreciate your viewpoint, because it forced me to think harder about what happened (whether I like it or not.)

This has been a tough one for me for exactly the reasons you stated.

What I wrestled with a long time was exactly that: WHY THE HECK DIDN'T I say NO?

I went over the scenes in my mind--they've been playing out for me like a video since I started this question--and one thing that never changes is I remember being absolutely petrified--I had only ever been with 2 guys my entire life. I wasn't 'into' 'hooking up' as they do today. (As far as indiscretions of youth, I wish to God I had followed a path of pure abstaining until I got married--that had been my life's intent, and when the 1st guy and I actually 'did it' that's what kept me with him for 10 years because it was a life-committment to me.--I AM able to look back on that and say I did make that mistake in my 'youth' But with the firehouse guys I DEEPLY feared gettng a horrible STD, feared if I protested they WOULD get violent (the guy I'd actually dated did have a well-known crash and break things temper). I secured myself, I felt, by clamping my mouth closed so I could survive and go home)

What I do know is the fellow who very well may have 'orchestrated' this was a guy I gave my heart to and trusted deeply and he KNEW the details of the 10-yr relationship to the point of knowing how naïve I had been about things I won't mention. He also knew that I spent 10 years doing things I NEVER wanted to do in order to 'please' my boyfriend who was emotionally controlling and isolating me. AND I absolutely loved firefighting. And that community of 'brethren' is supposed to be people I am trusting with my life.

The guys who did this to me were all line officers. One guy was borough council president in town. I felt trapped if I wanted to continue firefighting. I had zero social support (no family) and the guys I trusted through out this one by one added to the string of abusers.

I'm settled more on abuse of power and my own terror and fear of losing the one thing I had worked so hard to make right in my life (firefighting) that kept me silent rather than I just didn't say no and because they didn't use violence it is excusable as a misunderstanding or indiscretion.

Thanks for letting me say that.

This is an unrecognized form of abuse and lack of self-confidence.

I am in counselling, so am working through this more and more.

In case any other 'victims' are reading this and feel they weren't abused since they didn't say no, I wanted to add:

sexual abuse: Definition and Much More from Answers.com


Pay closest attention and click on the link to read about 'Positions of Trust' within an organization.


Position of trust is a legal term. It refers to a position of authority over another person or within an organization. Crimes committed by a person in a position of trust may be penalized more severely under the law, and those wishing to occupy positions of trust may be subject to special restrictions such as background checks.

Sexual relations
A person who holds a position of trust over another may not engage in sexual relations with that person, as it is considered to be an abuse of trust. Only after that person has left their trust may they pursue a sexual relationship with them. Abuse of trust can result in loss of the abuser's job or even their license to practice their profession

And, indeed, among the more honorable members in a fire station, they adhere to the idea of never dating someone in the same firehouse...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by wallabee4

I appreciate your viewpoint, because it forced me to think harder about what happened (whether I like it or not.)

This has been a tough one for me for exactly the reasons you stated.

What I wrestled with a long time was exactly that: WHY THE HECK DIDN'T I say NO?!

I went over the scenes in my mind--they've been playing out for me like a video since I started this question--and one thing that never changes is I remember being absolutely petrified--I had only ever been with 2 guys my entire life. I wasn't 'into' 'hooking up' as they do today. (As far as indiscretions of youth, I wish to God I had followed a path of pure abstaining until I got married--that had been my life's intent, and when the 1st guy and I actually 'did it' that's what kept me with him for 10 years because it was a life-committment to me.--I AM able to look back on that and say I did make that mistake in my 'youth' But with the firehouse guys I DEEPLY feared gettng a horrible STD, feared if I protested they WOULD get violent (tne guy I'd actually dated did have a well-known crash and break things temper). I secured myself, I felt, by clamping my mouth closed so I could survive and go home)

What I do know is the fellow who very well may have 'orchestrated' this was a guy I gave my heart to and trusted deeply and he KNEW the details of the 10-yr relationship to the point of knowing how naive I had been about things I won't mention. He also knew that I spent 10 years doing things I NEVER wanted to do in order to 'please' my boyfriend who was emotionally controlling and isolating me. AND I absolutely loved firefighting. And that community of 'brethren' is supposed to be people I am trusting with my life.

The guys who did this to me were all line officers. One guy was borough council president in town. I felt trapped if I wanted to continue firefighting. I ahd zero social support (no family) and the guys I trusted thru out this one by one added to the string of abusers.

I'm settled more on abuse of power and my own terror and fear of losing the one thing I had worked so hard to make right in my life (firefighting) that kept me silent rather than I just didn't say no and because they didn't use violence it is excusable as a misunderstanding or indiscretion.

Thanks for letting me say that.

---

Well, his knowledge of your history definitely takes that up a notch... not saying what they did was right, I feel it wasn't because of that prior knowledge. But does it step into the range of violating a law? I don't think it did but then I am not in the legal business. I don't think its indicative of anyone in the Firefighting business, but it is indicative of a certain click at a certain firehouse. They should have been schools in sexual harassment at some point along the way. Sad fact is there are some guys around like that, just as there are certain women looking to take advantage of some men. Trick is to learn how to spot this in people so you know who to avoid. Not an easy thing to learn I'll admit, more is it foolproof.

Now as to the last paragraph. I will categorically state its wrong to do any of this in the workplace... period. It may or may not be allowed, but its still wrong. And that's even with a simple relationship. Certainly not with what you were subjected to. Problem is it is possible they believed you were OK with it since you never said no... and being sober and alert I think that's what separates OK from not OK... please don't interpret that as my defending their actions in any way. Its not. I wholeheartedly do not agree with that type of guy. But people can't read minds. A no means no. Legally? Its possible something could be done, but chances are you would be airing dirty laundry and not winning. Over my years of working (28 years worth) I have never seen an office affair that didn't result in disaster, some caused big problems in addition to that. And none rose to the level of what happened to you. I've seen more than several people loose jobs , end up divorced etc.. Over what happened fully consensual in the office.

The only thing that separated your situation from rape was the word NO. The line was that fine. Heck, legally the line might have been crossed as they were superiors.

I do highly suggest speaking with a therapist who can help you resolve any issues that you have from this... You can get past this but you may need the help of someone trained to deal with it. I do wish the best for you. And hope you can get past this.

This has been a real eye opener:

WikiAnswers - Should you confront your abuser

I am sorry that you had to go through this. It sounds like you are trying to figure out whether you were at fault here or not. YOU ARE NOT AT FAULT. I hope that you can find a good therapist as well as support with your partner. Journaling, breathing as well as meditation helps. A good friend told me that flashbacks are your brains way of saying that you do not need these memories any more. As you release these memories tell yourself that you release them with forgiveness for everyone involved.