Ask Me Help Desk - How Trump's plans will make the poor even poorer

One of the reasons conservatives and libertarians so often lose arguments with the Left is that, while we are trotting out economic models, spreadsheets, and dusty old theories, they are telling personal stories that touch us on a deeper level. To a certain extent, the populism of Donald Trump has employed the same tactics. While any economist will tell you that free trade is beneficial to the economy, to producers, and to consumers — we can even prove it with math if you let us! — such talk is of little relevance to a factory worker who has lost his job due to outsourcing.
That’s why, when Trump proposes a 45 percent tariff on Chinese goods, his voters cheer even as economists moan. The idea is perceived as a compassionate one, designed to help the little people, the ones that analysts and politicians in Washington don’t know or care about. It’s an understandable reaction, but the other side of the argument is not lacking in emotional stories, if only we can find someone to tell them.

Why is it such a bad idea to impose high tariffs? I could rattle off the arguments of David Ricardo about comparative advantage and the mutual gains from trade, but instead I want to break it down to its most basic level. Tariffs reduce opportunity. They cut off our access to certain goods and raise prices beyond the reach of some Americans. When these prices are for goods that a business — an American business — needs to keep functioning, tariffs can cost people their livelihoods.
Vilified though it maybe, one of the great innovations of the 20th century is in big box retailers like Wal-Mart. These stores found a way to provide high quality products to American families at prices even the poorest could afford. For those of us growing up in an era of astounding abundance, it is difficult to realize what it was like just a generation ago. Most of our parents grew up in a time when you could instantly distinguish the poor from the middle class just by the type of clothes they wore. Poor children had to go to school in poor quality, often handmade clothing. Name brand merchandise was out of the question; there was just no way to afford it. Imagine what it must have been like to show up at school, already a minefield for social humiliation, with the equivalent of a tattoo reading, “I Am Poor.”

The division between the haves and the have nots will widen once more, as the poor lose their ability to afford things you and I take for granted.

Wal-Mart and stores like it changed all that. They were the great leveler. For the first time in human history, poor families could buy clothes that looked pretty much like what everyone else was wearing. They did not have to feel like social outcasts or second class citizens. They could hold their heads high. This is only possible because of free trade.
Trump imagines that by making Chinese goods more expensive, production will simply switch to American factories, providing the same goods at the same prices while employing more Americans. Sadly, it doesn’t work that way. The regulations and wage requirements in America make it impossible to duplicate the production processes we see in China. Maybe some jobs would relocate to American soil, but many more will just disappear, no longer economically viable.
And this is assuming that China does nothing to retaliate. If China responds with tariffs of its own, prices will be driven still higher and more people will be driven out of work. The division between the haves and the have nots will widen once more, as the poor lose their ability to afford things you and I take for granted.
Trump likes to portray himself as compassionate towards the working man, but there is no compassion in a policy that hurts so many Americans, limiting their choice and opportunities, and making them feel how poor they really are.

https://www.conservativereview.com/c...or-even-poorer

You write very well Tom, but the basic theme...How Trump's plans will make the poor even poorer...is a simple tried and true formula... the rich will get a whole lot richer... under Trump, and before you make the case, the rich have already done great under Obama.

Most of the poor are poor because they did not apply themselves in school to get an education... after school they did not want to make sacrifices for future gains down the road... many are happy to collect welfare or work at McDonalds because moving to where they can get a better job means moving away from their friends and drug dealers... and would incur a hardship the snowflakes just couldn't survive without hurting their fragile egos.

Sure some of the poor are just dumb as stumps and can't do better... but far more of them are intelligent enough, just too lazy to do what it takes to improve their lives.

I was born poor... I grew up poor (relative to what I am now and my neighbors growing up) but even that level was a huge amount better than what my parents were born into and knew growing up because they also worked hard to improve their position and were successful at it.

Wealth contrary to what the snowflake crowd isn't a zero sum gain. And its also not something you are entitled to have handed to you, everyone in this country at least has the opportunity to get ahead... Ask the immigrants and the Illegals... not the project and trailer park dwellers who are content with what they have.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

Most of the poor are poor because they did not apply themselves in school to get an education... after school they did not want to make sacrifices for future gains down the road... many are happy to collect welfare or work at McDonalds because moving to where they can get a better job means moving away from their friends and drug dealers... and would incur a hardship the snowflakes just couldn't survive without hurting their fragile egos.

Now, what are you going to tell my disabled son who is smart but couldn't manage college, can't drive, has a minimum-wage job he walks to, and lives at home?

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomder55

And this is assuming that China does nothing to retaliate. If China responds with tariffs of its own, prices will be driven still higher and more people will be driven out of work. The division between the haves and the have nots will widen once more, as the poor lose their ability to afford things you and I take for granted.
Trump likes to portray himself as compassionate towards the working man, but there is no compassion in a policy that hurts so many Americans, limiting their choice and opportunities, and making them feel how poor they really are.

https://www.conservativereview.com/c...or-even-poorer

Tom I think it has to be realised that tarriffs are not a bad thing, I grew up in a era when there were tariffs on everything and stuff was locally made, there was less poverty then. If people were recognisable by their clothes it is because the rich wore better quality and that is still so today. Yes the rich will get richer they do anyway short of a revolution and taking industries offshore was only ever about making the rich richer and not about lifting the poor out of poverty. Dump means change, how much is the big question and it is too early to tell but if he keeps a few jobs at home this is a good thing

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

Most of the poor are poor because they did not apply themselves in school to get an education... after school they did not want to make sacrifices for future gains down the road... many are happy to collect welfare or work at McDonalds because moving to where they can get a better job means moving away from their friends and drug dealers... and would incur a hardship the snowflakes just couldn't survive without hurting their fragile egos.

Sure some of the poor are just dumb as stumps and can't do better... but far more of them are intelligent enough, just too lazy to do what it takes to improve their lives.

I was born poor... I grew up poor (relative to what I am now and my neighbors growing up) but even that level was a huge amount better than what my parents were born into and knew growing up because they also worked hard to improve their position and were successful at it.

Wealth contrary to what the snowflake crowd isn't a zero sum gain. And its also not something you are entitled to have handed to you, everyone in this country at least has the opportunity to get ahead... Ask the immigrants and the Illegals... not the project and trailer park dwellers who are content with what they have.

A harsh view. I know where you are coming from I was born into a working class family but under no circumstance could it be said we were poor, we didn't need welfare and I doubt it was available and there was always a drive that I should do better. However there also needs to be opportunity and whether you are there or here much of the opportunity has flown and the jobs of today need a different and higher skill set, this is where the poor get left behind. We had plenty of migrants in those days but not the refugees and little of the urban problems we have today.

I think our societies have failed in education at the low end, the sights are always to higher education but there are many who won't make it and won't benefit and they become those poor you are talking about because the opportunities for them don't exist. You can't even get into an entry level job with a university degree, you have to have that elusive experience

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

I think our societies have failed in education at the low end, the sights are always to higher education but there are many who won't make it and won't benefit and they become those poor you are talking about because the opportunities for them don't exist. You can't even get into an entry level job with a university degree, you have to have that elusive experience

We should push/encourage vocational training, not college. And better vocational guidance for college grads. Too many students graduate and say, "Now what?"

If of course, China (Mexico, VietNam) and other places things cost more, perhaps they will be made in America again and provide jobs other than fast foods for people to work at. If you went to Walmart and everything was made in America, how many more jobs would be created.

Outsourcing all manufacturing and wondering why no one has money because everyone is in sales of China goods.

Sorry Clete ...it is indisputable that the poor and middle class have benefited from trade liberalization . Trump's tariffs would cost every American thousands of $$$ .You might just as well add a consumption tax on consumers because the effect would be the same.

Quote:

Originally Posted by paraclete

A harsh view. I know where you are coming from I was born into a working class family but under no circumstance could it be said we were poor, we didn't need welfare and I doubt it was available and there was always a drive that I should do better. However there also needs to be opportunity and whether you are there or here much of the opportunity has flown and the jobs of today need a different and higher skill set, this is where the poor get left behind. We had plenty of migrants in those days but not the refugees and little of the urban problems we have today.

I think our societies have failed in education at the low end, the sights are always to higher education but there are many who won't make it and won't benefit and they become those poor you are talking about because the opportunities for them don't exist. You can't even get into an entry level job with a university degree, you have to have that elusive experience

Its not harsh..its a fact.

Of course I was speaking of here in the USA. What I said applies here, not so much in Europe... and I have no idea if it would apply in Australia. The opportunities ARE here (in the USA anyway). Many of them would rather complain than make the effort it takes over the long haul. And as I am sure you know... you have to aggressively pursue your career. Nobody just hands things to those who don't work for them. THAT applies everywhere.

I can say that because I grew up in a very poor part of the state that doesn't have a lot of jobs. There is a reason I haven't lived where I grew up since graduating college.

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

I can say that because I grew up in a very poor part of the state that doesn't have a lot of jobs. There is a reason I haven't lived where I grew up since graduating college.

In my case I don't live where I grew up either but that's because of the weather, that place has suffered with loss of industry too but not as much as some, the impact of the loss of the car industry will hit it hard. We have pockets of unemployment and of course finding employment for the indigenous is an issue, they might fit in your definition, and youth, of course. I don't know anyone that doesn't try hard but lack of opportunity is a serious issue and much of that lack comes from the bloody minded chasing profits at the expense of people and exporting jobs to China and India

There is a weird idea that people should just pack up and go where the work is but there are no guarantees and most don't have the resources to do it

If it wasn't so dead on AMHD, and if there was something interesting on FB, or it was early enough in the evening to be doing anything other than this, I wouldn't be commenting. But alas here I am.

Let me preface this by saying I'm not American, heck I'm not even Canadian, but I do live in Canada. Also, Smoothy is a friend, and I hope that even though I disagree with him, we can remain friends.

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Most of the poor are poor because they did not apply themselves in school to get an education... after school they did not want to make sacrifices for future gains down the road... many are happy to collect welfare or work at McDonalds because moving to where they can get a better job means moving away from their friends and drug dealers... and would incur a hardship the snowflakes just couldn't survive without hurting their fragile egos.

I worked hard in school, I worked hard in college, I graduated college at the top of my class. I sacrificed to have a career. When my husband and I got married I was the bread winner, my job got us the loan for the house we live in, I paid the mortgage, the bills, and bought the food, he barely made enough to pay his car payment and pay for other small expenses. I worked my butt off, and I gave up my career when I had kids because being a mom was more important to me. Even then, I went back to work when my oldest was 2 years old. Then my parents got sick and both of them died of cancer within 6 1/2 months of each other. As an only child it fell on me to take care of them both, and my 2 year old son. So once again I gave up my career, and I don't regret it because I was there for my parents when they needed me. I was there when they died and took care of them before they died.

Then I had another child, and when she was 2 years old I again went back to work, and again that plan was thwarted. My MIL got sick, was sick for over a year, and again it fell on me to care of her. So again I gave up my career and focused on family.

Since then I've had jobs, but sadly because of my short stints working and then having to quit because of family obligations, I can no longer work in the career I trained for, and at 46 I can't afford to go back to college and train for a new career. Maybe that is laziness, or just being realistic. The jobs available to me now are minimum wage, maximum labor, and frankly I cannot stand for 8 hours a day at a cash register for minimum wage, nor can I stock shelves with my bad back. Not unless I'm willing to end up in the hospital or in traction. My working at minimum wage will not elevate our bank account.

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Sure some of the poor are just dumb as stumps and can't do better... but far more of them are intelligent enough, just too lazy to do what it takes to improve their lives.

Not dirt poor because hubby works, but we live paycheck to paycheck. We're both college educated. We're far from being dumb as stumps, neither of us are lazy, it just is what it is. Hubby makes $40/hour before tax. Most people would kill for that wage in the US. In Canada, at least the part we live in $40/hour is a little above the poverty line, just about middle class,but not quite. We don't have cable TV, we coupon shop, our cell phones are pay as you go and we rarely put any minutes on them, we have used cars, mine is paid for and almost 12 years old. We don't go on fancy trips, we buy our clothes and the kids clothes at thrift stores, we rarely go out to eat and when we do, well Subway is a huge treat for us, and yet we still live paycheck to paycheck.

Quote:

I was born poor... I grew up poor (relative to what I am now and my neighbors growing up) but even that level was a huge amount better than what my parents were born into and knew growing up because they also worked hard to improve their position and were successful at it.

We work our butts off to improve our situation. Yes, we do own our own home, but it needs a lot of renos we can't afford to do. We never have money to put aside for a rainy day. If it rains, it pours. When I was working at Dollarama for minimum wage we were actually making less that when I was at home. Our taxes increased, the extra cost of gas money, etc, my working at the only job I can now get at my age, even with a college degree, was actually costing us money!

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Wealth contrary to what the snowflake crowd isn't a zero sum gain. And its also not something you are entitled to have handed to you, everyone in this country at least has the opportunity to get ahead... Ask the immigrants and the Illegals... not the project and trailer park dwellers who are content with what they have

You're actually calling me trailer trash, without meaning to. Also, I'm an immigrant, albeit legal.

Bottom line, just because you got ahead with hard work and education, doesn't mean that everyone will. Also, not everyone is smart enough, or has the money for college. Hard work and the will to succeed doesn't always mean that you'll make it. Do not assume that everyone that needs help to survive is stupid, lazy, a drug addict, and happy to be there and stay there. In today's job market there are doctors, actual doctors with a degree in medicine, just fresh out of school, working in McDonalds because they can't find work anywhere else. They have hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans, and they're making minimum wage because those are the only jobs available to them. Think about that. I have a friend, someone you actually know too, but I won't mention his name out of respect for him, that went to medical school, finished medical school, is a licenses doctor, and the best job he can get right now pays $9/hr before tax. He's not lazy by any means, but he has $300,000 in school loans to pay off, and he's working for $9/hr. How the hell is he going to get ahead? He's far from stupid, but that's the system he's working with. Oh, and the kicker, the $9/hr job is in the medical field and he's in the US.

Frankly, unless you work for yourself, have your own business, and succeed in that business, you will never be rich, you will always depend on the person you're working for, and all it takes is one bad day, you're fired, and you'll find yourself right at the bottom with the "lazy stupid drug dealers". But who can afford to start their own business? It takes money to make money, and I don't know a single person that can risk what they make in order to make it on their own.

We're all cattle, we can't afford to be the cattle rancher, and only the cattle rancher is making enough to survive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alty

If it wasn't so dead on AMHD, and if there was something interesting on FB, or it was early enough in the evening to be doing anything other than this, I wouldn't be commenting. But alas here I am.

Let me preface this by saying I'm not American, heck I'm not even Canadian, but I do live in Canada. Also, Smoothy is a friend, and I hope that even though I disagree with him, we can remain friends.

I worked hard in school, I worked hard in college, I graduated college at the top of my class. I sacrificed to have a career. When my husband and I got married I was the bread winner, my job got us the loan for the house we live in, I paid the mortgage, the bills, and bought the food, he barely made enough to pay his car payment and pay for other small expenses. I worked my butt off, and I gave up my career when I had kids because being a mom was more important to me. Even then, I went back to work when my oldest was 2 years old. Then my parents got sick and both of them died of cancer within 6 1/2 months of each other. As an only child it fell on me to take care of them both, and my 2 year old son. So once again I gave up my career, and I don't regret it because I was there for my parents when they needed me. I was there when they died and took care of them before they died.

Then I had another child, and when she was 2 years old I again went back to work, and again that plan was thwarted. My MIL got sick, was sick for over a year, and again it fell on me to care of her. So again I gave up my career and focused on family.

Since then I've had jobs, but sadly because of my short stints working and then having to quit because of family obligations, I can no longer work in the career I trained for, and at 46 I can't afford to go back to college and train for a new career. Maybe that is laziness, or just being realistic. The jobs available to me now are minimum wage, maximum labor, and frankly I cannot stand for 8 hours a day at a cash register for minimum wage, nor can I stock shelves with my bad back. Not unless I'm willing to end up in the hospital or in traction. My working at minimum wage will not elevate our bank account.

Not dirt poor because hubby works, but we live paycheck to paycheck. We're both college educated. We're far from being dumb as stumps, neither of us are lazy, it just is what it is. Hubby makes $40/hour before tax. Most people would kill for that wage in the US. In Canada, at least the part we live in $40/hour is a little above the poverty line, just about middle class,but not quite. We don't have cable TV, we coupon shop, our cell phones are pay as you go and we rarely put any minutes on them, we have used cars, mine is paid for and almost 12 years old. We don't go on fancy trips, we buy our clothes and the kids clothes at thrift stores, we rarely go out to eat and when we do, well Subway is a huge treat for us, and yet we still live paycheck to paycheck.

We work our butts off to improve our situation. Yes, we do own our own home, but it needs a lot of renos we can't afford to do. We never have money to put aside for a rainy day. If it rains, it pours. When I was working at Dollarama for minimum wage we were actually making less that when I was at home. Our taxes increased, the extra cost of gas money, etc, my working at the only job I can now get at my age, even with a college degree, was actually costing us money!

You're actually calling me trailer trash, without meaning to. Also, I'm an immigrant, albeit legal.

Bottom line, just because you got ahead with hard work and education, doesn't mean that everyone will. Also, not everyone is smart enough, or has the money for college. Hard work and the will to succeed doesn't always mean that you'll make it. Do not assume that everyone that needs help to survive is stupid, lazy, a drug addict, and happy to be there and stay there. In today's job market there are doctors, actual doctors with a degree in medicine, just fresh out of school, working in McDonalds because they can't find work anywhere else. They have hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans, and they're making minimum wage because those are the only jobs available to them. Think about that. I have a friend, someone you actually know too, but I won't mention his name out of respect for him, that went to medical school, finished medical school, is a licenses doctor, and the best job he can get right now pays $9/hr before tax. He's not lazy by any means, but he has $300,000 in school loans to pay off, and he's working for $9/hr. How the hell is he going to get ahead? He's far from stupid, but that's the system he's working with. Oh, and the kicker, the $9/hr job is in the medical field and he's in the US.

Frankly, unless you work for yourself, have your own business, and succeed in that business, you will never be rich, you will always depend on the person you're working for, and all it takes is one bad day, you're fired, and you'll find yourself right at the bottom with the "lazy stupid drug dealers". But who can afford to start their own business? It takes money to make money, and I don't know a single person that can risk what they make in order to make it on their own.

We're all cattle, we can't afford to be the cattle rancher, and only the cattle rancher is making enough to survive.

You need to read what I wrote again Alty. The Illegals AND the immigrants see the opportunities available the snowflakes want handed to them or claim don't exist.

You also don't live in a trailer park or the Projects.

You don't HAVE to own your own business to get ahead or get rich. Sure it uncaps what you can earn by working harder but it also carries its own risk. I don't own my business, never even tried. It wasn't THAT many years ago (except maybe to a millennial which neither of us are) my net worth was in the negative range.

As in the USA there are areas with more opportunity than others. You go to where opportunity is if you want to get further ahead. That will be true most places though in Canada you would have fewer of them.

And as far as student loans... you know they will have to be paid back before you take them out. And you pick a field that's not supersaturated with people at least at the time you start. And a smart person picks a field that will help them get a job, (not Philosophy or Ancient Greek basket-weaving). Also there are no guarantees in life... its choices one makes and more importantly having the right mindset that gives you the drive. And the right attitude is what can either open doors to you or slam them shut in your face.

I have an Engineering degree... know when I last worked in that field? Over 20 years ago... limited earning opportunities (mostly from offshore manufacturing) made me decide to shift fields. Yes I paid for 100% of that degree myself because parents couldn't afford to help. Should I have maybe picked a different field? In hindsight I would have... but the hot fields now were a pipe dream and unheard of to most at that time. Only a handful of geeks actually had a computer and most people only saw them in movies. Few people would have guessed the changes over the coming years.

I did it, in fact spent nearly a decade before I was able to afford my own apartment without roommates... quite a bit longer before I was able to buy my own house. I've had to pack up and make significant relocations 4 times to do it.(twice internationally).. and yes that meant starting all over and making new friends every time.

I'm only a decade older than you but in just that time span I've gone from struggling to pay the mortgage to having more than most people dream of having much less have when they retire, and I have a way to go before I'm ready to... Trick is, and something that has allowed that is I don't give up... wherever I've worked... I do more than the rest.. even if my bosses don reward it I learn more so when I move to the next job I can get that much more, you become the last person they want to lay off if that ever happens... (and yes even in Unions value can trump seniority if you make yourself stand out above the crowd).

Did I ever say it would be easy? Nope... and I won't. It takes persistence and stamina over the long haul. Its easy to resign yourself to , this is the best I can do, or why bother nobody recognizes my work, or well my coworkers on do this much and get paid the same so I'm not doing more than them.

Fact is the people who do matter will see it eventually, and true there are some jobs with little vertical growth and earning potential... Retail and food service being the two most common.

You don't have to own your own business to get ahead... but you still have to look far enough ahead to make the right decisions. (like where can I be 5 years from now if I work there vs if I stay here) Lot of people quit for the wrong reasons, or stay for the wrong reasons.. when either might be the right ones in the right circumstances.

It might be easy to relax where I am now... but I have over a decade longer to work and if you relax you get left behind.

And trust me... though I never really discussed them publicly... I've had more than my fair share of "life happens" moments along the way. And haven't made all the "right" decisions either.

When you resign yourself to your fate... then you seal your fate. That is what happens to most people. They are happy with what they have as long as they don't have to work hard for it... then there are the others who say, this isn't enough... I want more and keep working to get ahead. Its usually small gains... with a few setbacks from time to time... but like the S&P 500, in the long run you see gains over previous years.

Hello smoothy:

Yeah, dem librahls is stoopid and ebil, and LAZEE too.

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by excon

Hello smoothy:

Yeah, dem librahls is stoopid and ebil, and LAZEE too.

excon

Not all of them... but a lot of them... but the same can be said about the rest of the population as well.

I have no sympathy for the yokels who voted for Trump even if they lose their jobs and health insurance. They could have made the right choice but they voted against their own interests so that the "gubmint won't take away mah gunnns" and hating abortion and gay people is more important to them than paying their mortgage and sending their kids to college.

Quote:

Originally Posted by earl237

I have no sympathy for the yokels who voted for Trump even if they lose their jobs and health insurance. They could have made the right choice but they voted against their own interests so that the "gubmint won't take away mah gunnns" and hating abortion and gay people is more important to them than paying their mortgage and sending their kids to college.

You are on welfare aren't you earl? Its pretty obvious you are out of touch with MOST of America. Don't pay your fair share of taxes And generally have no clue what going on outside your own town? Conservatives who voted for Trump are sick of paying your share of the taxes, for your welfare, for YOUR food stamps... and are generally sick and tierd of listening to your side whine and complain they aren't getting enough free stuff that THEY who have actual jobs.. have to pay for. And most of them, unlike most liberals DO pay their own bills from their own income they actually worked to earn and didn't come as a free check once a month.

And we are REALLY sick and tired of the total BS the liberal press thinks everyone is stupid enough to believe..

I'm not on welfare, kind of rude to assume that someone is just because of their political views.

Hello earl:

When smoothy has NO answer, he ATTACKS.. His momma didn't teach him any manners..

excon

Quote:

Originally Posted by smoothy

Y

And we are REALLY sick and tired of the total BS the liberal press thinks everyone is stupid enough to believe..

Yes smoothy it hard being white but remember without all those welfare cheats you would have to complain about Dump