Ask Me Help Desk - Help! Kinked 1 of the soft copper h2o lines while installing Moen kitchen faucet!

Description of background & experience: I am an avid DIYer who has some plumbing experience. I even installed a full bathroom (with jacuzzi tub) in my basement! Since I am a small, short female with more gumption than muscle (or brains :o), I didn't break up the concrete or do the underground connections. However, I read, asked lots of questions, followed directions and my project passed inspection. I believe that anyone can do anything as long as they can read and follow directions. I also believe that being able to ASK for help when needed is an important step to any project. All of this being said, I cannot believe my stupid mistake, despite thinking I was being careful!

Description of Plumbing Problem: I was attempting to install a new Moen one handle kitchen faucet with separate sprayer.

- Before mounting the faucet, I connected the braided water supply hose to the soft copper supply tube (factory installed) for the hot water using two wrenches (1 to turn the nut, the other to hold the copper line in place).

-Because there were 3 soft copper lines (3rd line is for sprayer) there was only room to pre-attach the hot supply before fishing lines through the holes in the sink. There is limited room under the sink plus the large sink bottom is so low that reaching behind it to work on the VERY short soft copper supply line was difficult.

- I used one hand to attempt to (barely) hold a wrench on the square nut attached to the 1/2 threaded male end of the copper cold water line and the other to use the long handled basin wrench (the greatest invention ever!)

-As I tightened the nut, the hand holding the line in place slipped and the line twisted (although I didn't know it at the time).

- I then attached both braided water lines to the stop valves.

- I tested the faucets & found the cold line leaked at the connection between the copper and braided supply lines. As I examined the scene, I noticed the twist and untwisted it. Unfortunately, there was a severe kink in the line about 3/4 below where the copper line attaches to the underside of the faucet.

-I then disconnected everything and took the faucet out of the sink to examine/work on it.

What I need to know:
-Is there any way to repair or replace the kinked line?

-As I mentioned , the soft copper cold water line is kinked about 3/4 below where the line is soldered to the faucet body. If I were to cut above the kink, is there some sort of descending line/piece the supply line is connected to? In other words if I cut above the kink will I cut more than just the line with the kink in it?

-If it is possible to repair and I cut it, would it be better to solder a new extension and coupler on to what's left or use some sort of adaptor and connect a plastic line with the male threaded coupler on it?

-Is there much difference between sweating regular copper (like water lines) and sweating the flexible soft copper supply line?

-Is there some other way to replace the damaged supply line?

-If I get the line repaired and am ready to install it again (deep breath), is there a better way to hang on to that short line so I don't twist/kink it again?

I appreciate any and all help! There is NO WAY I can afford to buy another faucet! There HAS to be some way to repair this since I can't be the ONLY person to make this STUPID error!

Freaked out and foolish, Marianne

Hi Marianne

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I am an avid DIYer

I applaud you for that.

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I believe that anyone can do anything as long as they can read and follow directions.

I agree.

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I cannot believe my stupid mistake,

What makes you think that we all haven't made mistakes. The only person that doesn't make a mistake is the person that doesn't do anything.

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long handled basin wrench (the greatest invention ever!)

I disagree vehemently. I hate basin wrenches. They don't work for me. I like tub and shower wrenches (sockets). They are just cheap sockets that fit plumbing fixtures. You can slide them up over a pipe or piece of tubing. You can put one inside another and make them as long as you need. Try them. They work much better than basin wrenches.

I don't want to be nit picky but if I understand you correctly what you kinked was the supply tubes. Soft copper usually refers to kind of copper pipe that comes in a roll.

If I understand you correctly, you couldn't connect all three braided supply tubes to the faucet supply tubes because all three connection fittings wouldn't go through the sink hole. Then while trying to connect the third braided supply you kinked the supply tube coming out of the faucet. You could have cut a couple of inches off one of the supply tubes and then your connections would not have all been at the same place. But that is the past.

If you have enough supply tubing coming out of the faucet to connect the braided above the kink then you don't have a problem. Just cut out the kink, get a longer braided supply tube and connect it there. And you don't have to do this under the sink. Take the faucet out, cut out the kink and connect the longer braided supply. Because the third connection is in different place than the other two they all should go through the sink hole.
If you don't think that you can connect the braided supply to the 3/4" you have left on the faucet above the kink. Try a 3/8" compression coupling and add another piece of chrome supply tubing.

If I have misunderstood, post some picture and we will work it out together.

Hi, Thank you so much for you quick response and well thought out, detailed answer! I am still learning how to upload photos with my Chromebook (a nice, but different alternative to Microsoft's Windows ultimatum, that takes some getting used to :o). I will continue, today, to try to upload the photos but wanted to clarify a few things in the meantime.

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What makes you think that we all haven't made mistakes.

I agree totally, but mine always seem to be basic, little stupid things that cause BIG problems! (ie. Failing to turn off H2O once when changing a faucet handle (lol))

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I disagree vehemently. I hate basin wrenches. They don't work for me. I like tub and shower wrenches (sockets).

I like the wrench only because it has allowed me to comfortably reach the connections under sinks and tighten nuts.
I am ALWAYS open to new tools but hadn't heard of these sockets. I am, however, having trouble picturing how to get a socket around a nut midway on a pipe or waterline. For example, tightening a nut connecting the faucet and water supply. What am I missing?

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I don't want to be nit picky but if I understand you correctly what you kinked was the supply tubes. Soft copper usually refers to kind of copper pipe that comes in a roll.

Sorry. I used the term "soft copper water supply tubes" only because that's what Moen called them per the instructions. Ironic in hindsight, the quote was something like "use caution when connecting the soft flexible copper supply tubes to the water supply and avoid bending or twisting them. Bent copper supply tubes will invalidate your warranty." HAHA :o) Like it was written for ME! Yes, I have seen the rolls of copper at stores. I thought it was used more in gas supply settings? There is SO MUCH I still need to learn, just to get the basics down!

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If I understand you correctly, you couldn't connect all three braided supply tubes to the faucet supply tubes because all three connection fittings wouldn't go through the sink hole. Then while trying to connect the third braided supply you kinked the supply tube coming out of the faucet. You could have cut a couple of inches off one of the supply tubes and then your connections would not have all been at the same place.

Yes, sort-of. I was trying to minimize under sink work so I tried to attach the braided lines to the two faucet supply tubes before installing. The hot and cold supplies ARE two different lengths (although the sprayer line, same material, is the same length as the hot) but I only had one (1) water supply hose with one of those plastic, supposed hand tighten nuts, and one (1) supply hose with a metal (wrench tighten) nut. It (the plastic nut) was too fat to fit through the sink hole, along with the other two lines (pressed against it). I was only able to connect the hot line, with the metal nut, before installing. That's why I had to connect the sprayer (piece of cake) plus the cold while under the sink. (The cold faucet supply tube is only about 5 inches longt)! That is the one I kinked.

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But that is the past.

Actually it's not all in the past. I removed the faucet after I discovered the problem and will need to install it again after it's fixed so I appreciate suggestions! Plus I will be getting a second braided hose with a metal nut, none of the plastic hand tighten stuff! This way I should be able to make the under sink work MUCH EASIER by making the connections and then threading it through the hole in the sink for installation.

I

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f you have enough supply tubing coming out of the faucet to connect the braided above the kink then you don't have a problem.

This is where I need to clarify things. I am not sure if I wasn't clear or if I am not understanding you correctly. So... here goes!

The copper faucet supply tube (which appears to be 1/4 inch diameter tube) seems to be soldered to the underside of the base of the faucet unit. (I haven't take the bottom plate off yet to see how they put it all together). The distance from where the tube connects to the faucet base to point where the kink is, is about 3/4 of an inch. There is also, at the end of the tube, well below the kink, a male threaded coupler/adaptor(?) to attach the nut from the braided supply.

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Just cut out the kink, get a longer braided supply tube and connect it there.
If you don't think that you can connect the braided supply to the 3/4" you have left on the faucet above the kink. Try a 3/8" compression coupling and add another piece of chrome supply tubing.

So if I cut out the kink, it will leave me with a little under 3/4 of inch of the 1/4 copper tube to work with. (It's also a busy area where all the tubes are soldered to the faucet base and I hope I am able to fit my tube cutter in the space)

Since I need to connect the 1/4 inch copper faucet supply tube to a male threaded adaptor to attach the braided hose to, should I find a small compression fitting for the small remaining amount of faucet supply tube and then attach an extension to it, along with the male threaded adaptor?

I sure hope I have clarified rather than confused things even more! I will continue to learn how to upload photos of the set-up and post them. If for some reason you won't need them, please let me know. Again, thanks for your help. I apologize for my descriptions. I don't always know the names of things or how much detail to go into! Plus, we never know how things sound to other people when dealing with the written word. Just so you know, I have a dry, sarcastic sense of humor. I also don't take myself very seriously and try to keep things light.

I should also explain that while most of my "projects" were done when I was healthy, this is no longer the case. Ten years ago I re-developed a (previously in remission for 8 yrs) extremely painful , rare progressive Neurological disease. I deal w/the pain but have serious dysfunction in my hands and have trouble using them. My back and one leg are also affected. This is actually the reason why I was unable to successfully hold the wrench that was keeping the tube from bending. I am still always willing to attempt projects but try to find ways that minimize the amount of strength and control needed to do things. (I hope that made sense :o) I have discovered, to my frustration, that "being disabled" doesn't mean the same as "feeling disabled". In other words, my brain says "full speed ahead, give it your best shot" and my body says "whoa, that's kinda hard"!

Thanks again! P.S Why aren't all contractor's like you? :o) Marianne

P.S I just realized, in checking my initial post, that I used the word "lines" instead of "tubes". SO sorry if that was confusing!

Hi again Marianne,

Not to worry. It takes time to learn the jargon of anything, whether it is plumbing, electric or heart surgery.

Just for your information, pipe is measured on the inside, tubing is measured on the outside. If you go to the plumbing store and ask for 1/2" soft copper pipe and go to the air condition supplier and ask for 5/8" tubing you will get the same thing. The plumber calls it pipe and the a/c guy calls it tubing. The walls of the pipe (or tubing) is 1/16" thick and you have two walls so that makes up the1/8" difference.

So if you call the supply lines pipe they are 1/4". If you call them tubing they are 3/8". Not to worry I know what you are talking about.

You can purchase the flexible braided supply lines for toilets and you can purchase them for faucets. The faucet supply lines have a compression coupling for connecting to the stop valve on one end and a pipe thread adapter on the other, if that is what you faucet connection requires. Some have the plastic version for hand tightening. Others have a nut for wrench tightening.

You can also purchase braided supply lines that have the compression fittings on both ends. I think they are called extensions lines.
If your faucet did not have the adapters on the end that would be what you would use. You would put a 3/8" compression coupling on the end of the supply line from the faucet and connect the braided line to it.

You should be able to cut off the kinked tubing and put on a 3/8" compression coupling to the stub that is left. Then put an extension braided line to the stop valve. If you can't find a braided line long enough, or is connection of the braided supply line makes things to bulky, get a hard faucet line, cut off the big end. Use the compression coupling to connect it to the stub. Use another compression coupling to connect the braided supply line. By hard supply line I mean the chrome supply lines that are the same thing as what comes out of the faucet except that they are chrome.
These are the lines we used before the flexible lines came into being.

Since the connection is so close to the hole in the sink, the compression coupling might be to bulky and make things difficult. If it does there is another way but that involves soldering and having a flaring and swagging tool.

Do you solder?

Here is pic of compression coupling, a braided extension line, a set of tub wrenches and a hard faucet supply line.
To use the tub wrenches which are really sockets, you would slide them up the the tubing to the nut. When the nut is up behind the sink, you put several together to make them long enough for you to hold. One will fit inside another. So now you have a socket that is about 8 or 9 inches long. Try it, you will like it.

To post a picture on this web site, upload your picture to your computer in JPEG format, use Paint to reduce it down to a reasonable size. Make your post, then click on "Go Advanced" below the posting box. On the next screen, click on "Manage Attachments. Next screen click on "ADD Files" in upper right. Click on "Select Files". Find the file and click on "Upload". After uploading files click "Done", submit you post.

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P.S Why aren't all contractor's like you?

I'm a sucker for a pretty face.

Hi, Your descriptions and directions are amazing! You should be a teacher! (although you ARE already a teacher aren't you?)

I am snowed in so this project is on hold for several hours at least.
But wanted to touch base.

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Not to worry. It takes time to learn the jargon of anything, whether it is plumbing, electric or heart surgery.

Yes, that has been a big source of difficulty for me. My Dad is a 94 year old retired mechanical engineer and aviator (quit flying when I was growing up and put his Waco Bi-Plane in mothballs but now putters around re-building it). He took classes while in his 60's to become a plane mechanic (to fix his own plane) and rebuilt the engine. In addition to doing Mechanical Engineering on huge buildings, he had also worked at a gas station (the old fashioned kind where they did ALL the work on engines). He was always my "go to" source but we would differ over the names of things because he would alternate between tubes, lines and pipes. His varied career is probably the reason! He could do anything, it seemed, except choose a name and stick with it! HA!

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Just for your information, pipe is measured on the inside, tubing is measured on the outside. If you go to the plumbing store and ask for 1/2" soft copper pipe and go to the air condition supplier and ask for 5/8" tubing you will get the same thing. The plumber calls it pipe and the a/c guy calls it tubing. The walls of the pipe (or tubing) is 1/16" thick and you have two walls so that makes up the1/8" difference.

That makes perfect sense, and I suspected that might be the case, but at that time I was discussing it with a hardware store clerk who knew much less than he claimed so I dropped it!

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You can purchase the flexible braided supply lines for toilets and you can purchase them for faucets. The faucet supply lines have a compression coupling for connecting to the stop valve on one end and a pipe thread adapter on the other, if that is what you faucet connection requires. Some have the plastic version for hand tightening. Others have a nut for wrench tightening.

Yes, I know this well! Dad was having plumbing problems (toilet not self :o) and I was not well enough to travel the 4 hrs to help him. A friend of ours, male, mechanical engineer as well, went up and helped him w/ several project. Each one ended up failing. As Dad and I discussed it over the phone (what does it look like etc) it occurred to me that the guy used the wrong water line (still wonder how he could have done it but... ) Sure enough, Dad replaced it and it worked. Nice man to help and all, but as I keep trying to tell people, both male and female, being born one or the other does not naturally predispose one to being able to fix things. As Dad has gotten older, I am in a position to help him out with the information he taught me in the first place! He made me watch ALL repairs from the time I could stand. He said "no daughter of mine is going to be stuck on a road somewhere not knowing how to fix her own car". Then as I got older it extended to "no daughter of mine is going to be at the mercy of salesperson, contractor or repair person"! Basically, I think he just wanted me to be "well rounded". He also taught me how to cook so I asked him "is this so that in case I decide to marry the salesman, repairman or contractor, I will know how to feed him or is this in case I am stuck in the middle of nowhere and get hungry?"

Do you solder?

Yes I do but haven't done it in awhile. I did the water lines for the basement bathroom 12 years ago. I do know what flare and swage is but do not have the "tool" (but have always wanted it :o). Might be nice if I had a REALLY good excuse to get one. Would I swage the piece to solder to the stub (which is 1/2 I measured it) because there is no way to get a tool on the stub. Plus I am worried about soldering because it is so "busy" there. Photos will show up soon I hope.

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Try it, you will like it.

I haven't heard this phrase in a long time, but I bet you remember, as I do, when we had full service gas stations eh? Ha Ha Wasn't that in the commercial for Life cereal? Always got it confused with "I can't believe I ate the whole thing" and of course "where's the beef". The days of "intelligent" (yea right) commercials!

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To post a picture on this web site, upload your picture to your computer in JPEG format, use Paint to reduce it down to a reasonable size. Make your post, then click on "Go Advanced" below the posting box. On the next screen, click on "Manage Attachments. Next screen click on "ADD Files" in upper right. Click on "Select Files". Find the file and click on "Upload". After uploading files click "Done", submit you post.

Thanks so much for these directions. Getting the photo onto my Chromebook in the first place is a problem, it is not windows or mac based, but it is on this evenings agenda. Wonderful laptop but tricky.

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I'm a sucker for a pretty face.

So you must have a seriously advanced computer with a psychic screen, eh? (hehe)!

Seriously, life would be so much simpler if all people could explain things half as well as you do. Thanks, m

P.S The tub wrenches look just like spark plug wrenches!! If they are the same material I already have a 1/2 and 5/8.

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The tub wrenches look just like spark plug wrenches!

Basically the same thin, cheap sockets, just not the same sizes. The nice thing about them is that you can stack them. Put one inside another to make them longer.

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. I do know what flare and swage is but do not have the "tool" (but have always wanted it :o)

You would swage the tubing you want to add, not the stub. You can purchase a swaging tool that you tap in with a hammer. Might find it at Home Depot or Lowe's but would probably have to order over the internet. About $7 or $8. The only problem you would have to try to hold the tubing in one hand while you tried to tap in the tool with your other hand. Of course you have to hold the tool with your third hand.

Be better to find a plumber, air condition tech or a handy man and have them do it for you. Air conditioning tech would be best bet. They do more of this kind of thing than plumbers. Lots of plumber probably never flared or swaged a joint.

I just had a thought. I am sending you a PM (private message) Look for it in the upper right hand corner of your screen by your sign on name.

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"I can't believe I ate the whole thing"

Alka-seltzer

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Where's the beef

Wendy's

The one I remember best is

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"Please Mother, I'd rather do it myself"

Anacin

Attachment 48240 Attachment 48241I may have figured it out! Let me know if these go thru!

Uninstall the faucet. Take medium-size channel locks. Grab the tube across the kink and gently squeeze it back into round shape. The final shape will not be perfectly round and kink will be visible, but you will get more then enough flow to the faucet.

Other than that, you don't have too many choices as the kink is too close to the body of the faucet. Besides the kink itself, the tubing was flattened some 1/2" up and down the tube before the actual kink. There is simply not enough room to cut it off on a healthy section of the tube so a SharkBite fitting or compression nut could be utilized.

You could try to cut it off and to solder copper coupling on the short end - but I am not sure whether I want to recommend this approach.

One more thing I would suggest - call MOEN and tell them what happened. They may ask you to mail it to MOEN and in exchange, they will send you new faucet. MOEN really stands behind their product. Satisfied customer is much more valuable to them than unhappy one.

Hope that helps

Milo

I agree with Milo,

My friend had the same problem and we talked to Moen they sent a new faucet with no charges, try it and see what happens the number is 800-289-6636, Good luck.

John

Milo, Thanks so much for sharing your expertise! I appreciate it very much. Actually, the photo is misleading, there is exactly 1/2 inch of healthy tubing above the kink, but yes that is a very small area to use a compression fitting. My understanding is that Sharkbite compression fittings are not rated for the soft copper (per their literature) but they certainly are wonderful in approved settings!

John, Thanks for your input as well. HK has some advice I may try but you gave me hope. If all else fails, I will contact Moen. Good to know they stand behind their product.

Harold what do you mean by Tubing in the mail?

Thanks.

John

I sent her a small piece of swaged tubing. Easier than her looking for a plumber or a/c tech.
I wasn't sure she would see that she had a PM.

Hopefully Moen will replace as they did for you.

Harold

You are great and life saver.

Best Regards,

John