You have to wonder why the US specifically feels it must confront China right at this moment
US to challenge China within hours
Is it that with Russia on the ascendency in the ME Obama feels he must be seen to act giving support to the democratic presidential campaign.

The problem is the boat has sailed. China was permitted to create it's bases in the South China sea in recent times, without confrontation, now a gun boat hardly seems sufficient and all the US can really do is ensure the safe passage of shipping. The US has no territory at risk in the South China sea and can therfore be rightly seen by China as an interloper in territories where they may have a dispute with other nations. This sort of politics place a lot at risk

From a Chinese point of view, it is because America is an aggressive military nation, with desires to rule and control the world. From a Chinese perspective, China has not since the forming of the current government sent their troops anywhere outside of their boarders. (ok some border issues but most likely no different than if America had decided to set up secure boarders between Mexico and Canada perhaps)

From my reading, there were small amounts of land, so they merely claimed an island that had not be claimed by anyone. (perhaps America just pissed they did not think of it first)

What it does show, is that America wishes to be the police of the world, interfering without any international court or any UN sanctions. But that is not the first time they wish to try and be the bully on the block.

I think of an example, If I lived on a road, and ABC company claimed ownership and closed the road. So instead of suing in court, I just take a gun and break though the road.

This is happening because of the Philippines and Vietnam, they are pushing the US to send ships into the area. Now they will not send their own ships.? I wonder why, but they want America to do it.

We all realize it is because of the oil. The military is going in to help fight for America Oil Industry.

Well of course they will fight to enforce the US grip on the world. I agree Chuck, the Chinese are not naturally aggressive having been far more invaded than invading and these islands are part of disputed territory. It's is just another chinese wall and a typhoon might wash it away. I think the Chinese should have respected Philippines and Vietnamese soveriegnty where these Islands are within the international economic zones, 200 km/miles no doubt chinese and phillipinno and vietnamese fishermen have shared them for centuries and placed their case before the international courts before expanding into international shipping lanes, but probably it isn't an issue, how many international shipping lines do the Chinese own? How many american drilling rigs are in the South China Sea. The thing is ridiculous because of the amount of trade between US and China, the US economy would grind to a halt if the trade stopped and the Chinese withdrew their capital.

Fr_Chuck: does the Chinese media talk about China's work to build brand new artificial islands in the middle of the China Sea? They are dredging up the sea bottom in order to create entirely new islands which they will then claim are their territory, and then they will claim that they have control of the 12-mile limit around these new islands. So the reason the US must challenge now is that these islands are being built by the Chinese now. Here's a link to a NY Times article on it, but I suspect that the Chinese internet gate keepers will block it:

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/28/wo...=top-news&_r=0

The issues here, is that China always owned this property and is merely developing land and territory it has a legal claim to. (Same as after the US/Vietnam war) when China and Vietnam had a border fight over the actual border. In some areas it is actually though the middle of a town. (and there is no fence or even border guards)

But most of it, has a focus on how the other nations are disrespecting the legal rights of China. Esp the US. It is more a matter of respect, China see's the actions as losing face.

The new China president is much more old school, than the previous ones, He is building a much stronger China. You can see where most of those that opposed him, were found guilty of graft in government and removed (often in prison or >>>>)

They are really moving to block free speech, and open internet now. You see a lot more attacks on Christian churches this last year.

There is a move for a much stronger China, And just like the US, when issues at home, unemployment, economy and other things are bad. They look for an enemy to blame. America has made it easy to be the target.

The issue, China does not really like all of the culture changes that has happened, with a more open nation.
Issues of economics, more people looking at earming more money.
Also change in family, first the one child issue, is making more older people, with less workers, but before children cared for the older parents, now the child often moves away to large cities to earn more money.

I work for a government university, and have a lot of military students here. So I hear things from "their side"

Who cares if China loses face? Doesn't take much to bend their noses out of joint in the first place. An American ship patrolling in INTERNATIONAL waters where we have interests and allies?

It's an issue of perspective, international law doesn't recognise a 12 mile limit around these reefs so it should be taken to an international court to decide where the territorial limits of the Philippines and Vietnam are in this instance. It is the same sort of issue as Israel building settlements in the West bank and building a wall in convenient places.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-34647651

Tal we should care when any nation has it's statue diminished by unilateral action, the question is not a right of passage for international shipping since that is not threatened but deliberately provocative acts and governments have a habit of doing things that take the focus off internal issues. How would the US react if the chinese fleet sailed down the US Coast or made an unannounced visit to Hawaii or Guam.

In saying these things I not saying China has not acted badly by taking unilateral action to build up these islands but why does the US need to intervene now when the time to intevene was when the construction began and the people who should have been intervening were the Philippines and Vietnam. Taiwan also has a claim but has stood back.

I think that we need to understand that in the past China was a great power when other nations in the region may not have formed and were kingdoms and fiefdoms at best. The Phillippines for example was under Spanish rule and Vietnam under French rule. The law of the sea is a recent innovation and doesn't overthrow ancient boundries. Enforcement of 200 mile economic zones and 12 mile territorial limits would be very difficult in certain parts of the world and yet we don't see the US sailing through these channels. A dutch map of the 1890's shows some islands in the region with Chinese names

Saving face is about the most important issue in the Asian world.
Feeling insulted can find its way into international dealings. America which borrows billions from China to pay its bills, need to understand the culture of other nations, if they expect to have good dealings.

It is more a matter, showing that the US does not respect International Courts and want to prove they are superior than other nations. And as for the ship, it really had no business sailing where it did, and only did to prove they do not respect China and China's view point.

China could really almost bankrupt America if they wanted to fight a economic war. America is losing it place in the world, with China and Russia moving out in front.

Sorry Chuck I don't know what international courts have to do with this other than they haven't been consulted.

We have to stop equating China's military capability with that of the US. The US is a world naval power, China has only regional capability, the US is a world air power, China has only regional capability, the US is a world nuclear power, China has only regional capability, only in land forces could China be considered to be able to out gun the US and even that is debatable and they exist on different continents with no common borders. Is it that the history in Korea is still fresh in military minds. I don't doubt the Chinese are a little paranoid about the US in Asia but US military power is driving an arms race, the US spend is four times anyoneelse and equals the rest of the world combined.

Russia has shown it is not timid in Syria, beats invading the Ukraine but the lesson is there. Russia wants its reputation as a superpower back and no doubt remembers Afghanistan. No one wins an economic war, the fallout would be enormous and create a real danger of a real war. China seeks access to resources, we should remember the outcome when Japan had restricted access to resources

America has left its Republic roots and is really acting like a democracy. In most of history a democracy never lasts very long because they are weakened by the very form of government they want.

And many people want a "new world order" or a global world. The issue is the pride and the greed of man. Each small part of the world, wants and has it own local leaders and do not want to follow higher leader. (Unless it is their own government)

Then is even the issue of what form of government, every form has its own problems. Each of the major nations, have some desire for this, (with them as the ruler of course) Others had hoped for a powerful United Nations that would some day rule all the world, (but the pure design makes that impossible)

But though out history, governments come, government go, The bigger powerful ones are remembered in history, others are soon forgotten.

Yes we are really talking about empire, whatever the form of government that backs it, the Chinese empire is at its fullest extent on land, certainly for many centuries, the american empire is certainly huge and so is the Russian empire. I expect it is inevietible that they will oppose each other militarily

I see, if you read the early socialists and communist writers, they believed there could never be a full scale war against America that would win, but all of them wrote about winning America from the inside by using its own political system against it, to weaken it and the people, to a point where they will just become socialist and be an partner.

I honestly believe this is a real plan and in the works. This included lowering the moral values of America.

I had lunch this morning with some of the Chinese military. ( will have photos on Facebook later) Their issue for here on the Islands and even Taiwan, is that America could not support a full scale war against China, so close to China mainland. Plus with the economic ties to the Middle East, and Russia, they feel they may be able to cripple America economically. The resolve of the American people, do not like war so lots of posts of children and innocent people dying, would soon have public opinion in America against the war.

Very dangerous views Chuck, america has implemented its own moral decline with drugs, poverty, etc it doesn't need help, but I doubt that if attacked the american people would not rally, however they may have no taste for a war that they started or was in defense of an Asian nation. Even socialist countries have fought each other. What I fail to understand is why america hasn't made more of its position in its own sphere, there is the whole continent of souh america and yet it looks to Asia. I think america is a victim of its own propaganda

It's not propaganda Clete, the US already has agreements with many South American countries and negotiations with many others.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_T...sed_agreements

If China wanted a war they would have invaded their neighbor... especially South Korea, or Taiwan. Obviously they don't.

That moral decay thing though... you wish.

This is indeed an old tactic. Remember Kruschev's comment from the 50's: "we will bury you?" He wasn't talking about destroying the US in a military conflict, but rather that uprisings from within the US by workers would doom capitalism, and that communism was the inevitable successor. Of course ultimately it was the Soviet Union that disintegrated and the Berlin wall that fell.

China's real aim in its chest puffing is to displace the US as a foreign power in the western Pacific. We have military bases in Japan, Korea and the Philippines, plus other Pacific islands like Kwajalein and Midway, and the Chinese are trying to counter that by building islands with air bases in disputed waters near the Philippines, and in expanding their fledgling nuclear navy. The may claim they are trying to "save face," but that's just a ploy to play the victim to justify their expansion.

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Do we really have to do this?

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The answer to this is absolutely yes. The US has defended the principle of the free navigation of the seas since the founders adminstrations . This is a critically important principle.

The Chinese are building island fortresses in the sea lanes where $ billions in commerce flow annually . They are claiming sovereignty up to 200 miles around these artificial islands even though they are in the territorial waters of other nations who are our allies. '
When the Chinese sent a warship near Alaska while the President was there we did not dispute their right to navigate those waters . They should have no issues with us doing the same in seas where their claims are disputable .

Tom the issue isn't freedom of navigation, it is about being deliberately provocative by sailing close to these islands. The US ship could have passed through the region without sailing close. Australian naval ships are exercising with the Chinese there isn't an issue of freedom of navigation and trade, and cooperation, but as has been stated the US has bases all over the western pacific, perhaps the Chinese feel a little intimidated and the need to build up defenses.

Look I too think it is undesirable that the Chinese have decided to build these bases far from the mainland and close to other nations, particularly the Philippines and the Philippines have not defended these territories and undoubtedly it is about oil.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Tom the issue isn't freedom of navigation, it is about being deliberately provocative by sailing close to these islands. The US ship could have passed through the region without sailing close. Australian naval ships are exercising with the Chinese there isn't an issue of freedom of navigation and trade, and cooperation, but as has been stated the US has bases all over the western pacific, perhaps the Chinese feel a little intimidated and the need to build up defenses.

Look I too think it is undesirable that the Chinese have decided to build these bases far from the mainland and close to other nations, particularly the Philippines and the Philippines have not defended these territories and undoubtedly it is about oil.

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The islands aren't complete . Wait until they become legitimate military platforms then tell me what it's all about . The Spratley islands aren't close to China. They have no business claiming them . The only purpose they have for the Chinese is to control a shipping choke point.

Sorry, you don't like The US being deliberately provocative, but that's how big dogs communicate. If you were a superpower with friends and allies (AND adversaries, and rivals) you would understand the message being sent loud and clear!

Class dismissed.

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Tom the issue isn't freedom of navigation, it is about being deliberately provocative by sailing close to these islands. The US ship could have passed through the region without sailing close. Australian naval ships are exercising with the Chinese there isn't an issue of freedom of navigation and trade, and cooperation, but as has been stated the US has bases all over the western pacific, perhaps the Chinese feel a little intimidated and the need to build up defenses.

Look I too think it is undesirable that the Chinese have decided to build these bases far from the mainland and close to other nations, particularly the Philippines and the Philippines have not defended these territories and undoubtedly it is about oil.

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Maybe it is because of this ?

CHINESE MILITARY AIRCRAFT INTERCEPTS US SPY PLANE, PERFORMS ‘UNSAFE’ MANEUVER OVER YELLOW SEA | Christian Patriots