Ask Me Help Desk - GFCI not working and not hot!

I have a question for you:

My house was built in 2004. I have 2 bedrooms on one side of the house that have lost power to all receptacles. No power to any receptacle and the receptacles inside that are hot work. All GFCI's in house work. 3 out of 6 GFCI's on the outside of my house do not work and the ones that don't are not hot. Only one of those has worked in the past. And it is right on the same wall that is on one of those bedrooms that is out.

So my question is, can a GFCI be bad and that be causing the wires to not actually be hot? Because if a gfci can shut down to the wires coming into it I may be able to replace the gfci and everything come back on. But if Its not then I'm at a loss

Thanks for the help

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So my question is, can a GFCI be bad and that be causing the wires to not actually be hot? Because if a gfci can shut down to the wires coming into it I may be able to replace the gfci and everything come back on. But if Its not then I'm at a loss

No. A GFI can protect itself and can protect any outlet down stream from itself. Meaning it can turn itself off if a fault is detected or it can be wired to turn itself off and also turn off any outlet further down the same circuit. It cannot turn off the power coming to itself.

What you have here is some detective work. It helps to understand how things work and what can go wrong in order to know what to look for. It also helps to have done this kind of thing before.

The first thing you need to do is to try to determine which circuit the outlets are on.
That would be easy if the outlets were working, you would simply turn off breakers until the outlet stopped working. Because the outlets are not presently working that approach won't work for you. I suggest that you try determining which circuits the working outlets are on. That should reduce the number of circuits that the non-working outlets outlets could possibly be on.

You should be able to reduce the number of possible circuits down to 2 or 3.
Then use all other clues you have to determine the most likely circuit.

The first clue would be that unless this is a custom built home, the electrician that wired it wasn't working for you. He was working for the builder who was paying him the least he could. Therefore, the electrician wired it using the least amount of material and more importantly the fastest way he could.

In my opinion a good electrician would put the exterior outlets on a separate circuit. But I am not an electrician working for a builder. Remember clue #1, least amount of material and least amount of time. I suspect that the exterior GFI outlets are on the bedroom circuits with the non-working outlets.

If you look at a regular outlet you will see that there are two ways of connecting the wires. The old way is to strip back the wire, curl it and put it under a screw, close the loop and tighten the screw. That takes time.

The other way is to use the "quick connect" holes in the back. You strip the wire and stick it in the hole. A small spring inside holds the wire in place. Much, much faster. Only problem is that after about 10 years bad or poor connections begin to develop.

Sounds to me that this is what has happen to your home. I suspect that the exterior GFI outlets are on the same circuits that service the interior outlets in the same area and that the quick connect holes were use in wiring the interior outlets.

If it were me, I would begin by pulling the non-working outlets and see if they were wired using the quick connect holes. Using a multi-meter check each outlet for power. Keep in mind that the bad connection can be at a non-working outlet or it can be at the last working outlet on the circuit.

If you find that the quick connect wiring method was used you may as well just go through entire house and rewire all outlets and switches using the screws. If you don't this problem will just keep haunting you until you do.

I have pulled all non working GFi's as well as the "first" or "last" reseptscle downstream and have installed a new one and flipped the breaker back on and I am still not solving my problem.I would replace the GFI's outside but those aren't receiving any voltage coming in at all. Is it possible that I could have a bad receptacle that still works on that circuit? Also is it a possibility that a bathroom between the bedrooms is working and not on that circuit but is used to connect the rooms? Could that one have an issue and shut the power off the both bedrooms? Even thought it's not actually on the same cicuit breaker? This is getting pretty silly but I have to get it fixed.

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Is it possible that I could have a bad receptacle that still works on that circuit?

Yes. With the quick connect you could have a good connection to the power coming in but have a bad connection going out. That outlet would work but outlets down stream from it would not. That is why I say the bad connection could be at a non-working outlet or it could be at the last working outlet.

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as well as the "first" or "last" reseptscle downstream

Downstream to what?

Have you pulled the any bedroom outlets. Are they wired using the quick connect holes?

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Also is it a possibility that a bathroom between the bedrooms is working and not on that circuit but is used to connect the rooms?

Not sure how to read that question but bathroom will not be on same circuit as bedrooms.

So none of my outlets are quick connected. All are wrapped around the screw... So where I stand now is I have replaced the outlets on the end of the circuit line on both sides and still don't have power at all coming into any outlet that was bad beforehand. So are you saying I could have an outlet that is not hot but also bad be the reason that all of them aren't hot?

You have a short somewhere. That does not normally happen except when the quick connect method of wiring is used. Outlets very rarely go bad unless there is physical damage.

As stated at the beginning you have some detective work to be done.

How are you testing the outlets? Do you have a multimeter, do you have a voltage sensor? Are you comfortable opening your breaker panel? Do all 240 volt appliances work properly?

You said

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3 out of 6 GFCI's on the outside of my house do not work and the ones that don't are not hot. Only one of those has worked in the past. And it is right on the same wall that is on one of those bedrooms that is out.

Remove the GFI on the exterior wall of the bedroom and tell me how it is wired. How many cables and how many wires in each cable and their connections. Remove each outlet in the bedroom and describe the wiring of each.

So all outlets gfci's and regular receptacles are wired with a white cord, a black cord, and a copper cord. All are wrapped around the screws and snuggly in place. Yes, the black and white and copper are all where they should be. Same way on all outlets. House is only ten years old so I know it is up to code.

I have a volt meter and have check all receptacles for power with no luck. If it's a short, shouldn't I be able to put a new receptacle on one at a time on the bad ones and it possibly fix it. ( I have one receptacle that is new, I replace one then flip breaker back on, if it doesn't work, I repeat) Im afraid that is just in a wall somewhere.

When checking for voltage, check between the hot (black) and the neutral (white).
Also check for voltage between the hot and the ground (bare). The reason is that if there is a break in the neutral wire, a voltage check between the hot and the neutral will show no voltage even if there is voltage on the hot.

In other words if the meter shows no voltage between hot and neutral but shows that there is voltage between the hot and the ground, you have a break in the neutral.

Another convenient way to check for voltage is with a no contact voltage sensor (about $10-15). You simply hold it next to a wire and if there is voltage (current) on the wire the sensor flashes and beeps. Suggest you invest in one.

Forget about replacing outlets for now.

Describe wiring as requested.

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Yes, the black and white and copper are all where they should be.

That doesn't tell me any thing. You have to be my eyes.

There are no, or shouldn't be any, wiring connections in the walls. All wiring connections have to be accessible. In other word they have to be at outlets, switches or at boxes that that you can see and open. The reason for that is, if people have the kind of problems you are having, the fault can be found without damage to the structure.

So please purchase a voltage sensor and answer all my questions.