This debate started on another thread, and I didn't want to continue hijacking it, so I figured it was time to bring the debate to its own thread.

Vet care is expensive. Anyone that has a pet knows this. If your pet gets sick you can spend a months, or even more, worth of pay, and still not get an answer, or a healthy pet.

I made a comment in this other thread that most vets are rich. Another respected member disagreed.

I'm sure there are vets that aren't rich, because they're fair. I've found one in my lifetime, that didn't gouge us for every last penny we had just to fix our beloved fur baby. The rest charged us through the roof, usually didn't solve the issue, and then continued gouging us for continued care of an issue they never diagnosed to begin with.

When our beloved Jasper became ill we took him to the vet many times in the 5 days from the start of his illness, until the end. Test after test, hundreds of dollars here and there. We never got a diagnosis. Many hundreds of dollars later on tests and medication that didn't work, or tell us what was going on, he couldn't even lift his head. It was decided that ending things would be best for him. With no diagnosis, and no improvement, he was dying a slow painful death. So to add insult to injury, after paying all this money to help him, we had to pay more money for them to kill him.

Not that it's the vets fault. But really, who can afford to spend thousands of dollars when their pet is sick? Should only the super rich have pets, since they're really the only ones that can afford an emergency? What about all the animals in the shelters? Shouldn't there be a way for an average family to afford to have a pet, and afford to make sure that that pet is healthy, and happy?

I pay over $400 a year just to have my two dogs vaccinated. I paid $300 to have my one store bought rabbit neutered. The other three, one was found on the street and too old to spay, the other two were adopted from the shelter and were already fixed when we adopted them for a fee of $25.

All vets may not be rich, but neither are the people that come to them for help. So what's the solution? Should we not allow anyone that isn't wealthy to have pets? I know that there are vets that make a living, but don't gouge their patients, I've found one of those vets, and I've had friends that have found those vets. There are vets out there that actually became vets to help animals. But the majority I've found are only in it for the money, and they aren't living paycheck to paycheck like the rest of us.

Don't have the cash, and your animal is sick, they won't even look at the animal. Come back when you have the money and maybe, after many tests and a few thousand dollars, we'll be able to help, but probably not. Do you want to try a blood test? It will cost $250, and we probably won't figure out what's wrong by doing it, but hey, you're already spending a fortune because you love your pet, so we'll try to get every penny we can out of you before your pet dies.

So what's the solution so that all animals can receive the care they need, and anyone that is willing to give an animal a good home, can afford to do so?

Sorry if I sound bitter, but truth told, I am.

The clinic that I found to be cheapest around here is called The Rascal Unit Hospital. It started with a wonderful woman that was heart broken by the number of strays and decided to run and operate her own Mobile low cost spay and neuter Van. From there she opened up a hospital and applied the same prices there. I have already looked into getting my Great Dane spayed after this "pending" litter and total cost for an over night stay with pain meds for a 127 lb dog will cost us $130. The clinic that we originally went to with her wants to charge me $370 for the same surgery! Why such a difference?

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Originally Posted by Raven Rayne

The clinic that I found to be cheapest around here is called The Rascal Unit Hospital. It started with a wonderful woman that was heart broken by the number of strays and decided to run and operate her own Mobile low cost spay and neuter Van. From there she opened up a hospital and applied the same prices there. I have already looked into getting my Great Dane spayed after this "pending" litter and total cost for an over night stay with pain meds for a 127 lb dog will cost us 0. The clinic that we originally went to with her wants to charge me 0 for the same surgery! Why such a difference?

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Wow! I'd kill to be able to get a neuter for $130. With our vet, and all the other clinics I've found, the price ranges from $300 (that's not including pain meds, a cone, etc) to $500 (not including pain meds, a cone etc).

I agree, why the difference? My guess is that one vet charges only for the surgery, the medication needed, and a small fee to compensate them for the task, and the other vet charges over and above. That's most like also the vet that doesn't even have pets of their own, lives in a huge house, and only does this for the money. You can bring your dog there for years, they great her by name, but when there's an emergency, if you don't have the cash, too bad, they won't help. They don't care about the animal, they're in it for the money. Otherwise why the difference in cost?

You can't tell me that they're doing it at cost, that they're not making any money even at $130. That would be foolish. No one works for free. So why the difference in the same town?

I have to say, when you posted "The Rascal Unit Hospital" I smiled. Our border collie is named Rascal. A name he's earned. :) Our beagle is Chewy, a name he also earned. Sadly, I sometimes think that by giving them those names, they decided they had to live up to them. I should have name them "Good dog" and "Very good dog". ;)

But hey, they're lovies, even if they can drive me crazy at times.

I just looked on The Rascal Unit Hospitals page and they only charge $45 for a rabbit spay/neuter. Rabies shots through them are $8, or you can combo 3 shots for $25! I have a feeling I'm going to LOVE this place. I don't own any rabbits as 3/4 of us are allergic to them but I know that you have some.

Dog Neuter

Up to 20 lbs $40

20.1 to 40 lbs $45

40.1 to 60 lbs $50

60.1 to 80 lbs $60

80.1 to 100 lbs $70

100.1 to 150 lbs $100

150.1 lbs and up $125



Cat Spay $45 Cat Neuter $35

Rabbit Spay or Neuter $50

$2-5 per surgery travel fee may apply

Dog Spay

Up to 20 lbs $50

20.1 to 40 lbs $55

40.1 to 60 lbs $60

60.1 to 80 lbs $70

80.1 to 100 lbs $80

100.1 to 150 lbs $100

150.1 lbs and up $120

This is the pricing I took from the page. It's insanely cheap compared to other vets

Don't forget Alty that vets have to pay back hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans. They also have malpractice insurance to pay monthly and that can be in the $10,000 range per month. There is also overhead, lights, employees, food, medications, supplies, etc.

I know of very few vets under the age of 60 who are actually "rich." They have to charge according to what their payout is monthly and just a little extra to take home. I think it all may depend on the size of the clinic among many other factors.

I would look at the sizes and number of employees at each clinic, payroll is the largest expense in most clinics, then add to that the medications, supplies, (which I usually unpack and note invoices) Meds and supplies are not cheap.
That may not be the difference in these two clinics but is is a factor to consider.
NOT taking up for overcharging, I know there are those that will, simply because they can or because of the area there are in.

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Originally Posted by Raven Rayne

Dog Spay

Up to 20 lbs

20.1 to 40 lbs

40.1 to 60 lbs

60.1 to 80 lbs

80.1 to 100 lbs

100.1 to 150 lbs 0

150.1 lbs and up 0

This is the pricing I took from the page. It's insanely cheap compared to other vets

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I may have to move to where you live. Those prices are insanely great, at least compared to what I pay.

I'll bite.

As mentioned in the previous thread - the schooling that vets go through to do what the do is very very similar to what human doctors do. It's basically a PHD in that sense. It's a Doctorate. It takes about 8 years and most vets are more than $100,000 in debt once they graduate. They get out of school and usually make similar to something like a Registered Nurse ($25-$45 an hour).
A vet who owns their own practice generally makes more. However, I know about 40 Veterinarians, and only one lives a relatively "Lavish" lifestyle. Several live paycheque to paycheque, trying to jumble kids, a mortgage, car payments, and massive student loan payments. And this is KNOWING them on a personal level, not seeing them in a practice.
I am also very active in a Facebook group for Veterinary Professionals, that has 10,000 members. Maybe 5% are the exception.

Practices are EXPENSIVE to run. Most clinics have to be either custom-built, or go through extensive renovation to be properly certified to do what they need to do. There are hundreds of thousands of dollars of equipment that NEEDS to be in a hospital in order for them to be even allowed to open. This equipment has maintenance. It breaks, it requires repair. There are tremendous amounts of hydro being used. There are property taxes and insurance. There is an extensive pharmacy - and in the back there is a large amount of drugs that HAVE to be kept. Thousands of dollars are thrown away when these drugs are thrown out because they are expired - but more must be ordered because it's REQUIRED. There are usually other vets in the practice that must be paid. There are RVT's to be paid. There's reception, there's assistants, there's kennel staff.

A lot of people do not understand the true cost of medical care - getting a dog spayed may be a couple hundred bucks. If that was human medicine, add a couple of zeroes to that price. Most people don't know this cost because it is subsidized by insurance.
Since the recession, I have noticed it being not-uncommon for practices to have to cut staff because they literally cannot afford to pay them and have cut back literally everything they can.

I went to school for 3 years to do what I do. Its basically a nurse for animals. In a nutshell I work as an ER nurse, a receptionist, a laboratory technician, a x-ray technician, a surgical assistant, an anesthesiologist, a pharmacy technician, a phlebotomist, a physiotherapist, and much, much more. I get paid peanuts. I live paycheque to paycheque and could not afford to live by myself. I drive a crappy car, eat crappy food, and make only a few dollars an hour above minimum wage.

That's the other end of the spectrum. There are bad vets, but they are NOT the majority. At all. Vets are people and need to make a living. Some clinics are more expensive, yes. However, you often get what you pay for. The difference between a $100 surgery and a $500 surgery is often things such as thorough anesthetic monitoring, proper patient warming, IV fluids, safer anesthetic drugs, etc.
We have a lower cost clinic nearby, and we get cases from them a few times a month. It's honestly sub-par care, and I cringe when I hear people are going there. Their animals are not monitored (literally put under, hooked up and the surgeon is the only person in there), no IV fluids, or even a port to administer drugs (not that it matters, because no one would know if something is wrong), older drugs that are considered less-than-ideal are used to cut costs. I hate it.
It is unfortunate that a lot of people cannot afford vet care. But it's something everyone needs to know about. I got a Great Dane. I KNOW that he will cost me thousands in vet care in his later years. I saved up about $6,000 to put aside for his care, as well as opening a no-fee credit card for emergencies. He is also insured with pet insurance. I am prepared. That has saved his life.
I find them similar to kids. They are not cheap to have, and that's why some people do not have them. Pet's are not a right, they are a privileged that should only be purchased when one is aware enough to understand the unexpected costs that may come with owning them.

ALSO - I have a secret. My clinic has about $330,000 in outstanding accounts. You know what these are? These are people who seemed genuine. They had an emergency, and had no money. They had all the excuses in he book as to why they could not afford care, but promised and promised to pay us back. That $330,000 is the reason why most vets require immediate payment. It is NOT the vets fault. Blame those who have ruined it for everyone else. This was more than double last year before we started using a collection agency.

No one works for free. If we could, we would all make vet care free. But we can't. No one would be able to work, and there would be no one there to help your pet. Vets and their front line staff are berated every day and accused of being cold an uncaring because we will not give care away for free. And we discount a lot - for some people, it doesn't matter what discount you give - they think that they're entitled to our charity and if they don't get it, we don't love animals, only money. It's emotional blackmail and it hurts because in that moment, it's pretty clear that we care more about their pet than they do. And it happens a lot. More than I'd like to know.

And I don't get the blackmail with vets - do these same people do this to mechanics? If you cared about my safety while driving my car, why wouldn't you do this for free? Don't you WANT to make sure I'm safe? What about dentists? If you cared about my health, you'd do it for free! Don't you CARE about my dental health? What about grocers? If you cared about me and my family, wouldn't you GIVE us food for free? Don't you CARE about me and my family eating tonight?
Give me a break.


Anyway, that is my opinion. And it's formed from working in the industry for 14 years, knowing about 40 vets, 60+ veterinary support personnel, and being in an active group of 10,000 vets, techs, and assistants from around the world. I feel like I always have my back up on this subject. Sorry that it was all over the place.

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Originally Posted by J_9

Don't forget Alty that vets have to pay back hundreds of thousands of dollars in student loans. They also have malpractice insurance to pay monthly and that can be in the ,000 range per month. There is also overhead, lights, employees, food, medications, supplies, etc.

I know of very few vets under the age of 60 who are actually "rich." They have to charge according to what their payout is monthly and just a little extra to take home. I think it all may depend on the size of the clinic among many other factors.

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Oh I get that J. They chose to become vets, they had to go to school to do so, which meant paying for their education. I get that. I did that too when I went to college. This was the profession they chose, and I'm very sure that the costs were something they considered when choosing this profession.

All but one of the vets I've been to are rich, live in mansions compared to the rest of the population. The one that I did know (he retired many years ago) that didn't charge over and above, just charged enough to make a profit so he wasn't working for free, still lived in a very nice home, and wasn't living paycheck to paycheck. His wife didn't work at all. They didn't worry about money.

But that's not really what I'm talking about. I'm talking about pet owners. If one vet charges $370 for a spay, and another, in the same town, charges $130, then something is obviously wrong. They're both vets. They both had the same education, and the same costs associated with that education and working in their field. You can't tell me that the one charging $130, is taking a cut, working for free. No sane person would do that. So why the cost difference? How can the average person afford the costs of most vets?

If your dog has parvo, expect to spend upwards of $5000 where I live. Who can afford that? I know I can't. So what are my options? Most vets won't take the dog on unless I can pay up front. So I can either try to treat my dog at home (which won't work), get a loan (it takes days to do that, and by that time my dog will be dead), or just watch my dog die. Does that mean I shouldn't have a pet, because I can't afford to spend a months pay on treatment if it gets sick, and spending that money would mean losing my house, not feeding my family, not even having money for gas so my husband can go to work, and there's no guarantee that my dog will even live?

I live in rural CT near MA and NY corner. Vets here used to be reasonable, and they did farm animals too. It all changed suddenly and I think this might be true most places. Now they have beautiful buildings, lots of staff, lots of forms to fill out, often a side store and kennel and training. It cost me $140 a pop to find out whether my dog's ear infections were bacterial or yeast or both, treatments lasted 10 days, she got hematomas from shaking her ears after I put the drops in them, and finally I stopped going. I clean her ears twice a day. Some of the techs were terribly uninformed, gave out a small portion of the pills I was supposed to get in a raging snow storm and I had to go back, and I got overcharged for my last dog's cremation. They wanted over $400 to spay my kitten, so I drove quite a distance to a non profit clinic who charged $60.

I wish it were legal to have a van drive around just to treat ears!

Big pet chain stores have cheap rabies shots clinics with huge long lines out the door. Some cities have them too.
But that's it.

The average income for private practice in the United States rose from $105,510 in 2005 to $115,447 in 2007, according to wikipedia. The degree is a DVM, not PhD.

I adore my vet. I will not go to another one. I got lucky as we just googled for vets close to us and went there.
Why I love my vet is:
1. My cat Pony (RIP boy). He had allergies, severe allergies. She worked with us. She explained every test she was thinking of doing, told us the cost and told us how helpful it would be. She even paid for some of us medication for us. Apparently there is an online vet forum, she talked to vets there about Pony, trying to get us information and help. When we made the sad decision Pony was suffering and to let him cross to the bridge she cried with us. When it came time to pay the bill, all we got charged was the taxes. With all of the tests she did, Pony never ever, hissed, growled, bite, or scratch her. He loved her and would snuggle with her as if he knew she would help. Pony was his nickname his real name was Chronoz. I still miss him.
2. Owen and all of his issues she has done the same with. She understands our money situation and always explains cost versus necessity. I remember once she took Owen to meet people in the office who were scared of him due to his size. She showed them bully breeds are not be to scared of.
3. I don't care what others say about my vet. I love her, my pets love her and she is our vet. I remember once having to take Pony to the emergency vet as his allergies flared. They wanted to run tests to see what his allergies were, to vaccinate him etc. I said no just treat him so he is comfie until Monday. He will be going to his regular vet then. Pony never had any vaccinations due to the vet unsure if his body could handle it or not.

I do feel bad for people who do not have a great vet like I do. I wish all were like Amy (my vet).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joypulv

I live in rural CT near MA and NY corner. Vets here used to be reasonable, and they did farm animals too. It all changed suddenly and I think this might be true most places. Now they have beautiful buildings, lots of staff, lots of forms to fill out, often a side store and kennel and training. It cost me 0 a pop to find out whether my dog's ear infections were bacterial or yeast or both, treatments lasted 10 days, she got hematomas from shaking her ears after I put the drops in them, and finally I stopped going. I clean her ears twice a day. Some of the techs were terribly uninformed, gave out a small portion of the pills I was supposed to get in a raging snow storm and I had to go back, and I got overcharged for my last dog's cremation. They wanted over 0 to spay my kitten, so I drove quite a distance to a non profit clinic who charged .

I wish it were legal to have a van drive around just to treat ears!

Big pet chain stores have cheap rabies shots clinics with huge long lines out the door. Some cities have them too.
But that's it.

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I have a beagle right now with constant ear infections. We've spent thousands on swabs, and pills. He's 5 years old. None of the treatments work.

Just to walk in costs $100, that's without a vet even seeing your dog. Then comes the spiel "We can do a swab to find out if it's yeast or something else, that costs $150". NO! He's had this issue since he was a puppy, I don't need a swab, unless you finally figured out you're wrong and the treatment you're giving doesn't work because we're back here for the same issue every few months.

Then it's "We can do an ear wash for $200. That should work". Been there, done that, it didn't work. I'm here every 2 months with the same issue. It's time to find something that works!

The treatment, the same crappy drops he's been on since he was 12 weeks old. No improvement. We're back at the vet every 3 months because of his ear issues. At this point I feel like I should just send them a blank check and tell the to screw me to the wall, because nothing they're doing helps at all.

Sadly, they're the best and least expensive vet in my area. That's saying a lot considering the care we've gotten for our pets. :(

Quote:

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Originally Posted by joypulv

The average income for private practice in the United States rose from 5,510 in 2005 to 5,447 in 2007, according to wikipedia. The degree is a DVM, not PhD.

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You're right. It's a Doctorate. Not much difference.

That is the salary for a private practice OWNER. That is someone who either had a hefty start-up loan, or have worked in the field for YEARS and have their debts paid off.
Vets starting earn from about $40,000-$60,000. It takes years to build up your income to make six figures.
Look at Doctors - average salary for them is $175,000-$275,000.
Dentists? $137,000 - $256,000
Pharmacists? $111,000, $135,000
Surgeons? $260,000-$400,000

Funny how vets learn all of the above in their school, and the top paying vets make about $160,000.

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Originally Posted by Alty

I have a beagle right now with constant ear infections. We've spent thousands on swabs, and pills. He's 5 years old. None of the treatments work.

Just to walk in costs 0, that's without a vet even seeing your dog. Then comes the spiel "We can do a swab to find out if it's yeast or something else, that costs 0". NO! He's had this issue since he was a puppy, I don't need a swab, unless you finally figured out you're wrong and the treatment you're giving doesn't work because we're back here for the same issue every few months.

Then it's "We can do an ear wash for 0. That should work". Been there, done that, it didn't work. I'm here every 2 months with the same issue. It's time to find something that works!

The treatment, the same crappy drops he's been on since he was 12 weeks old. No improvement. We're back at the vet every 3 months because of his ear issues. At this point I feel like I should just send them a blank check and tell the to screw me to the wall, because nothing they're doing helps at all.

Sadly, they're the best and least expensive vet in my area. That's saying a lot considering the care we've gotten for our pets. :(

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Have they cultured the ear yet? If he's been on the same drops for 5 years, he's obviously built up a resistance. What about a thyroid test? Allergy testing?

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Originally Posted by Sariss

Have they cultured the ear yet? If he's been on the same drops for 5 years, he's obviously built up a resistance. What about a thyroid test?

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Thanks for asking. They've cultured the ear 2 times a year for the last 5 years. Always the same outcome, always the same drops, always back 3 months later with the same issue. We've had 2 thyroid tests ($250 each), both came back clear for thyroid issues.

I get it, he's a long eared dog, and they have ear issues. The drops do help, they get the infection down, but as soon as the drops are done, the infection comes back. So I called them and asked if I could just buy more drops, since he's never been prescribed anything else in the 5 years since this started. They said no, he has to come in, get swabs, etc. at least a $400 visit. I can't afford to keep doing this every 3 months for something that doesn't work long term.

So I tried to find the drops online. No luck yet.

Everything else we've tried hasn't worked. But we can't afford to keep putting a bandaid on the problem, without fixing it. :(

Sorry, forgot to add, all the swabs came back as a yeast infection. No allergy issues. He's a beagle, apparently this is a common issue for beagles because of their long ears. But who can afford to keep putting drops in when they don't work. I hate seeing him suffer all the time, with only a temporary relief. At this point I'm taking it into my own hands, trying to find a natural cure, because I'm tired of paying money towards something that doesn't fix anything long term.

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Originally Posted by Alty

Thanks for asking. They've cultured the ear 2 times a year for the last 5 years. Always the same outcome, always the same drops, always back 3 months later with the same issue. We've had 2 thyroid tests (0 each), both came back clear for thyroid issues.

I get it, he's a long eared dog, and they have ear issues. The drops do help, they get the infection down, but as soon as the drops are done, the infection comes back. So I called them and asked if I could just buy more drops, since he's never been prescribed anything else in the 5 years since this started. They said no, he has to come in, get swabs, etc. at least a 0 visit. I can't afford to keep doing this every 3 months for something that doesn't work long term.

So I tried to find the drops online. No luck yet.

Everything else we've tried hasn't worked. But we can't afford to keep putting a bandaid on the problem, without fixing it. :(

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Have they done allergy testing?
Does the infection clear after the drops? What do you do with the ears between when they clear and the infection is back?

Edit: Allergies can pre-dispose pets to both bacterial and yeast infections in the skin and ears. It's something to look into if you haven't.

The Rascal Unit Hospital that I have been posting about, the reason why I know about them is 2 times a month they bring their Van to the local Humane Society and spay/neuter 100-130 in one day. There's 3 Vets, and 8 techs that come with them. I have an almost two year old cat that has 27 toes. Along with that defect he also only "dropped" one testicle. They had to cut his stomach open and do exploratory surgery to look for his other one. After doing this they came up empty and took him back to the hospital with them and had a tech bring him to us 2 days later. We took him back to the mobile van 2 months later so they could do a blood test to she if he had any of his male hormones still which he didn't. After all of that I paid $75 and I still thank Michelle every time I see her for going over and beyond for one cat. Her answer to me was, they can't help the fact that they were born, but as a vet I can make sure they live a happy and healthy life without bringing more un-homed babies into this crazy world. Michelle has even allowed me to watch a spay on a pregnant dog just so that I (as a volunteer there) could help explain what happens during surgery and how well they care for others pets. We've even had a woman bring in her 3 pits to be spayed them didn't ever come back to get them. In the town I live pits can not be adopted out other than to 501c3 rescue groups so Michelle came back on her own time to sign the dogs out (for medical reason) so that they wouldn't be "put down" and she found them responsible homes in a different county. Some Vets do have hearts and do care and are willing to go beyond what's expected. Others however I fear have the "How can we screw you today?" Outlook.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sariss

Have they done allergy testing?
Does the infection clear after the drops? What do you do with the ears between when they clear and the infection is back?

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Sorry, I did add more to my post, but too late.

Yes, he's been tested for allergies and he's clear, no allergies. All the swabs have come back as a yeast infection. The infection gets better after the drops, and medication, but never completely clears up. Days after the drops are done, the infections is back.

We clean his ears daily with medication the vet prescribed to simply clean the ear. I'd have to find the bottle to tell you what it's called. There are also drops that we administer daily that are supposed to help. I have that bottle in front of me, but it leaked, and now the tab on it is not readable. It's a small bottle, like eye drops, has a red line on the bottom of the tab which is really the only thing still visible on it. :( It's daily maintenance. Doesn't work.

Lately we've been trying new things, since I long gave up on the drops the vet prescribed. We've tried UP honey, and that helped, but didn't cure it. We even tried monistat, it's for vaginal yeast infections in humans. Consulted with a vet about that before I tried it, and it was a go, so I figured it was worth a try. Figured it couldn't hurt. It didn't, and it did clear up, but the infection came back again. We clean his ears 3 times a day now, and they're bad. But I'm tired of going to the vet, paying hundreds of dollars just so they can prescribe the same drops that haven't helped for the last 5 years.

Right now we're using ear wipes, monistat, eyewash (my son had major diaper rashes caused by a yeast infection when he was a baby. The eyewash worked wonders), which we only started using today, so no results yet. We're applying UP honey, which helps, and a cream (not sure what it's called, I'd have to check)

We're doing our best to help him, but really, I just can't afford to keep going to the vet for more drops that don't do a thing. I'm so tired of seeing Chewy in pain because of his ears. I'd pay everything I have if I could just end it, and I've paid more than most to try to find a solution, but it's always the same crap that doesn't help. So I've taken matters into my own hands to help him.