My husband and I adopted our now 5 year old Chocolate Lab from a rescue agency. Aside of the blatant lies we were told about her, we have found that she is truly unable to be trained. We have worked with her going on 2 years and have only been able to get her to sit quietly before she is allowed to eat. When training her with treats, she gets so excited/nervous/nutso that all she can do is focus on the treat and is unable to pay attention to anything else. Even if we put the treat away, she still thinks we have it and goes crazy. We have tried training her with rewards that don't involve treats, however if we try to pet her or say "good girl" she completely forgets what she was doing. I feel like we are in a no-win situation with her. We were told she gets along with cats, but tried to kill my brother's cat the instant she saw it. We were told she likes to fetch and play with toys, but has no eye/mouth coordination because the toy will hit her on the head like she was unable to see it when we toss it to her.

All I want to be able to do is train her with the most basic commands (ie. Sit, down, stay, off, come) but I feel totally hopeless. Every time I put on her leash to train, she goes insane and won't listen... even if I give her the sharp tug on the choker to correct her and get her attention. I have come to the conclusion that she was given up by her previous owners because she was totally unable to learn anything. I am not proposing that will ever happen, but I would like to be able to live in peace with the dog we brought into our family.

Oh, and I should mention that we took her to 2 obedience classes (failed miserably each time) and to a very expensive behavioralist who was unable to help us. :confused:

Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Thank you

Wag and Train - Dog obedience classes - Denver, Colorado
This may help.

I appreciate the link, but I live in WI and don't think that would work out too well for me. Thank you anyway.

I feel for you but I may know someone who could help. She is the most gifted trainer I have ever known and a very charitable woman! Seriously, God gave her a wonderful gift with dogs-she trains the untrainable as well as drug dogs for many police forces. The bonus is: she's not a weirdo! Contact her at [email protected] . I will email her and let her know to be watching for your email. Don't give up!

The first thing I would suggest is that you stop rewarding with treats. The second thing would be to get rid of the choke collar and go with a flat collar. Also harnesses work well with labs. Does she get a LOT of physical exercise? (I mean a LOT!! ) You must make the dog respect you. Is there anything she does and does well?? In my opinion, you need to start with small successes.

You are lucky, actually. My chocolate lab (also a rescue) came to me as a foster 'kid' with severe anxiety issues. It has taken a lot of very hard work to get him half-way respectable. :) He destroyed three dog cages, about 20 sets of curtains, countless pillows and blankets, 3 sets of blinds, a bookshelf full of books and games... you get the idea. We call him "Houndini" as a joke because he can escape ANYTHING... either it opens or he eats his way out.

I make sure we go for a minimum of two rambunctious walks a day and, in the nicer weather, at least one swim. I also play fetch to the extreme with him and I have a Bernese Mountain Dog who he plays with. In the winter we play 'hockey' on the drive with an empty plastic container.

These types of dogs really need a tremendous amount of exercise. They also need to be fed twice a day. One of the first controls you can gain on your dog is that he knows the food is coming from you. I feed at 9 am and 6 pm in my house. It works into my schedule perfectly. So, what I do is fill the bowl in the morning while he is outside (he is usually on the back porch listening). If you have not mastered sit for a lengthy period, then your next step would be to let her into the room and say firmly "Sit!". Then just wait for her to do it. When she does, say, "Okay! Good girl!" with excitement and place the food dish on the floor. Each time wait longer and longer before you say "OKay!" which will become your 'release' word. If she stands, you can either do nothing and wait (she will eventually sit again!) or you can set the food dish on the counter and try to have her sit by stepping towards her while holding a leash or her collar at the neck underneath her nose area and gently pulling up while stepping towards her and if necessary pushing her butt down with the other hand. Make her have eye contact with you.

I would recommend that in the beginning you just wait until she does it and try to ensure you don't say "Okay!" until she has sat for a reasonable length of time. It sounds like you may have mastered that. You should say nothing else other than "Sit" once until she does it. Again, the idea is to keep it positive, so start with a short sit, then gradually increase the time each week. I would also say that you work on NOTHING else except "Sit!" until it is mastered. Then you will place the food down on the floor and make her sit when she comes in the room until you give the command "Okay!"

I personally am a firm believer in the umbilical cord method of training a dog, especially for the more difficult ones. They must learn that you control the shots. If you stand and walk, then they must stand and walk. If you sit to watch TV then they sit/lie down quietly and wait. This is the only other thing that I would add besides 'Sit!". Once you get control of her in the house, then you can work it outside. When you do this, if you are walking in one direction and the dog starts to walk ahead, pull, stop, anything out of the norm, then you walk in a different direction. The dog begins to pay constant attention to you... getting her cues from you. That puts you in control.

If you would like to send a private message for more ideas you can do so by clicking on my name at the left and choosing 'Send a private message to... '.

It will be a tough go, but the dog is only as trainable as the owner! :)

Good luck!

Didi

Oh, I wanted to add... if you are leashing her and she is going rangy just do nothing except put the leash on, say "Sit" and stand still. Say nothing else, do not move, etc. Do this 5 or 10 times a day until she just sits quietly. When she does, unclip it and say, "Okay! Good girl!" and let her go. Give her lots of pats and praise. She'll gradually calm down.

Didi

Thank you, Grammadidi, your response was very thorough. I actually have stopped with treats (since they make her very nutty) and have resorted to the choker after using every alternative out there. I tired the gentle lead, in which she was able to get off every time I put it on her. She even escaped when the trainer put it on her. Flat collars gave me no relief, either.

She gets a TON of exercise. We have a Blue Heeler and the two of them exercise each other for hours on end. After playing with them for at least an hour and a half at a time, they are dead tired, but as soon as something out of the ordinary occurs, she's a crazy animal once again. I actually expected her to be calmer than my Heeler (especially since he is half her age and pretty much still a puppy) but he is so much better behaved than her... after extensive training.

Like I had mentioned, I have gotten her to sit prior to feeding her (the dogs are fed at 8 AM and 6 PM, just like the doc ordered) however, while she is sitting, her front paws do a tap dance because she can barely contain herself. I can wait and wait and wait, but she continues to dance like an idiot. She just won't stop moving. I realize that just having her butt on the floor is a step in the right direction, it just feels at this rate, she will be elderly by the time we master no jumping on people.

We have worked with her on getting over her fear of people's hands, but she still winces when you go to pet her all the while saying "good girl" in a very positive tone. This is after we have had her for 2 years now. I have my suspicions that she was severely abused at her prior couple of homes.

The one thing I have not tried is putting on her leash 5 to 10 times at a time without giving the actual reward of going outside. That could be a good way to have her calmer when trying to get the leash on her. I think I will also try opening the main door during this so she realizes nothing is going to happen... or at least I can hope. :-)

I'd like to think I have been giving all I can, especially with the knowledge I have gained. I would never think of giving her up, but I know that I will become a crazy lady if we don't progress a little.

Thank you for everyone's input.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bobkat13

I would never think of giving her up, but I know that I will become a crazy lady if we don't progress a little.

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Oh, do I ever know what you mean! :) I think you will find that leash thing a real good tool. While I worked on the separation anxiety I used to go through all the motions of going out, then stay home. It finally got to the point where if Browni (Houndini) hears me go into the cupboard and take my keys out of my pocket he might come and look, but a lot of the time now he just lays on the bed with a sad look in his eyes. :)

I think the key is in switching routines so the dog hasn't got a clue of what's going on! They have to pay attention to you because things aren't happening the way they usually do. Also, have you tried hand signals? With my dogs I teach a number of ways and I use both hand and verbal cues.

Anyhow, I still would just pick one thing at a time to work with... oh, and the dancing feet at supper time... that's pretty typical of labs. They are food driven and insatiable! You will probably have to just accept that one. Hahaha!

Best of luck, hope some of my ideas help a bit... I am sure she has suffered more than we can imagine.

Didi

I am very sorry you are accepting the above advice. I can't take time to point out all the errors, but 3 of the most obvious are the treats, the slip collar, and 2 meals a day. The dog guide school that has successfully trained thousands of Labs uses treats, slip collars, and feeds once a day. They have a lot more experience with Labs than all the people that have ever answer dog questions here put together. And there are another dozen schools doing about the same.

For somebody to suggest using PM's shows a great lack of confidence in not wanting their answer subject to public rebuttal. It also violate site policy.

There is an incredible amount nonsense around on the care and training of dogs. One thing you must accept is the limited amount you will be able to do with this dog. Ask any real dog expert, and they will tell you good breeding and early socialization is very important. It is one big difference between your dog and the dog guides I am familiar with or even the pets that excel at obedience and agility or just pass their Canine Good Citizens test.

You have been a victim starting with the agency that placed the dog with you, the obedience instructors, the behaviorist, and now the answers above.

You have wisely set limited goals. You are making some progress on teaching her you are the leader. That is essential. Likely she was born with a high drive for dominance. That was followed by poor early socialization and she was then allowed to mature without receiving the leadership she needed. You were wise to go to obedience classes, but many of the instructors have never encountered a truly dominant dog and good behaviorists are hard to find. I have a lot of experience with dominant dogs. I am sure, that like me before I became part of the program, I didn't realize dog guides are bred to be strong willed and bold. It is part of the reason 80% of them are Labs now. One big difficulty with them is training the people to handle the best of the dogs. They have to learn to be top dog. You do to, Establishing and Keeping Alpha Position None of the other advice here will do any more than your obedience classes if you don't become top dog.

I can encourage you to apply the technique I am sure you used to get the sit quietly for dinner, you want to eat, sit. The keeper of the kibble has great power. You can apply it to things like going for a walk. If she pulls you arm off with a slip collar, go to a head collar. The leading brands are Promise, Haltie, and Gentle Leader. They have a strap going around the dogs nose looking something like a muzzle. They work by pulling the dogs head around. No other way gives you such great control with so little force.

It is beyond the scope of AMHD to solve such a severe problem. I think the best thing is a good behaviorist. I don't have a clue how to find a better one than the last. I can steer you towards a good book. See the list of books at https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/dogs/i...tml#post251804 I have only read a few of them, and the ones I have read are great books, but not the right one for you. I guess look at titles like Don't Shoot the Dog, or Second Hand Dog. The book list was put together by people with years of experience with difficult Labs. Ones that have become problems as they matured at 3 years old and will have to be replaced at $35,000 if the dog's partner can't be mentored into being top dog

So essentially, she is not dumb, she just feels dominant over everything? That would explain her need to fight with every dog she encounters. Even if the dog is 3 times the size of her (which is easy because she is a small lab at 50#) she will still get nasty.

I tried explaining that I have done everything the others posted above and nothing worked. I will take a good look at becoming the top dog. Our heeler knows it, but we raised him as a puppy and he has turned out into a wonderful dog!

As for the feeding, our vet recommended 2 feedings a day. What is the benefit of feeding once daily compared to twice?

Thank you for your expertise.

I also forgot to mention another problem (that I'm sure is somewhere in the books I have purchased through your recommendation) is that whenever I buy a new rug, or change a rug in a room, she defecates on it. Is that her way of telling me she is the ruler of the roost? She never has "accidents" any other time.

Your vet may have a specific reason to suggest the second meal. Unless you discussed it with the vet, I would follow it. In most cases it isn't necessary.

Rather than dumb, your dog may be the classic, smart enough to know exactly what you want, and how to get what it wants without doing it.

You have a tough job on your hands, and I admire you for your commitment to her.

There were so many other issues, I forgot about this one, ''We were told she likes to fetch and play with toys, but has no eye/mouth coordination because the toy will hit her on the head like she was unable to see it when we toss it to her.''

Is it possible she is blind? A quick check is to move you hand back and forth in front of her. If her eyes don't track it, she may be blind. You may need to hold a ball or a treat inyour hand. Dogs cope well with blindness, but if so, knowing it could help understanding and managing her.

I had asked the vet if she was blind a long time ago when I noticed she lets things hit her on the head when thrown to her. The vet said absolutely not. Then, before we realized she can't get along with cats, we took her to my parents house (they have a cat who is very calm with dogs) and Kat lunged towards the cat and almost killed her had my dad not stepped in and saved the cat. She also brings mice that she catches in the yard to the porch, so I doubt highly that she is unable to see. Hope that gives a little more insight to my issue.

Thanks