We purchased this property in feb 2000. It went through the title company, and we purchased title insurance at the time of purchase. The property consisted of 7 commercial city lots, in bouse, az. There was an existing fence separating the lots into sections of 4 and 3 lots. In August 2007, it became necessary to split the lots and sell the 4 lot section, with the house, store, carport, shop and existing propane business.
The purchaser, was a real estate broker, who bought that section for a satellite office for her real estate business. The land split was listed in the escrow contract, so there was no surprise that it had been done.
The sale was final in nov 2007, and no survey was done at that time, and she didn't miss any thing else that we were required to do, so there was never any questions.
That is until we started trying to put in the septic system on the remaining 3 lots we kept, as was planned all along and they knew it. But none the less, during that process, they apparently discovered that one of the lots is actually supposed to be 29.6 ft wide, which they didn't ever bring up until now.
Suddenly a lawsuit has been filed, accusing us of trespassing, and the fence is allegedly 4.6 ft inside the property that was sold. But if they knew like they said quite some time ago, but chose not to say anything, because they didn't want to start any other problems. So they wait until we have our business finally well on its way to being rebuilt, and we are all on zero clearance commercial lots, they now want to move the existing fence 4.6 ft into our business. We would have to tear down structures, and move mom's living quarters, landscaping and maybe even the septic system we finally got installed after 5 long years. This fence has been were it is for over 40 years. If it was an issue then I feel it should have been done in a timely manner, especially since they knew about this descrepancy long ago, and not after we finally see our business and lives finally coming to fruition. Can they wait till we get built and then make us tear it down; when they have known for several years, that it was even an issue. We had no idea. It was bought as it was, and sold as it was with a clear conscious. The fence was listed as the property line on the land split, show as such for all the drawings that wre submitted for the septic system we had to install on those lots as a requirement for the sale. As well as all the diagrams from when the buildings were built on that property, and the propane dispenser was installed. Since they are not just real estate agents, but a broker and associate broker, they should have known that a survey should have been done prior to closing. But yet they are trying to make us pay the ultimate price, by destroying all of our hard work, to suddenly decide the fence needs to be moved. Please help me with any information, that will help me in this situation, to eliminate the possibility of things getting ugly and out of control if they try to tear down the fence.

How was the property that they bought from described on the deed? That's what controls. Everything else is immaterial.

Please clarify something - are you saying that one of your buildings actually spanned across the lot you kept into the lot you sold?

The fact that there is a fence is not germane. If the lot they bought includes a fence 4.6 feet inside their property line then they own the fence, not you. If they want to tear it down or move it they certainly can.

One option to consider - can you negotiate to buy the 4.6 feet of land from them? That may be the easiest alternative. If not, then if in fact your septic is on their property then yes, you will have to move it at your expense.

Lesson learned - always have an up-to-date survey when doing construction that is coming so close to your neighbor's property line.

Ok, you have some parts of the law on your side.

You say the fence has been there for 40 years. Under AZ law (Phoenix Adverse Possession Attorney :: Adverse Possession :: Gilbert Property Law Lawyer) Adverse possession kicks in when a property has been used for 10 years.

The problems you have is that you owned BOTH lots for more than 10 years. So the point could be made, that you gave yourself permission to use the extra 4 feet.. There is also a matter of how taxes have been paid.

The bottom line here is that you need both a survey and an attorney. The first thing is to determine the true property line. This is done by survey and the description in the deed. Once the property line has been established, then you can try to claim the property on your side of the fence under the doctrine of Adverse Possession and you need an attorney to advise your chances of that.

Finally, as ebaines said, never do construction on or near a property line without determining where the real boundaries are.

Yes I have to say this has been a lesson learned. Thank you for your replies. I know for sure that we pay the taxes on the portion in question. That I know for sure. The actual sale was done by my mother who currently is out of state until October. So I am still waiting to see what the deed says. I know that everything I have seen to point shows all the lots at 25 ft wide. The fence was there when we bought it, but as I am now learning it doesn't always matter. But, we did have a survey done in order to have our septic finally get installed after 5 long years of fighting this neighbor. (the worst part is they wouldn't even be there if mom hadn't had to sell that part). Oh well, live and learn. Anyway, the survey shows our corners even with the fenceline. But she says it is wrong, that the surveyor who did the survey, did it wrong. This is such a messed up area where we live, because the whole area of town where we live is off. The highway is in the wrong place and the property goes right out to the edge of the pavement, and she swears that it doesn't, but my dad had that battle not to long after the purchase by us in 2000. But she knows all, and just keeps stirring it up. They have kept things stirred up for the last near 6 years now. This is just the newest stunt. Anyway thanks again, for your replies, and feel free to add any thing you think may be helpful. I will also keep an update posted as it unfolds. Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by scottgem

ok, you have some parts of the law on your side.

You say the fence has been there for 40 years. Under az law (phoenix adverse possession attorney :: Adverse possession :: Gilbert property law lawyer) adverse possession kicks in when a property has been used for 10 years.

The problems you have is that you owned both lots for more than 10 years. So the point could be made, that you gave yourself permission to use the extra 4 feet.. There is also a matter of how taxes have been paid.

The bottom line here is that you need both a survey and an attorney. The first thing is to determine the true property line. This is done by survey and the description in the deed. Once the property line has been established, then you can try to claim the property on your side of the fence under the doctrine of adverse possession and you need an attorney to advise your chances of that.

Finally, as ebaines said, never do construction on or near a property line without determining where the real boundaries are.

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You don't have to wait until mom comes back to see what the deed says. You can go to the county recorders office to get copies of all 7 lots.

If you did a survey before installing the septic, go back to the surveyor. Let him stand by his work.

And don't worry about the neighbor saying what is right or what is wrong. She can say anything she wants, doesn't mean its so. She will have to satisfy a court of law. And, you can countersue for court costs, if you can show this is malicious.

I would add that you can go to the town tax office and look at the tax map to see how the lots are defined.

Surveys come under dispute all the time! Don't assume that their survey is correct.
Have one done yourself.
Depending on what it says, fight it. But if the whole town is off, chances are a judge might make you split it down the middle, and you still have a problem.
The idea of buying the extra feet is a good one. Or buying an easement, cheaper than actual purchase of a tiny bit of land.

While this is a different situation, there was a recent instance of a similar issue on LI. There was a strip of land 1 FOOT wide and almost 500 feet long. The strip ran from the only road to the beach. There were two houses between the road and the beach. The 2 owners bid for this strip of land at a town auction. It went for $120,000. The owner closer to the beach, didn't want his neighbor walking by his property to get to the beach so he bid it up and finally won it for the $120K.

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Originally Posted by joypulv

surveys come under dispute all the time! Don't assume that their survey is correct.
Have one done yourself.
Depending on what it says, fight it. But if the whole town is off, chances are a judge might make you split it down the middle, and you still have a problem.
The idea of buying the extra feet is a good one. Or buying an easement, cheaper than actual purchase of a tiny bit of land.

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Oh you can count on that. Thesepeople have done every thing known to man, to cause us to give up and leave. They have made it very clear from the very beginning to do what ever they had to, in order to get what they want. That being the other piece of the property where we are. They had said in the very beginning if we ever decided to sell this part, they wanted first dibs. That was fair to us in the beginning until I saw what the true definition of evil is. But after five long years of non stop battles, that they have finally lost because we didn't roll over, like everyone else seems to do. They are intimidated by their name and money, and we aren't. Because right is right and wrong is wrong. I have to believe that the truth will eventually win out. We had a survey first and they have done nothing but run the surveyor into the ground, as well as our contractor, they have put up with untold torture in order to help us win our battle for the right to be able to flush a toilet. What a concept, the things that people take for advantage. Thanks for all the reasurance, and advice. I am willing to try almost anything if it proves our point, that they are not allowed to just push the little people around, just because they can, or think they can. But guess what, I plan to take how ever long it takes to attempt to make sure they have pushed the last person around that was in the way.

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Originally Posted by scottgem

while this is a different situation, there was a recent instance of a similar issue on li. There was a strip of land 1 foot wide and almost 500 feet long. The strip ran from the only road to the beach. There were two houses between the road and the beach. The 2 owners bid for this strip of land at a town auction. It went for $120,000. The owner closer to the beach, didn't want his neighbor walking by his property to get to the beach so he bid it up and finally won it for the $120k.

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Any thing helps. All situations, no matter how different, gives me knowledge. Knowledge and lots of research is how we have survived so far. So thanks for anything that comes up.

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Originally Posted by ebaines

i would add that you can go to the town tax office and look at the tax map to see how the lots are defined.

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Thanks. Things like that are now the focus. We finally just ended 2 other bogus battles that have been on going for some time. Too long for sure. The last 5 years have been on their puppet strings. From one thing to the next. Now we are blessed to have finally won a couple, and got them off our plate. Now this lawsuit is next. Can't afford a lawyer, they have bled us all summer. But we will fight until none of us can fight any more.

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Originally Posted by CACTUSCHICKS

Can't afford a lawyer, they have bled us all summer. But we will fight until none of us can fight any more.

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I would try talking to a few lawyers. Given what you say, it appears that they are harassing you. And, if you win, you could be awarded court costs. So see if you can find an attorney who might take the case on that contingency.

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Originally Posted by scottgem

i would try talking to a few lawyers. Given what you say, it appears that they are harassing you. And, if you win, you could be awarded court costs. So see if you can find an attorney who might take the case on that contingency.

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Thanks again. You are right, they have harassing and bullying down to a science. The hard part about dealing with these folks, is that they are long time residents. The mother is also a long time business woman, with money and stature in the community and surrounding areas. The daughter is the one, who came back to the area again, just prior to when her mom bought that property from my mom, in 2007. She thinks that her mom's name and money, is all she needs to get whatever she wants. Mix that with pure evilness and you just can't guess what she will do next. But to get legal help in our area is impossible. The few lawyers in the area, can't advise us, as they all have represented them in one way or another, or aren't someone you would want to talk to. Any suggestions of lawyers in the phoenix area (that can practice in la paz county) that are worth contacting would be greatly appreciated. If that is possible any way. Not asking any one to violate any policies through this sight. Either way, thanks again for all the suggestions, and believe it or not this is also providing a sense of moral support.

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Originally Posted by scottgem

i would try talking to a few lawyers. Given what you say, it appears that they are harassing you. And, if you win, you could be awarded court costs. So see if you can find an attorney who might take the case on that contingency.

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Thanks again. You are right, they have harassing and bullying down to a science. The hard part about dealing with these folks, is that they are long time residents. The mother is also a long time business woman, with money and stature in the community and surrounding areas. The daughter is the one, who came back to the area again, just prior to when her mom bought that property from my mom, in 2007. She thinks that her mom's name and money, is all she needs to get whatever she wants. Mix that with pure evilness and you just can't guess what she will do next. But to get legal help in our area is impossible. The few lawyers in the area, can't advise us, as they all have represented them in one way or another, or aren't someone you would want to talk to. Any suggestions of lawyers in the phoenix area (that can practice in la paz county) that are worth contacting would be greatly appreciated. If that is possible any way. Not asking any one to violate any policies through this sight. Either way, thanks again for all the suggestions, and believe it or not this is also providing a sense of moral support.