>Posts from another thread have been moved to this thread to keep information and advice on this subject in one place.<

Hi all,

Just wondering if anyone has any advice about dog sores that won't heal.

My situation is almost identical to that of https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/dogs/d...al-609972.html
Only difference my dog is 7 and was spayed about 5 years ago. There was some good info on this posting however there did not seem to be a solution or update posted from the person who asked the question.

My situation in Brief:
dog is 7
maltese/lhasa Apso
rescue dog from pound
very healthy (was)
6kg
5 weeks ago developed some (about 5) bumps just under the skin
3 weeks in and they have started to burst and open up
one or two are large and are on the inside of her back legs near her belly
one on her ribs (side)
no more new bumps/welts have appeared

WHAT HAS BEEN DONE
went to vet 5 weeks ago = vet examined and took syringe sample. Looks just like inflamed cells and white blood cells. Some discharge, but mostly just clear liquid

4 weeks ago= put onto one type of broad antibiotic and anti-inflammatory

3 weeks ago = brought in got biopsy of smallest one under the skin

2 weeks ago = all lab tests done nothings discovered. No cancerous. Done aerobic and anaerobic , still nothing. Vet prescribes another type of antibiotic

this week = still no results from Lab. Vet has not answers (fair enough, clearly a tricky problem and he is doing everything including ringing us to check up on dog condition.

For starters I am very impressed that you've taken all of these steps to find a cause and cure. I'm sure you've seen that a lot of people post here looking for miracles that don't involve Vets and Vet bills.

My only experience was about 10 years ago with a black Lab that developed cysts on a regular basis. "We" tried anything and everything, including broadbase antibiotics on a regular basis, to no avail. I took him to the Vet about every 3 weeks for evaluation and treatment. Some cysts were drained, some were left to dry out.

It was frustrating and, I'm sure, painful - he lived to be 12 and we never found a solution to the problem that started when he was about 3. He was, likewise, a rescue.

I really have no advice, I've never had to deal with anything like this, and I wouldn't even know what to tell you.

I'm hoping Lucky or Lady Same come along, both vet techs. Sadly, we don't have a vet on the site, and even if we did, I don't think a vet could really help you online. You've done everything you're supposed to do, sometimes there simply aren't solutions to our animals problems.

I'm hoping one of the other pet experts can at least give a recommendation. It may take a while, they all work and come her when they have some free time, so please check back often, and maybe we can find a solution to your issue.

In the meantime, give the pup a big hug from all of us, and keep doing what you're doing, which is being a great pet mom. :)

The thought (only because it isn't proven until the offending sutures are removed) is that a spay, the most common abdominal surgery), was done and the uterune stumps were tied off with a synthetic suture called "vetafil", a polyflexible filament suture with a synthetic coating on it. It comes either on a roll, or in a sterilized plastic container, from which lengths of it may be removed and used without further treatment. The bulk roll must be steam sterilized before use. Both types are then sterile, so neither causes a bacterial infection. But, after using this material in spay procedures, it was discovered that occasionally draining wounds would develop and not be resolved until the vetafil sutures had been removed. It was then recommended that sterile canisters of vetafil be steam sterilized before being buried within the body. No problem results from its use in closing external wounds. Something occurs in using steam on the material... what I had never heard. It is more like a foreign body abscess, in which the body recognizes a strange material and tries to remove it the only way it is able... digest it with white blood cells, which becomes pus as it accumulates. Identical to the reaction to an infection, but no germs. Any abscess tries to drain to the outside of the body, and while the problem starts at the suture point, the easiest way outside is through the abdominal wall. This is the usual site of the non-healing "sore".
This is no guarantee, but all else having failed maybe it is time to consider it?
Why use this suture if it causes problems? It is inexpensive, strong, ties knots securely, and causes no problems if properly treated before use. Absorbable material is considerably more expensive, except catgut (which is an unfortunate name... it isn't), but this loses strength fairly rapidly and may come loose easier... maybe resulting in an internal hemorrhage. There are remarkable suture materials available now, but more costly.

They did a culture, yes? Has it come back yet?

The only thing that comes to my mind would be cystic tumors with mast cells in them... but I would think a vet and/or diagnostic lab would figure that out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sariss

They did a culture, yes? Has it come back yet?

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Hi Sariss,

Cultures done. Aerobic and anerobic. Nothing found yet. Have been told that it can take about 3 weeks to grow a culture in the lab.

Thanks

Steven

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lucky098

The only thing that comes to my mind would be cystic tumors with mast cells in them... but I would think a vet and/or diagnostic lab would figure that out.

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Yes I think that is what the vet was saying, however there is know cure for these if that's what it is right? As it is not bacterial?
If it is immune system then the treatment is different.

I am aware that the situation can be made worse by the wrong medication i.e. if the immune system is attacking something in the body and you boost the immune system then it will attach it harder and create more damage.

Thanks for your rely.

S

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paleophlatus

The thought (only because it isn't proven until the offending sutures are removed) is that a spay, the most common abdominal surgery), was done and the uterune stumps were tied off with a synthetic suture called "vetafil", a polyflexible filament suture with a synthetic coating on it. It comes either on a roll, or in a sterilized plastic container, from which lengths of it may be removed and used without further treatment. The bulk roll must be steam sterilized before use. Both types are then sterile, so neither causes a bacterial infection. But, after using this material in spay procedures, it was discovered that occasionally draining wounds would develop and not be resolved until the vetafil sutures had been removed. It was then recommended that sterile canisters of vetafil be steam sterilized before being buried within the body. No problem results from its use in closing external wounds. Something occurs in using steam on the material...what I had never heard. It is more like a foreign body abscess, in which the body recognizes a strange material and tries to remove it the only way it is able...digest it with white blood cells, which becomes pus as it accumulates. Identical to the reaction to an infection, but no germs. Any abscess tries to drain to the outside of the body, and while the problem starts at the suture point, the easiest way outside is through the abdominal wall. This is the usual site of the non-healing "sore".
This is no guarantee, but all else having failed maybe it is time to consider it?
Why use this suture if it causes problems? It is inexpensive, strong, ties knots securely, and causes no problems if properly treated before use. Absorbable material is considerably more expensive, except catgut (which is an unfortunate name...it isn't), but this loses strength fairly rapidly and may come loose easier...maybe resulting in an internal hemorrhage. There are remarkable suture materials available now, but more costly.

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Thanks for the feedback paleophlatus.

Do you know if this problem could surface 6 years after the spay surgery?

She was a rescue dog (not saying that they don't care for every animal, however that may imply they spayed her and used the materials on hand - as there was no-one to actually foot the bill)..

Lumps and bumps can be tricky. If I understand you correctly there are multiple places?
I understand that you have done a lot to try and figure out what is going on, if biopsies are turning up nothing would you consider removal?
Any possibility you could post a picture.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StevenPowell

thanks for the feedback paleophlatus.

Do you know if this problem could surface 6 years after the spay surgery? she was a rescue dog (not saying that they dont care for every animal, however that may imply they spayed her and used the materials on hand - as there was no-one to actually foot the bill)..

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There are few absolutes in medicine, and that isn't one. Probably not, but could the animals immune system undergo a change of some sort during that time?
If these non-healing lesions are decided to be foreign body abscesses (sterile), and not infections, then just about any thing may trigger such a response. In a fracture, any piece of bone that loses its blood supply and fails to become part of the bone regeneration process and blend into the healing bone, can become an irritant and become a sterile abscess.
Another good example of a sterile abscess is the abscess that develops below a dog's eye and doesn't heal. It arises around the root of the 4th upper premolar tooth... why is a good question.

Thanks again for a knowledgeable reply. Wish us luck.
Going to specialist on Monday morning.
All I can say is "glad I got pet insurance!!" so is the dog

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LadySam

Lumps and bumps can be tricky. If I understand you correctly there are multiple places?
I understand that you have done a lot to try and figure out what is going on, if biopsies are turning up nothing would you consider removal?
Any possibility you could post a picture.

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Here are two pics I uploaded.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LadySam

Lumps and bumps can be tricky. If I understand you correctly there are multiple places?
I understand that you have done a lot to try and figure out what is going on, if biopsies are turning up nothing would you consider removal?
Any possibility you could post a picture.

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Pictures now posted thanks. Apologies in advance for anyone having dinner or breakfast!

I actually came back to see what your specialist said. I would hate to venture a guess, when it comes to skin issues there can be so many other key things involved, allergens, irritants, immune system the list goes on.
I will say the picture is not what I expected, they look very ulcerated and uncomfortable. I am curious as to what the derm specialist thinks they are and how to treat them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LadySam

I actually came back to see what your specialist said. I would hate to venture a guess, when it comes to skin issues there can be so many other key things involved, allergens, irritants, immune system the list goes on.
I will say the picture is not what I expected, they look very ulcerated and uncomfortable. I am curious as to what the derm specialist thinks they are and how to treat them.

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Hi LadySam,

Well we got some great help from Sydney Uni Vet Hospital. They now have a possible cause and course of action. After I got off the phone I tried to remember a number of details and then do a bit of googling. Here is what I believe they said it is: (however they will give me a full written report):

Cutaneous sterile pyogranuloma/granuloma syndrome in a dog

Sorry this link I posted is like double dutch to me. I do get the "english" bits of the medical jargon. Does seem like the exact case.

In short, for anyone else who experiences this:

1. Dog gets this sterile condition for some reason
2. It starts small and might hardly be noticed (primary infection/source unknown)
3. by the time you notice it dog has a secondary infection (as a result of the first condition).
4. When biopsy are tested and cultured in the lab they are able to grow bacteria, however lab works from the assertion that this was not the bacteria that caused the original problem (i.e. it is the secondary infection that they are growing)
5. So lab really can't tell what the primary or first infection was
6. So went to specialist and then Demotolgist specialist and they both formulated the combination of medicines and weekly checkups.
7. should start to see improvement in about 4 weeks

Hope this detail helps anyone out there who needs some ideas. Internet is great for information, however nothing replaces the knowledge of a vet or a specialist.
My gamble of going to a University vet seems to have paid off, as they would have a massive world wide database of cases, particularly the unusual ones.

I can't thank Sydney Uni Vets enough (Amanda and Beth) and also our local vet from Newtown Animal Hostpital (Bas - who did everything by the book and because he got biopsy and lab work done by time I got to specialist they had all the information needed to make a probable diagnosis). Both places showed a level of care, love and attention which was very much appreciated by two very concerned owners.

Thanks to everyone online for support and advice.

I'm so glad you have a diagnosis, and meds that will help. Thank you for keeping all of us posted, and letting us know the outcome. I hope you continue to post about your pups progress.

Thank you for coming back and keeping "us" informed and for the detailed post.

I learned something today!

This is nothing like what my dog had - thank goodness.

Good that your dog has you - !

You have quite a team helping you there, that's one lucky little dog.
There is nothing like having an answer and I'm glad you found yours.
Thanks for the update, interestingly just yesterday at work we had a strange lump that had returned on a surgery patient, this wasn't what she was there for, but while she was sedated the surgeon decided to remove the lump surgically, since the preceding treatment had not worked. The root of the problem wound up being a small tuft of hair beneath the subcutaneous tissue that was getting inflamed and angry.
Just goes to show, you never know.

Hi van you ease tell me what medication you used?? My dog had the same symptoms n the vets keep giving her antibiotics that arnt helping and she is developing more sores and lumps at quite a fast pace.