Hello:

I just had a conversation on the legal board with my friend, smoothy.. He's a Constitutional sort of right winger. He, like MOST right wingers, rail all the time about how liberals don't care about the Constitution..

Then he tells me the cops are ROTTEN to the core, and violate the Constitution REGULARLY.. Those aren't the words he used, but it's the message he sent. The CITIZEN should watch out for the cops. If laying down for them is an option, the citizen should take it.. He says NOTHING about their UNCONSTITUTIONAL behavior, except that's the way it IS.

Me?? I think it should be the other way around.. The cops should be afraid of the citizen. You?

excon

When did I tell you that?


I mentioned there are SOME cops that are rotten to the core... I grew up knowing one that Retired as a Lieutenant. THe stories I could tell that I knew or heard about... abecause it was well known. No I didn't grow up in Chicago or New York City either.

Came across a few other crooked ones over the years too some I didn't know at all... a couple I knew a little... but I also knew a few other very upstanding ones as well. One an ex- California cop... Heard about how they "Served Warrants" to motorcycle clubs in Cali... which ammounted to mumbling "police we got a warrant" in a low voice before kicking in the door and arresting everyone that pulls a weapon thinking it's a home invasion instead of the cops...

Yeah... he quit over that before I met him. Yeah we are all Harley riders...

Since you're speaking in broad generalities, let's leave out of this any illegal transgressions by individual cops and talk about general practices. We need to be careful to distinguish between what is constitutional versus what one would like to think is constitutional. Case in point - the "stop and frisk" policing tactic being used in NYC. Many would argue that randomly stopping people on the street - mostly minorities by the way - without probable cause and frisking them is an unreasonable violation of the 4th amendment. But that dioesn't mean they are "rotten to the core." The courts have ruled that the police can in fact do this - hence by definition it is constitutional (at least until it's overturned). And sure, cops are continually testing the edges of what is constitutional, and sometimes they go too far, but in general they get reigned back in pretty quickly.

Hello again,

I'm not talking about stop and frisk.. I'm talking about RETALIATION. It's my belief that cops retaliate if action is taken against them, or what they PERCEIVE is against them..

Over on the legal board, time and time again, people from small town America say they are AFRAID of their cops. Smoothy confirmed exactly why they should be..

I'm just asking whether this is OK?

excon

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It's my belief that cops retaliate if action is taken against them

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Sweeping generalization! All cops do this right?

Seemss to me common sense is common sense, don't prevoke a cop

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again,

I'm not talking about stop and frisk.. I'm talking about RETALIATION. It's my belief that cops retaliate if action is taken against them, or what they PERCEIVE is against them..

Over on the legal board, time and time again, people from small town America say they are AFRAID of their cops. Smoothy confirmed exactly why they should be..

I'm just asking whether this is ok?

excon

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You mean like tHe IRS and DOJ have done against Conservatives who work against Obama? Which I suspect was also happening under Prism. But that may or may not ever come out if it was.

Part of that RETALIATION... ammounts to suspicious behaviour that would get you on the List of likely suspects...

Works the same for cops as it does for the average person...

Act like someone that had something to hide... then you get suspected of trying to hide something.

It comes down to the "choose your batttles carefully" saying... its also called "flying under the radar".

Walk around handing out Flyers about Alien abductions are real... and talking about how you were abducted several times by spacemen from Alpha Centauri... then don't be surprised if you get to be suspected of being a few bricks shy of a load.

Perception is a powerful thing... you can use it to your benefit or against it just as easily.

Hello J:

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All cops do this right?

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Yes.

Let me ask you this, Miss prissy right winger. If YOU observe a cop VIOLATING a citizens rights, and another cop sees the same thing you do, and YOU complain, will the cop that OBSERVED the incident, stand by the you the CITIZEN, or his fellow cop? We ALL know the answer.

You may not call that retaliation. Ok, I'm not going to split hairs with you. In my view, the cop who simply OBSERVED the incident, but isn't going to throw his buddy under the bus, is just as corrupt as the bad cop no matter HOW good he is otherwise.

Excon

Hello again, smoothy:

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Walk around handing out Flyers about Alien abductions are real... and talking about how you were abducted several times by spacemen from Alpha Centauri... then don't be surprised if you get to be suspected of being a few bricks shy of a load.

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Constitutionally speaking, a citizen is FREE to DO those things WITHOUT being put on a list or WITHOUT police scrutiny.

You right wingers LIKE freedom as long as it CONFORMS to YOUR version of it. But, that ain't what our Constitution says. It says you can be as weird as you want, and STILL be left alone.

Excon

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All cops do this right?

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Probably not every single person but Youtube if chock full of police brutality or police overstepping their boundary videos.

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:
Constitutionally speaking, a citizen is FREE to DO those things WITHOUT being put on a list or WITHOUT police scrutiny.

You right wingers LIKE freedom as long as it CONFORMS to YOUR version of it. But, that ain't what our Constitution says. It says you can be as weird as you want, and STILL be left alone.

excon

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Where do you have a right to not be suspected of being a loony if you do that?

If you run around publicly talking about how sexy you find little children... do you have the right to not be suspected of being a pedophile?

But are you getting arrested for it, and getting convicted just because you said it? Big differnce between those.

Where there is smoke there is usually fire... if someone walks around your store pretending to hide items in their pocket, and you see them... do they have the right to not be suspected of committing shoplifting before they put the items on CraigsList?

For that matter... and proof there is no such right... talk about having an explosive device on an airplane you are riding on... and tell me you have the right to do it.. and not be physically restrained... arrested and convicted... because more than a few people have... you don't actually HAVE to have such a device or anything that even resembles one for the conviction.

Or the often used... "do you have the right to scream fire in a crowed movie theater?" The answer is no you don't. As has been ruled on by the courts.

Hello again, smoothy:

You're going off half cocked again... This is a simple issue. Try to focus.. The Constitution protects people FROM their government... It does NOT protect people from people.

So, let me see if I can disabuse you of your misconceptions... First off, you conflate handing out leaflets with talking about how sexy you find little kids. They're NOT the same thing.. They're not CLOSE. One is CRIMINAL, the other is not. The 4th Amendment says that WITHOUT probable cause, the government can't snoop. SAYING that you find little children sexy, IS probable cause. Handing out leaflets ISN'T.

Next. A private citizen is NOT prevented from suspecting his fellow citizen of ANYTHING.. The government IS.

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, smoothy:

You're going off half cocked again... This is a simple issue. Try to focus.. The Constitution protects people FROM their government... It does NOT protect people from people.

So, lemme see if I can disabuse you of your misconceptions... First off, you conflate handing out leaflets with talking about how sexy you find little kids. They're NOT the same thing.. They're not CLOSE. One is CRIMINAL, the other is not. The 4th Amendment says that WITHOUT probable cause, the government can't snoop. SAYING that you find little children sexy, IS probable cause. Handing out leaflets ISN'T.

Next. A private citizen is NOT prevented from suspecting his fellow citizen of ANYTHING.. The government IS.

excon

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Can you provide proof of exactly where that is codified into law? Or even where in the Bill of Rights or the Constitution that is spelled out.

And on that same note... are you saying Eric Holder.. and the head of the IRS... as well as Obama should be jailed for violating the rights of Americans for their campaign against conservatives for having the gaul to not worhip Obama?

Those all fall into the same category. And in fact... the abuses by this Administration by far exceede simply being suspected of something by the police... as they leap to actual retaliation and abuse of power. By BOTH the DOJ and the IRS.

And as yet nobody has even been arrested... or even fired... Yes the person they pretended to fire... had already put in notice they were going to be quitting a few weeks after it long before this even came to light...

SO the reality is nobodies been fired... OR arrested yet.

Hello again, smoothy:

Well, you can't say I didn't try.

excon

Many citizens/humans (including cops) disrespect other citizens/humans every day. Some of these episodes are trivial and some not so trivial (some illegal and some not). I would like to pursue all of them but it is not possible to realistically do so. I have done my share of letter writing and phone calling to register complaints (I have also gone a long way on numerous occasions to compliment good professional service-even from cops), or try to get justice, which in most cases has been a total waste of time (especially contacting elected reps). All the average person can do is try to pick the right battles unless he/she has unlimited resources and time.
Yes, the constitution is a talking point for the most part in the U.S. I think we are a nation of pretenders with lofty goals and mediocre outcomes.
We are presently giving up freedoms for security, which I think Ben Franklin said was a real big mistake. I think that he was right.
You can fight city hall--IF you have the bucks and the time. More power to those who can stand their ground.

The constitution is a huge talking point and it's a huge struggle to keep applying it to the reality of 360 million people who are free to do whatever they want to.

The lines of reason and common sense get blurred, because free people always push the limits. Too many don't care about YOUR freedoms, just THEIRS! Those are the ones to watch.