Hello

I am a fully qualified carpenter/builder from Ontario Canada. I have done a number of my own electrical projects on my past homes and I enjoy the challenge.


I was just surfing the site looking for some ideas on my situation and I was enjoying all the good advice that you well experienced folks were passing along to us that aren't as well experienced.

I thought I would put my problem out there to you folks to see if you have any suggestions as to my best plan of attack. I also thought you might find it interesting as it is a bit from the norm.

Well here goes nothing. More years ago than I care to remember (1986) I moved a factory built 1000 sq. ft. one story home to my country lot Dufferin County, Ontario, Canada.

Normally the homes have a basement but this one was set up on a crawl space. So there is insulation in the floor joists and the joists are covered with aspenite. The original FP 200 AMP panel is in the rear left corner of the house looking from the road and being a crawlspace home most of the circuits are run through the attic.

I built a 1000 sq. ft. Pressure treated basement on the lot and had the house moved on top with a crane as per usual. The basement includes an under the house single car garage. I also built a 325 sq. ft. addition foundation onto the left side of the house that is close to power panel side.

At this time the 1000 sq. ft. part of the house is functioning off the 200 AMP original panel. The addition is framed in but not wired. The basement is not wired as well. At this time I just have some temporary lighting and plugs in these areas.

The 200 Amp meter base is at the street side of the house about one third from the left corner. The meter is feed from via 200 Amp service wire from the transformer on the pole at the street. I installed the meter base and conduit under the floor slab that carries the appropriate wires from the meter to the rear right corner of the basement. The wires come back out of the slab inside the conduit still directly below the original 200 Amp panel that is on the main floor rear wall above. All the wires from the meter through to the original 200 AMP main panel are braided copper.

The wires from below the floor slab feed into a large FP 200 AMP disconnect and then through a 200 AMP Bell distribution box and then on to the original 200AMP panel that has it's own 200AMP main breaker in it. The 200AMP 40 space panel upstairs is getting full and I probably could still get the addition on it and maybe a bit more.

You may ask me why in the heck I did this and it's probably overkill. My reasons were as follows I wanted to be able to add a sub panel in the basement to do the basement, basement exterior lights, garage and possibly the addition (through the crawlspace). I didn't want to disturb the original 200 AMP panel and house wiring and wanted a means of disconnecting the main power so I can put in the future sub panel. And at that time I probably had too much money to spend (HA)

I still have to wire the basement, basement exterior lights, addition and garage.

The basement is going to have a bedroom, rec room, bath room, utility room and possibly a summer kitchen.

The garage may have some 20 amp plugs, lights and a 50 AMP welder's plug.

The existing house has baseboard heating and so will the addition and basement. We don't use the heaters much as the woodstove heats most of the 1000 sq. ft. and the basement is well insulated so at this time a few light bulbs keep it from getting below freezing in the winter time. The basement heaters might be used when the basement is completed.

My plans are to run 100 AMP wire out of the distribution box from the auxiliary connectors to a 125 AMP sub panel with a 100 AMP main breaker. From there I was going to complete the rest of the house wiring as mentioned above.

The installation as installed has a permit and it is approved. I still have to take out a permit for the sub panel and the new wiring.

My questions are as follows.

Does this plan sound feasible and is it the best approach. Should I run the welder breaker out of the 100 AMP sub panel to the garage welder plug? Or should I run the welder wire directly out of the left over connectors in the distribution box to 50 Amp disconnect in the garage the feed the welder from that? The garage is at the far right side of the house.

How should the grounding be done in the sub panel? Should it connect to the ground in distribution box? That ground is connected with the earth ground. The other white 14/2 wire running through the distribution box is just temporary and is feeding the well pump from the main panel until I install the new sub panel in the basement.

Is this system going to be overloaded with the addition of the sub panel, heaters, wiring, welder and maybe a small summer kitchen. The dryer, stove, hot water heater is upstairs on the original panel and there is no plans at this time in a second laundry in the basement.

Also I have read about some scary stories of the problems with the FPE Stab-lok panels and that is what I have as the original main 200 AMP panel. It has the breakers with the prongs not the ones that screw on. I haven't had any problems with the panel yet and the GFI breaker has snapped off when it was supposed to a few times.

Should I worry about this panel and change it out when I do the sub panel or should I let it go and just be concerned about the rest of the new work using some other brand.

I hope you enjoyed my dilemma and I look forward to any advice that you folks may have and be willing to offer. I am not an electrician but a fully qualified carpenter/home builder and am I am always eagar to listen to other people's advice and stories.

Thanks

Yours sincerely


:cool:

Believe it or not, after all the detail you provided there is still some important information missing. Provide a list of all major electric appliances, existing or proposed, such as in the summer kitchen,and the total wattage of electric heat, or list the wattage of each unit.

Also any air conditioning.

I can then perform the service sizing calculations as per the USA National Electric Code. The result may or may not be exactly the same as the Canadian code, but should be close.

Also, the tap box you show, with the lugs, is this box before or after the main Disconnect?

Hi TK

I have been very busy and haven't been able to answer your question until now.

Thank you for reply by the way!

OK the heaters existing are as follows,

Main 1000 sq ft. existing area baseboard heaters

Living 1500w
Dining 1000w
Front entry 500w
Kitchen 500w
Bath 500w
Bed1 1000w
Bed2 1000w
Laundry 1000w

New proposed areas (Addition)

Addition Bed 1500w
Addition entry 500w
ensuite 500w

Basement area to be completed

entry 500w
bath 500w
kitchen 500w
family 1000w
bed 1000w
laundry 750w

major appliances include

upper kitchen
1 cooktop
1 oven
1 microwave

laundry 1 washer and electric dryer (stackable)

1 wall air conditioner that is plugged into 15amp plug (hardly used)

downstairs summer kitchen will have smaller range

Garage- Possible future welder plug and some wall outlets

Tap Box - The box is after and above the main disconnect in the basement. I can pull the main disconnect and work on that box with no power to box. As I mentioned the existing 200Amp service panel is upstairs in the laundry directly above the tap box below the laundry room floor on the basement wall. The new intended service panel is planned to go beside the tap box fastened to the 4x8 pressure treated plywood backer board.

We are still using the woodstove and the baseboard heaters rarely go on. I plan to have a woodstove in the addition or a propane fireplace. So the heaters won't e on in there much. I guess things might be different if we sold the house with regards to the woodstove use.

Thanks very much

I look forward to your reply

I don't see the welder listed. Does the welder have a duty cycle? What kind of welder?


Just off the top--with the welder, you are @ 200A (As stated--off the top)

Sounds like we've heard the same stories about FP. All I can say about that is if it were my panel, it would be gone. Period. No questions asked. I may be wrong here, but if I remember correctly, they lost their UL listing here in the U.S. but they can still be sold in Canada? I think I remember something about that. I'm sure TK and others can clarify.

Off topic a bit, but that is one of the cleanest looking installations I have ever seen. You should be complimented on your attention to detail.

Hi

The welder is the same welder I use at my workshop/studio.

Lincoln Electric K1170 Includes: 225Amp
Rated CC AC Output Amps/Volts/Duty Cycle -- 225/25/20%

At the shop I have 200Amp service. The welder plug is feed from a 50amp breaker in the main panel and the wire is a 2 conductor wire of the proper gauge.

It seems to run fine down there. With respects to the possible welder at the house it would be set up the same way I imagine from the sub panel unless it would be better to run the wire from the tap box to a smaller sub panel in the garage? At any rate I only use the welder myself and like at the shop I tend to make sure nothing major is running while I am welding.

Thanks for the compliment Cobraguy. I take extra care in the work I do especially with the electrical. The main black wires feeding through the lugs in the tap box are continuous through the lugs. I just bared the wires. I just bared the appropriate area making sure I had enough to feed up to the original 200 Amp panel and down below to the main disconnect. It was cold in the basement when I did the main disconnect and those big wires just about wear your fingers out trying to shape. With regards to the FP panels I too have read a lot of horror stories about them in the states. It is funny though they are still used a lot up here. The one at the shop is a FP panel as well. Our own veteran electrical contractor uses them on all our 200-400amp custom homes. Some electricians up here are reluctant to use them as well. I have heard that the FP breakers up here are a bit different inside and don't have the same issues, but there are no definite answers on that floating around. Home depot up here sells FP, Siemens, Cutler-Hammer, Square-D. I am leaning towards the Siemens 100Amp surge pack because it included an Arc fault breaker and surge breaker in the package for a good price.

I guess my main question that I am trying to resolve is will the 100Amp sub panel setup work?

I have a few breaker spaces left in the original 200Amp panel that I can use for the addition.

I am trying to avoid at all cost of going to a 400Amp service because of the cost, time, and extra work at this point.

Thank you

I look forward to your thoughts and advice.
:rolleyes:

I come up with 82 amps of connected calculated load. Even if I missed something, I am sure you will have plenty of capacity.

To find the subpanel from the tap box, a Main disconnect for the sub will be needed no more than ten feet away.

Use 4 wire #2 aluminum cable for a 100 amp feeder from the Main to the sub, keep the neutral insulated at the panel, and a separate equipment ground bar for all grounds.

Tk,

Is that for the addition only?

If so, I'm sure that's right on money :)

Tk

Thanks for your input.

The 100amp panel I was planning on using has its own 100Amp main breaker. The panel
Will be right beside the tap box. Does this main breaker qualify for the "a Main disconnect for the sub will be needed no more than ten feet away." as you suggested?

The welder plug in the garage will be about 25-30ft from the tap box. Is it better to run the breaker for the welder plug out of the new sub panel as I did at the shop setup?

Sorry I am a little green on some of the electrical terms.


Washington1 mentioned "is that for the addition only"

What items make up the connected calculated load or more simply put,
Does the connected calculated load include some of the following new items going in?

Addition heaters
Basement heaters
Summer kitchen (with a split receptacle or two, fridge, small range)
Welder plug
New plugs and lights in the new areas to be wired

I forgot to mention that I will be adding a central vac unit in the basement.

Could you please clarify a couple of things for me?

What did you mean by keep the neutral insulated at the panel?

When you suggested a "and a separate equipment ground bar for all grounds."
Do you mean keep all ground wires connected to the proper ground bar inside the new sub panel or are you taking about the earth grounding of the panel with separate ground rods in the earth?

I guess what I'm not clear on here is how is the new panel itself grounded? Can it use the same ground as the other installed tap box, main dissconnect and 200 Amp service panel close by. (That is the green tapped up copper wires in the pictures which go directly out the back wall to 2 vertical rods I installed in the backfill hole when I put the basement in.)

I have some separate #3 copper wires left over here. Can that be used through conduit to the new subpanel? My electrical code book up here stated that 100amp requires

2-#3 R90XLPE copper (black, red or blue) for the hot
1-#3 R90XLPE copper (white) for the neutral
#6 (or larger) bare copper for service ground

Thanks again

As long as there is a main breaker no more than 10 feet away, the main in the panel will suffice.

I am not concerned about the welder, feed it from where ever is easier.

Keep the neutral separated is just like in the tap box. Note the neutral is on a lug that is insulated, and the equipment ground is bolted to the panel. Any subpanel needs to be connected the same fashion.

#3 copper is the minimum size for 100 amps. Also add a #8 copper from the tap box equipment ground to the equipment ground bar in the panel.

Since the panel is in the home, and not in a separate building, another ground rod just for the subpanel is not needed.

Hi TK

Thanks for your reply.

Ok I think that answers most of my questions and I am going to proceed with the work using your suggestions as my guidelines.

I have to look at the ground lug on the tap box. I can't remember if there was enough room to squeeze another wire into the terminal if not I think I might have a bigger lug kicking around here to swap out.

It is going to be so nice to go down stairs an flip a couple of light switches on and take down the light string :p

For yourself and all others out there offering help freely I do greatly appreciate it!

Thanks and have a great Christmas! :rolleyes:

Might as well get rid of that FP box while you're at it!

There is not an official recall, never was one, for FPE equipment.

May-June 1999: Federal Pacific Electric Co. Stab-lok® Update

The equipment made in Canada is made by Square D, and marketed as Federal Pioneer.

Residential Product Porfilio

FPE equipment is still alive and well in Canada.

Hello

TK

I read both those articles on the FP panels.

As I mentioned we use a lot of them up here in Canada and I haven't heard of any major issues.

It is possible as with any situation there was a bad lot of them years ago compounded by some bad installations or faulty appliances. (Re: 2-pole dryer short out horror story)

Cobraguy thanks for your opinion but I have the FP panels installed in three of my properties as well as my parent's house we built in 1980.

I was concerned too that's why I did a fair bit of research and reading.

After all said and done I am at the point right now that I feel comfortable with the FP panels I have installed at this point and I feel they are not among the problem batch.

I think we have had more cases of snakes and mice/rats shorting out panels by harboring inside than the FP breaker issue.

At one farmhouse Reno we did the panel nearly blew off the wall. After the light show was over we discovered that there was a rat's nest inside the service panel that continued outside of the panel into a closed off window well beside the panel. Apparently somebody over the years past left a hole at the side of the main panel uncovered after a sub panel wire was removed. The service/sub panels were all full and past renovators started throwing new circuits into already full breakers by inserting the new circuit wire into the already full breaker lug. I imagine they thought it was a good idea at the time. :confused: I guess the strangest part of the story was the fact the owner knew about the rat issue after they bought the farmhouse but was afraid to go near the nests for the 5 years they owned that house.

Needless to say I never hesitated to put on the gloves and mask and remove the 100amp fried rat mess. We yanked out the whole panel and sub panels and installed a new larger single service panel.

I guess what I'm tying to say is "If it's not broken, don't fix it."

Cheers

Hello tkrussell and all,

Finally getting to this panel as very busy still.

I am still a bit confused on the panel ground and neutral bonding.

My original FP yellow panel (picture included) has no visual tie between the panel ground and the neutral bar.

I remember when the inspector had a look at it and he removed the bond and I think he said we don't bond the neutral to the panel anymore.

Yet when I run a continuity test between the panel ground and the neutral bar I get a connection. I can't see the connection anywhere.

Now when I am hooking up the new grey Simmens panel (picture included) with 100 amp main breaker it has the neutral bonded to the panel.

My Ontario Hydro manual states that the bond should be removed and thrown away.

My problem is the surge protector breaker that came with the new panel states that it is only suitable for use in panel boards with grounded neutrals.

I would appreciate any help in the grounding/bonding and the connection of the two panels.

As I have indicated in earlier pictures and description the panel is going right beside the tap box and is going to use the same earth ground.

Thanks for viewing and any help forwarded

Keep one thing in mind, I am not an expert with Canadian electric code, only USA.

Keep one other thing in mind, the term "neutral" is slang for the proper term of "grounded" conductor.

Not having the "neutral" bonded" to comply with your local code is their choice for some reason. Makes sense if all are done that way easy to cite code .Here in USA we have situations that both methods are required for certain situations, and can get confusing for those laypeople as to when to do which method.

This does not mean the " to comply with your local code is their choice for some reason. Makes sense if all are done that way easy to cite code .Here in USA we have situations that both methods are required for certain situations, and can get confusing for those laypeople as to when to do which method.

This does not mean the " is not grounded.

I suspect the local code requires the neutral to be grounded at the meter, and I am sure the utility grounds the " is not grounded.

I suspect the local code requires the neutral to be grounded at the meter, and I am sure the utility grounds the " at the transformer. Both of these methods are allowed by the NEC here in the USA. Utilities always ground the neutral at the pole/transformer. This is easily confirmed on a pole system by looking for a bare #6 copper wire stapled to the pole and connecting to a ground rod at the base of the pole.

Underground systems are more difficult to see this ground rod as it is inside covered by the ground mounted transformer.

So, to summarize, since the " at the transformer. Both of these methods are allowed by the NEC here in the USA. Utilities always ground the neutral at the pole/transformer. This is easily confirmed on a pole system by looking for a bare #6 copper wire stapled to the pole and connecting to a ground rod at the base of the pole.

Underground systems are more difficult to see this ground rod as it is inside covered by the ground mounted transformer.

So, to summarize, since the " is actually the " is actually the " conductor, this is why you get continuity between the equipment ground and the neutral, and connecting the surge protector will not be a problem.

Thanks tkrussell

I am starting to get things in a better perspective.

You are right with regards to bonding of the neutral earlier down the line.

I have the ground and the neutral bonded in the main 200 amp disconnect shown in the posted picture earlier and in the picture I am sending now.

There is also as you stated a ground wire coming off the transformer pole across the road.

So the line of power goes as follows. Power pole (grounded) => meter base =>
200 amp disconnect switch (neutral bonded to ground) => distribution box/tap box (neutral isolated) => 200 amp main panel and 100 Amp (neutrals isolated).

The new Siemens panel does state that the bond strap can be removed if inspector requires.

So I should have known that the reason I have continuity between the neutral and the ground in the in the 200 Amp main breaker panel is due to bonding earlier in the power source.

So I imagine really both the 200Amp panel and the 100Amp panel I am adding are both sub panels after the main disconnect switch?

The whole thing is getting clearer now. The one thing that is not a 100% clear at this point is the theory behind bonding the neutral and ground earlier in the power source but not in the breaker panels. Is it to try to keep surges to ground out of the breaker panels and hopefully out of the house? What is the main reason for bonding the ground to neutral somewhere in the line?

So in conclusion I should wire the 100amp as follows?

100 Amp equipment ground => tap box equipment ground
100 Amp neutral => Tap box neutral lug
100 Amp line wires => Tap box Line lugs
Remove bond strap
Connect surge breaker white neutral tail wire as close to the neutral bar as stated.

With regards to the 100 Amp equipment ground wire, I am not sure if it will fit in the lug that is occupied in the Tap Box (pictured earlier in post). If I can get it in great but if not do you have any suggestions? Should I add a bigger lug? I have a few spare aluminum lugs taken from other panels that might go under the bolt that is holding the equipment ground lug in the tap box. That could be an issue mixing dissimilar metals as far as corrosion goes. Or I could tap it into the equipment box and attach it separately but I don't know if that method is as good as having it attached to the tap box equipment lug to insure it has a good connection with the earth ground coming into the tap box equipment lug? I will fit in the 200 Amp main disconnect equipment lug but I feel more comfortable keeping my distance from the hot lugs so close to the ground/neutral lug. It was OK when I worked there originally as the meter was out. The Tap box is dead after I pull the main switch. How does one safely replace those big 200 Amp fuses in the main 200 Amp disconnect if they ever blow? (Rubber gloves, Rubber boots, Rubber mat and make sure any big dogs aren't around that will jump on your back? Or do the service guys just jump in and do it quick with a big pair of insulated pliers and then take coffee break?)

Once again thanks for all your help

OK, first the neutral and ground question. A neutral can be considered as the return for a circuit, hot feeds a load, current flows through the load, and the load does the intended work and the current leaves and returns back to the source, panelboard.

This is a simplistic analogy, as I am sure someone will jump in and bring up the fact that AC current flows in both directions 120 times per second (60 cycles). So for simplicity, follow my explanation.

Even thou the neutral is grounded, it is still considered as a current carrying conductor, since it is the return for the circuit.

The equipment grounding conductor,AKA EGC, also AKA ground, under normal conditions carry no current back from a load. It only connects to the metal frame, container, or any metal parts in an appliance, to be available in the event of a ground fault, fancy word for short circuit. Thus grounding the appliance.

So if a short happens, the EGC is completely available to carry the fault current back as an redundant path of return to complete the circuit. While the EGC often is smaller than the circuit conductors, great pain is taken to keep the impedance (Z), AC resistance) as low as possible, as is the entire grounding system is treated.

Keeping the Z low allows the current to rise quickly and as high as possible to activate the tripping mechanism in a circuit breaker. Fuses are easy as the element is a metal that melts due to heat, and are sized just right to heat up when necessary. This is where "time curves" or "breaker curve tables" published by manufacturers come into play. Different devices open at different time spans and amounts of current. Commercial and industrial installations use adjustable breakers for several settings and attributes.

Now at, or before, the Main Disconnect is where the neutrals, equipment grounds and grounding electrode conductors all meet. Never anywhere on the load side of the main breaker. Remember, the MCB is the source, and the EGC is intended as a safety or redundant return for that breaker.

If the neutral and ground get connected out in a circuit, the EGC nows carries some, or all, of the neutral current. This can impose a current on the EGC and anything it touches. The breaker will not trip as the current will be limited by the load it serves first. Under normal conditions with a properly wired system, the effects are not easliy noticed, since the grounding conductor brings every thing to eart or ground potential.

The one defect that allows this condition to to known is when the EGC is broken or a loose connection, if conditions are right, someone will feel the current if they complete a circuit by coming between a unit with a good ground and something that is energized by a neutral/ground short and a bad ground connection. The voltage will be lower inversely proportional to the load, or the remaining voltage less the voltage drop across the load.

So I hope this snapshot helps explain why proper grounding is so important.

Onto other things, I would change the lug to a three port lug, or however many EGC need to be connected, and bolt it in the same location. But tapping the back of the enclosure and using a machine thread bolt will work also.

To replace the fuses, open the switch (turn it off), and most of the live parts are covered. But the wires feeding the top line side are still hot.
Best to use a pair of fuse pullers and reasonable care around those wires.

Under OSHA and NFPA 70E rules now we must now be using the proper protective gear,voltage rated gloves, face mask, fire rated clothing, etc. to be even in close contact with live parts.

And rightfully so, since I know too many dead and maimed brothers. So now I have a hard time just telling any layperson to do anything different than a pro.Shorting out a 200 amp meter sent me to the hospital with 3rd degree burns on one hand.

I think I got everything.

Quote:

---

This is a simplistic analogy, as I am sure someone will jump in and bring up the fact that AC current flows in both directions 120 times per second (60 cycles). So for simplicity, follow my explanation.

---

You read my mind! :D

Thank TK

That was a wonderful and thorough explanation on the grounding and neutrals.

I read it over a few times to let it all sink in.

So I imagine that the 200 Amp disconnect with the neutral bonded to earth ground would be the most susceptible candidate when the EGC is broken or has a loose connection, if those conditions were right as you explained, someone might feel the current if they complete the circuit by coming between the Main disconnect if it was energized by a neutral/ground short and a bad ground connection and something with a good ground.

I will try to get the ground wire from the 100 Amp panel to go into the existing lug if I can, otherwise I will hunt for a three port lug that doesn't extend to close to the neutral lug. I have some slack on the ground wires so I could also retap the ground lug screw and shift the lug up a bit.

I hear you loud and clear about safety around the live terminals.

I too had a relative who was a lineman who was killed by a line fix that when very bad.

Wearing all the protective gear, voltage rated gloves, face mask, fire rated clothing, etc. seems to make you more nervous and restricted at doing the job at hand but at least if something when wrong you may be protected enough to tell the story.

Funny that you mention (or not so funny I mean) your story about the 200 Amp meter accident. I guess those rubber gloves may have come handy that day.

Around twenty or so years ago I was putting a new 200 Amp service into my new shop that I was building. Everything was ready to go and I was very anxious to get the power going to have some juice for my power tools. The only thing left to do was the connection of the main wires from the 200 Amp panel and the load side of the meter base. The meter base was juiced and ready to go. It was a holiday weekend coming on and on and Ontario Hydro was very busy. They told me they couldn't make it out until the middle of the following week to pull the breaker at the hydro pole.
So in my over anxious zeal I undertook hooking up the panel wires will the meter base was still juiced.
To make matters worse there was still a backfill hole at the meter base around 4' feet deep. So I put scaffold plank across the hole and two more onto that one to make a ramp up to the meter. Then I put a rubber mat on the planks, dawned the heaviest rubber gloves I could find rapped a pile of electrical tape around the large T-Allen key that I borrowed from my Dad who is a machinist. I proceeded to carefully put the panel feed wires into the first meter base lug and tighten the big Allen key set screws on the lug. Getting that first one completed I said to myself “Hey, that went well, nothing to it” So I proceeded with the second lug. As I firmly put the 12” T-Allen key into the second lug I heard a loud trapping of feet and the planks I were standing on started to vibrate up and down. Before I knew it my friend's huge Alaskan Malamute dog came out of nowhere and jumping up on his hide legs with the force of his huge front paws pushed me forward towards the open meter base with the live pole wires. There I was on an angle with all my weight and the dog's weight on my shoulders forcing me against the T-Allen key that I still kept firmly in the set screw. I tried to get him to back off so I could pull the Allen key out. Instead he thought I was inviting him into a play session and he started gnawing at my ankles. After I final got him off I pushed off the set screw and out of harm's way. I was too high on adrenaline to finish tightening the set screw so I jumped on my bike and made my friend's dog run alongside until he was ready to keel over. Then I came back and finished tightening the second lug screw and close up the meter base, pop the meter in and flip the main breaker. Halleluiah no more generator and the dog was fast asleep.

Thanks again