We have a daughter in AR.. she is handling case herself.. wanted to ask other side for data etc. "Discovery".. She was told by someone "there is a form needed for discovery. I told her that all is needed is to send letter and what is asked for to the other side.. but again last night was told "need form".. but no one seems able to id such and not sure what her source for such is.. but it is holding up things... any ideas or letter format needed.. like to whom, what to ask for, and etc.. cannot find much on net to help her with.. but cannot find a "form" for such.. case is civil.. need asap..

Hello fw:

Have your daughter purchase a copy of the "Rules of Civil Procedure" for the particular court that she's in. She can probably buy one at her local college bookstore. The rules will tell your daughter exactly what the motion should look like, even down to the font and margins. It won't tell her what to say, though, and the court may not accept "forms" or letters.

Lawyers have to obey the "rules". Your daughter does too. They're not going to give her any leeway because she doesn't know the rules or isn't a lawyer.

Discovery is just the beginning of a long process. If she's lost now, she'll never win - really!

excon

HAve your daughter add this to all court documents;


COMES NOW, the Defendant, (our daughter name ) natural human beings with

The power of attorney-in-fact, your name :(hereafter Defendant) appearing in Propia

Persona and Sui Juris, demanding all their rights at all times, waiving none of

Their rights at any time for any reason. Defendant who is unschooled in the law

And ask that the court take Judicial Notice of the enunciation of principles as

Stated in “Haines v. Kerner, 404 U.S. 519,” wherein the court has directed that

Those who are unschooled in law making pleadings and/or complaints shall have

The court look to the substance of the pleadings rather than the form, and also

Hereby makes the attached memorandum, including the related documents

Attached herewith, in the above-referenced case. Furthermore, Defendant hereby

Requests the judge notify them of any sua sponte, rights or remedies they may

Overlook.
Furthermore, Defendant ask that the court take Judicial Notice that statements of

Counsel in Brief or in oral argument are not facts & before the court, only the

Parties statements made under oath, and the PARTIES pleadings, motions, etc

Carry any weight & counsel is not a & “Party to the suit.”


Discovery to an attorney is nothing more than a list of question and request for documents they are to produce. The outline is by the Civil rules procedure as, excon stated.

Hello again, fw:

mr. yet is right on again. That is exactly what she should write.

If I may elaborate on my earlier answer, I may have been a tad harsh in my judgment of the courts. The fact is, they are there to serve justice. However, justice and fairness aren't the same thing. Court isn't about fair. It's about winning. Pro se litigants (people without lawyers), can get justice, but it's not just going to be given to them. Most of them lose, because they weren't even smart enough to ask about a form like your daughter did. Judges don't like pro se litigants. It's like playing major league baseball, and having to play with a civilian. It's no fun. Baseball players probably wouldn't give you a break, and many judges wouldn't either.

My role here is to help the people who ask questions - not their opposition. I would love to see your daughter kick some attorney's butt. And, she can too. Sure, she may have a judge that gives here lots of space. But, I would be remiss in my duties if I were to advise her to be casual about it. Therefore, I think it's going to take learning that book.

excon

We are not involved in her case but have out own in this court.. and the judge is like to many southern judges.. good ole boys and part of a system that is so corrupted you have to see it to even come close to believing it...
We are talking judges that told one man, either get a lawyer or I will pull your bond and jail you" put such in writing and would not allow pro se.. another actually dismissed (allowed to with draw) a lawyer..and then the same judge allowed same lawyer to sign off on Order as lawyer of record.. when Motion filed to point out lawyer was NOT on the case.. in fact judge pulled him off.. "Motion dismissed".
Much worse has gone on and there seems no recourse as some of what has happened would stun the nation.. Rights are a thing of past in most rural areas.. and some urban.. and we are not talking little legal "nits" but major stuff.. and no one will touch it.. One guy found a major insurance scam that tracked way up the line, when he tried to report it was hammered into the ground.. a women authored and got signatures on a petiition pleading for protections from terrors she documented in petition.. sent it to all, even feds.. for her efforts her home torched, she was beaten, then jailed on faked charges and driven out.. Many others went through as bad.. and finally fled in terror.. This is not made up stuff.. all is heavily documented.. but there seems no way to get help.. we are under arson threats and never leave home unattended.. So this it the environment.. is it a good idea to send such a form to judges.. as in truth to upset them is to invite problems..
The judge in case with daughter (and another with us) simply says "Will only discuss case with pro se in my court" and allows lawyers to not stick to that, even if it violates AR rules. Daughter worried that if that form shown was submitted to the judge.. and guess we agree.. that this guy will simply blow up.. he is known for such... and as many find out. There is NO recourse.. We are not in AR.. but real familiar with how bad it can get and my friends.. were we blacks.. it mimics the day's of MS Burning and there is no help..

Yes in my working in various courts, some judges want even specific fonts on paper work submitted and will find legal errors in anything not submitted exactly they way they want it done.

Also if a person who is not an attorney is going up against an attorney they have almost no chance to win, the other side just knows what motions to file to continue the case, reset court dates and file motions they will not know how to answer and will not answer in proper time frames.

In court being right or innocent has nothing to do with it honestly, it is all about winning, In civil court we know that one side has to be wrong, but their attorney will do any and everything allowed to make their side win even if they know their client is wrong.

So good luck, I have worked for many years in law enforcement and also worked in the courts and I would not personally even think about representing myself in any court.

Hello again, fw:

It seems to me that you've got two choices: 1) lie down, don't fight, give up, leave things as they are, protect your family, and hope things get better. Or you can 2) fight.

None of the civil rights laws on the books today would be there if somebody didn't fight. Some even gave up their lives.

I get it. The rural courts are corrupt. Even if I were to believe it across the board, the rest of the courts aren't! They just aren't! And you have to get your case before them. You have to get the case out of the corrupt rural court. You have to know the rules well enough to know how to do that. If you don't know the rules, then they're going to win - just like always.

Look, my black friends. I've been in the slam IN THE SOUTH. I know the system. I know how to USE the system. Lawyers know how to USE the system. To those who don't know how to USE the system, it looks like it's corrupt. But, I'm telling you, it's NOT corrupt - if you understand it and know how to USE it.

excon

Your reply

Look, my black friends.

Along with that you make a lot of assumptions... and not much advise... stick to the subject matter you know..

HAve your daughter add this to all court documents;
My7 question on below is what happened to the Sup Ct ruling on the level of Pro Se... data and such. I only ask as the way most in Pro Se ended up treated is pretty bad.. we know as what went on in a local court was about worse I ever saw anyplace.. and I do not exaggerate one tiny bit.. nor nitpick.. and there was NO chance to appeal and what set that up is even worse.. So I wonder if we will be sticking pointy stick in judges eyes as all to many of these folks long ago forgot the court is there to serve us, not the other way around.. Was the below ever challenged and if not.. . why is it never appearing in court cases, as it would seem to be a very powerful Pro Se ruling.. and on books since 1972.. so a bit of help needed there. Looks really good to use.. but... I assure the judges we met so far are completely out of control.. and we can find no recourse.. and of course none of the "citizens advocates" will touch it.. too much politics involved. Any thought here a great help.

Noted you are bankruptcy type.. any real way to beat the "90 day prima faice of 11 usc 547" as that is going to tear up small businesses as no warning what you were paid is not going to have to go back.. a really bad law.. does COD type transaction protect? We are small business and just advised that a company we did business with 19 months ago has gone 11 and we were paid 30 days before they filed.. so on "list".. to return all funds..

I just really wonder why this was not being more widely published..

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mr.yet

HAve your daughter add this to all court documents;


COMES NOW, the Defendant, (our daughter name ) natural human beings with

the power of attorney-in-fact, your name :(hereafter Defendant) appearing in Propia

Persona and Sui Juris, demanding all their rights at all times, waiving none of

their rights at any time for any reason. Defendant who is unschooled in the law

and ask that the court take Judical Notice of the enunciation of principles as

Stated in “Haines v. Kerner, 404 U.S. 519,” wherein the court has directed that

those who are unschooled in law making pleadings and/or complaints shall have

the court look to the substance of the pleadings rather than the form, and also

hereby makes the attached memorandum, including the related documents

attached herewith, in the above-referenced case. Furthermore, Defendant hereby

requests the judge notify them of any sua sponte, rights or remedies they may

overlook.
Furthermore, Defendant ask that the court take Judicial Notice that statements of

counsel in Brief or in oral argument are not facts & before the court, only the

parties statements made under oath, and the PARTIES pleadings, motions, etc

carry any weight & counsel is not a & “Party to the suit.”


Dicovery to an attorney is nothing more than a list of question and request for documents they are to produce. The outline is by the Civil rules procedure as, excon stated.

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Mr Yet was wrong, as the protection for pro se is not as stated and the 1972 SC rule has been changed to apply only to some in prison and in no way NOW protects pro se. Several cases since then have established the fact that pro se must meet court rules on all. You really do not think this corrupted good ole boys lawyer-judges would let something like that stand.. we have got dozens of horror stories about how bad the legal systems and all the players have become across the nation.. and you remarks about "justice" are way off base. We were, for a while stunned at what we found.. but eventually simply recognized the systems are broken and no one will fix them. But NO protection as implied in the 72 decision and to add such a statement would just upset the judges.. Good try but your data base is outdated.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, fw:

mr. yet is right on again. That is exactly what she should write.

If I may elaborate on my earlier answer, I may have been a tad harsh in my judgment of the courts. The fact is, they are there to serve justice. However, justice and fairness aren't the same thing. Court isn't about fair. It's about winning. Pro se litigants (people without lawyers), can get justice, but it's not just going to be given to them. Most of them lose, because they weren't even smart enough to ask about a form like your daughter did. Judges don't like pro se litigants. It's like playing major league baseball, and having to play with a civilian. It's no fun. Baseball players probably wouldn't give you a break, and many judges wouldn't either.

My role here is to help the people who ask questions - not their opposition. I would love to see your daughter kick some attorney's butt. And, she can too. Sure, she may have a judge that gives here lots of space. But, I would be remiss in my duties if I were to advise her to be casual about it. Therefore, I think it's going to take learning that book.

excon

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NOTE this judge in AR has a rule that ANYONE that is Pro Sec MUST appear before the court for ANY matter.. even to ask for extension, present forms or ANY questions.. ONLY lawyers do NOT have to appear before the "court". This is same judge that told daughter-in-law when her former husband turned in his OWN son-`4 and daughter4 for "sexually abusing his girl friends 2 year old" THE FATHER turned them in, cops investigated, told that "all was made up not a shred of evidence, not one".. Judge then said.. when daughter asked kids be restricted to supervised visits, and two are being treated for emotional issues as they do NOT want weekend visits to father-girl friend.. forced to sleep on cold floors and little food, Judge said. Of father turning then in.. "no big deal, goes on all the time in these cases" etc.. Kids now in terror of "Visits" > She hired lawyer and getting nowhere . He told her (We sent her tape to record but she "forgets it") HER lawyer told her when she asked for court dates.. "Your ex has no money to pay his lawyer so we have to wait til he does.. further social service workers trying to help kids said and in writing.. 'They fear father and should not go there" but they claim they cannot send the reports to judge (court ordered counseling) until "hearing date".. which seems like cover up for child abuse. SO ANY good child protection outfit's that might help her? She is taking terrible abuse as are the kids.. but seems none will help and judge is over edge. The kids are suffering and little girl is in bad shape. ANY IDEAS as that court is dirty! NOTE was advised by someone in AR that if you file formal complaint on judge... to AR Supreme Ct whom handles them.. very poorly I hear.. the SC can and will charge you with contempt if you go public, even discuss with spouse while their lordships are 'handling it".. what a place..