We have an approx. 80' deep well and have just recently (within the last month) replaced the pressure tank. We suspect the failure of the last tank was our fault. We failed to heat the pump room on a particularly cold night and think the pressure valve froze open. This caused the pump to continue to run and probably blow out the bladder in the pressure tank. Solved and fixed that problem on my own. Yay me.

The new tank has worked fine for the past month or so however recently, within the last two days or so, we have stared to get air in the lines. At first, it was only a little air but now it is getting progressively worse. My wife says that what looked like 'rusty water' came into her bath last night. I suspected yet another broken pressure tank however the tank is holding pressure just fine. Also, there is no water that comes out of the pressure valve on top of the tank.

I suspect (actually, hope, since this is one of the cheaper options to repair) either a bad foot valve, a leaking pitless adapter or a hole in the pipe coming from the well pump to the pitless adapter.

The one thing that is causing me to doubt that though is there is no 'short cycling' of the well pump. The system holds pressure but when you run the water down until the pump kicks in there is a large amount of air that comes out. If there is any other information that is needed please, let me know. Thank you in advance.

I'm a little confuse by your post.
You said;

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think the pressure valve froze open

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By that I assume that you mean the pressure switch. For the pump to run continuously the switch would have had to frozen closed. That is with the electrical points of the switch closed causing the pump to run. Had they frozen open the pump would not run until thawed and pressure in the tank reduced to the cut on pressure.

Where is the switch located? Is it on the piping from the well or is located some where else with a small tube from the tank. What you describe is more likely if the switch is located remotely with the small tube than directly on the well piping. Located on the well pipe the entire pipe would have had to freeze.

Maybe the tank bladder just rupture due to time and age. You said you fix that. How did you fix it. Did you replace the tank.

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Also, there is no water that comes out of the pressure valve on top of the tank.

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That indicated that the replacement tank was a bladder tank. Was the old tank also a bladder tank.

Is there a check valve on the well piping. If there is no check valve on the well piping and the tank holds pressure then there is no leak in the well piping. The foot valve is doing its job and the piping remains under pressure. Therefore no air could enter the system. If there is a check valve at the tank and the foot valve is leaking then air and soil could conceivably be entering the well piping as water drains back down the well.

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looked like 'rusty water' came into her bath

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What kind of pipe do you have, iron, copper or PVC?

Any possibility that this well could have had a galvanized tank with an AAC (Automatic Air Control) valve in the past.

Thank you hkstroud. I'll try and be a bit more clear :)

By pressure valve I meant pressure switch. I'm only assuming this was the problem since the pressure tank, a bladder type, was only about a year old. The next day we had a lot of air in the lines. When I checked the pressure in the tank (using the little tire pressure valve on the top) there was zero pressure. So, we replaced the tank.

From what I can tell, there is no check valve on the system. If need be, I can take a picture of the area for you.

When our pressure tank failed last time, we called a well guy. He pulled the pump part of the way up to inspect the drop pipe. He did not find any leaks in it however it is an iron pipe. He recommended replacement sometime in the near future with PVC. Perhaps that future is now.. :)

If you need any other information please, let me know. Thank you for your time.

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When I checked the pressure in the tank (using the little tire pressure valve on the top) there was zero pressure.

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I assume that that refers to a year ago. If the bladder was ruptured and the tank was under pressure (pump has reached the cut off pressure) you should have gotten water out of the valve. If the bladder was ruptured and the pressure was zero, (you got neither air or water) then the pump must have been off and the pressure relieved (all the water in the tank had been used).
Let us assume that that was the situation.

Check the air valve. If you get air the bladder should be OK. If you get water, that indicates a ruptured bladder. Tank should be under pressure.
Turn off the pump, open a faucet. Let water run until it stops. Check the tank pressure. Pressure should be 2 pounds less than the cut on pressure of the pump switch.

Rust colored water could be from galvanized drop pipe.

If there is no check valve at the tank (or at the well head) the foot valve at the pump (which is really just a check valve) is doing its job and keeping water from draining back down the well. The water in the well piping to the house and the drop pipe is under the same pressure as the tank. Therefore no air can get in the pipe. So, if there is no check valve, the tank pressure gauge would show a loss of pressure if the foot valve were leaking or if there were a leak in either the drop pipe or the piping to the house.

Unfortunately the only way left for air to get in the system is for the pump to be pumping air. That means that the water level in the well has dropped. Air entering the system, then additional water being pumped could set up enough turbulence to break lose rust and mineral deposits in the iron drop pipe. Low water level could also bring soil into the system.

What you have described kind of sounds like the water level in the well has dropped. Hopefully the pump is not at the bottom of the well and can be lowered a few feet.

Thank you for the reply hkstroud.

The tank with zero pressure was an old tank. That one was replaced about a month ago. Our pressure switch is set to 20/40. When I installed the new tank I aired the bladder down to 18psi. This was tested while the tank was not connected to the system. Once everything was hooked up I kept a careful eye on all pressures through a few cycles. No problems were noticed. This problem has only just stated happening.

Yesterday I popped the cap off the well and took a peek. When the pump is not running the water level is just below the pitless adapter, which is about 5 feet down. When the pump turns on the water eventually drains down about 8 to 10 feet below that. Our well is approx. 80 feet deep so I don't think we are running dry.

It seems to only really put air out of the faucets when the pump first kicks on. It will spurt for a bit and then even out.

Again, thank you so much for taking the time to help out.

Edit: I added some pictures, no idea if they will help.

The pressure gauge and the pressure tank are brand new.

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It seems to only really put air out of the faucets when the pump first kicks on. It will spurt for a bit and then even out.

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That is indication air is in the piping, not in the tank. Don't know how it is getting in. Just for grins, seal the blow off piping to insure that air is not being sucked in as pressure drops.

Back off and show picture of all the piping.

Ok ,I put my finger over the end of the pressure relief valve while the pump stated up and held it there through the cycle. I didn't feel any change in pressure.

Here is a picture of pretty much the whole setup.

Stumped. Maybe jlisenbe will stop by.

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

Stumped. Maybe jlisenbe will stop by.

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Well, thanks for trying. If it were easy I probably would have fixed it myself :)

Going to give the well guy a call on Monday. Being that we have an iron downpipe it probably would not hurt to have that replaced with PVC. While we are at it, might as well inspect the pump and possibly replace the foot valve.

Lucky for us, we have a very good pump service to call.

From what you are describing, you're pulling air from somewhere. It would have to be between the pump (not one in the pic, so I am assuming it is in the well) and the pressure tank. A small leak in a pipe could allow a little air into the wellpipe between cycles. Of course, it would also be likely to leak a little water when the pump is on, but perhaps not enough to notice. Think about these items:

1. Is there a checkvalve between the tank and the wellhead? I did not see one in the pic.

2. The one thing I don't notice in the pic is a pump, so I am assuming the pump is in the well. If that's the case, then there is no footvalve, but there has to be a checkvalve somewhere, probably in the well just above the pump. That could be leaking. If that's the case, then your pressure would leak down to zero given enough time and with the power off. Couple that with a leak somewhere, and you get some air in the wellpipe. In fact, I'd turn off the power for a few hours and see if it holds pressure when no water is being used. I'd bet the pressure is going to drop. If it does, then you have a CV problem or a leaking pipe.

I am thinking old galvanized pipes are starting to open up in a place or two, or the pitless adapter is leaking.

A thought;

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When the pump is not running the water level is just below the pitless adapter

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That pretty much eliminates the well drop pipe.

Must be the pitless adapter.

Can you pull and reset it?

[QUOTE=jlisenbe;33624351. Is there a checkvalve between the tank and the wellhead? I did not see one in the pic.[/quote]
I have to have some kind of check valve *somewhere*, I just don't know where it is. I'm thinking the only place it could really be is in the well.

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Originally Posted by jlisenbe

2. The one thing I don't notice in the pic is a pump, so I am assuming the pump is in the well. If that's the case, then there is no footvalve, but there has to be a checkvalve somewhere, probably in the well just above the pump. That could be leaking. If that's the case, then your pressure would leak down to zero given enough time and with the power off. Couple that with a leak somewhere, and you get some air in the wellpipe. In fact, I'd turn off the power for a few hours and see if it holds pressure when no water is being used. I'd bet the pressure is going to drop. If it does, then you have a CV problem or a leaking pipe.

I am thinking old galvanized pipes are starting to open up in a place or two, or the pitless adapter is leaking.

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Yes, the pump is in the well. It's an approx. 80 foot well. I am also of the opinion that the check valve (I didn't know I don't have a foot valve) is in the well somewhere. We are calling the well guy tomorrow. I hope he will be able to come out in the near future.

When/if we get this thing fixed I'll post what the problem was. Thank you for your help.

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

Can you pull and reset it?

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Technically, I am capable of it however, the last thing I want to do is screw up and have the pump go crashing to the bottom of the well. I would much rather have the well guy do it that way if he breaks it he has to fix it :)

If it is the pitless adapter, from what I have read it is better to have it leak on the well side as opposed to outside the casing. Any truth to this?

Normally, yes. If it is leaking at the pitless adapter inside the well, you can usually replace the oring or seal on the pitless. If it is leaking on the outside of the well casing, you have to dig up the pitless or piping for repairs or replacement.

Be interesting to see what the pro says. Sorry we could not help you solve this on your own. Generally, problems in the well itself don't lend themselves to easy solutions. I would replace the galvanized wellpipe if it does turn out you have to pull the pump.

I agree jlisenbe. Hopefully Snarg keeps us updated. At the very least, as jl suggested, next time you pull that pump, update that old galv to plastic.

I'll keep you up to date. Even though we didn't come up with any conclusive fix, I still appreciate the help. Thank you very much.

So, the well guy came out today. $375 later and I now have a new PVC downpipe and a check valve.

There was no check valve on the system however, it seems there is some type of check valve built into the top of the pump. It is a Red Jacket pump, model number CN 12 BC. When he took a good look at it, they well guy said it looked like the spring had gone bad. I was told the only really good way to fix it was to either replace or disassemble the pump. He attached the new check valve to the top of the pump. Overall, the pump appeared to be in good shape. I took a picture of the data stamped on it and have included it so we have something shiny to look at :)

The things I learned from this experience:

1) The bottom of my well sits at 66'.
2) The pump sits at 40'.
3) The odds of me fixing this problem on my own were slim to none.

Thank you all for all of your help. Hope this helps someone else in the future.

http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/9386/pumpbc.jpg

Thanks for the update. Always appreciate that.