First: I live in a single-story rental unit in Las Vegas, NV built in 1962 with a newr-than-that electric water heater with a sticker that says it features the patented " Hydrojet TPS-Total Performance System " To save money, I keep my thermostat about 79 degrees in the summer and about 60 degrees in the winter.

Recent occurrences: We had a sudden cold snap, and I noticed that the water at the kitchen sink (the outlet closest to the water heater) seemed much hotter than usual--too hot. I made a mental note to check the setting at the tank.

I left overnight, and when I came back the water was only warm. I removed the upper access panel and saw that the red reset button had been tripped, so I reset it and the water heater immediately began to work again. The temperature control know in the upper access panel area was already set as low as it could go.

I opened the lower access panel and saw the lower temp control was set higher, so I turned it down to match the upper control, as low as it would go.
It does not seem to have had an effect on the water temperature at the kitchen sink.

In looking at the water heater, which is in a small closet, the back wall of which is a cinder block wall without additional interior insulation, I noticed a couple of things as follows:

Coming off the top brass release valve in the center of the unit was a short (3") horizontal pipe which was threaded into a galvanized elbow from which another 3" pipe extended vertically that was threaded into a flexible copper water line.
On each of the 3" pipes was a sticker that read "T-575 DIELECTRIC FITTING - NOT RECOMMENDED FOR HYDRONIC USE MAX SERVICE TEMP 200` F"

Along the front bottom seam of the unit I noticed an approximately 6" accumulation of rust-colored powdery matter-possibly calcium buildup. Note: Las Vegas has very 'hard' water.

My questions are as follows:

1. Should the above-information on the stickers be of concern, and/or are these pipes and elbow correct and safe given the application?

2. What might have caused the reset button to trip on this unit? Note: I have lived here over (2) years and have never had that happen, and there were no breaker switches tripped at the breaker panel. Is that occurrence an indication of possible pending failure of this unit?

3. Given the matter which has apparently seeped from the bottom seam, would it be a good idea to turn off the unit and connect a hose to the threaded tap at the bottom and drain and/or flush out the unit to try get rid of deposits which may shorten its life?

4. Given the proximity of the unit to an exterior uninsulated cinder block wall in winter, coupled with the relatively low (60`) temperature at which I keep my thermostat, would it help me save enough money to make sense to buy a insulating blanket for the unit, and might it help to extend the life of the unit?

Note: The water at the sink and shower, the farthest outlet from the water heater, does not get as hot as at the kitchen sink. I am attributing this to the water pipes running through uninsulated, or underinsulated interior and exterior walls.

Thank you for any and all help!

Bruce

Hi Bruce

Most likely this is a simple defective thermostat. I would change out the upper and the lower thermostats as they are super cheap and easy to replace (about $12.00 each).

To answer your questions specifically:

1) Dielectric nipples shoule be installed if this water heater is used only for heating domestic water (sounds like it is). Dielectric nipples should NOT be installed if this unit is to be used as a heating boiler, if you will. The galvanized pipe in the T&P relief valve should be replaced as this pipe will interact negatively with the brass valve and quickly close down to a 1/4" hole... not a good thing coming off a safety device!

2) As stated above, thermostats can be defective. This is a sign that the thermostat is defective and needs to be replaced because once the reset button starts to trip it usually continues to do so.

3) Flushing the unit should be done twice a year or so, but be prepared for the drain valve to leak (due to sediment getting stuck under the washer), so have a boiler drain cap handy to cap off the drain valve when/if it leaks... ;) To power flush the unit, simply connect a hose and open the drain valve (keep water flow on) for a few minutes.

4) No, insulating blankets are useless with the highly insulated tanks they sell for decades now! Instead, insulate the first 10-15 feet of hot water piping coming out of the tank and insulate the T&P valve, but do NOT insulate the T&P valve so it can't operate properly, OK?

Finally, consider installing a battery-powered water alarm and setting it on the floor next to the heater so you will get some kind of warning when the unit does start to leak. If you have the unit anywhere near a finished space you may want to investigate the newer auto. Shutoffs for water heaters... protects against leaks 7/24/365!

I agree that the hot water heat loss can probably be attributed to the pipes running in cinder block walls!

Back to you...

Mark

Hello Mark!

Thanks for your detailed responses! I need to clarify a couple of things:

Re your above answer #1: Yes this unit is only used for hot water, not heating. The center 'T & P' valve is brass and is screwed directly into the water heater unit itself. When you say replace the galvanized T-575 pipe I take it to mean replace it with brass 3" long threaded connectors (nipples?) and elbow joint. I hope you will confirm that for me. Also, while I don't know what 'T & P' stands for, (uh, Temperature & Pressure?) I do recognize that that valve is triggered by pressure build-up, and is designed to keep the water heater from turning into a bomb. However, I don't know what causes that pressure build-up in the first place. Is it related to the thermostat(s)? In other words, if the reset button 'trips,' wouldn't that protect me? Just curious about that, in case I can let the thermostat replacement go but replace the T-575s, for example. I would also like to know for general knowledge and self-preservation. Also, why would somebody use T-575's for this application in the first place? Ignorance? All they had handy? Low probability of pressure ever building up enough to open the valve? Knew but didn't care? Thought it would be a good way to blow me up? These things would also, it seems to me, be good to know, especially since I have lived in this rental unit for 25 months and the reset button/thermostat is just now starting to go. Also, I presume the thermostats are replaced through the upper/lower access panels--any info you have on that, like info I will need when going to the local home improvement store, will be appreciated. Management here is severely underfunded and apathetic to the point of criminality.

Re your above answer #3: When you refer to the 'drain valve', I'm assuming you mean the brass 'outdoor' faucet device typical to that to which you would connect your garden hose. When you say, "Be prepared for the boiler drain cap to leak due to sediment getting under the washer, so have a drain cap handy when/if it leaks.. " I am not clear about that--I am picturing this process as connecting a garden hose to the threaded "faucet" jutting out from the bottom vertical face of the unit/boiler, then turning the handle of the faucet to open it, flushing the unit, then closing, the faucet, etc.. It sounds, to me, like you are saying that after that is completed the faucet may leak/drip even though it is turned off. That I understand. I do not understand, however, what you mean by the 'washer'. Is that a washer internal to the faucet, or between the faucet and the unit? I am not aware of an internal washer in a faucet like that, and if the leak is at the joint between the faucet and the unit, I don't see how capping the faucet will prevent the leak. I suppose that is a small point, and also for my general knowledge--the bottom line is to have a faucet cap handy, that much I get.

Also re the flushing process, thanks for telling me to leave the water supply valve open for the power flush--my other question, just to confirm, is, should I turn off the electric power to the unit, and, if so, should I do so at the breaker panel? Finally, how long should I continue the power flush? Until the water runs clear? Until the water runs cold? Clear AND cold?

Thanks again for your responses!

Russet

Hi Russet

Misunderstood a bit, but a picture (if needed) would help... ;) From your second post I think I understand... let's see:

The T575 are dielectric nipples (see image below). These are supposed to be used for the application at hand, so you are fine there.

Anything galvanized (the T575 nipples are NOT a concern) should not be attached to the T&P valve (correct, T&P means temperature and pressure relief valve). Galvanized connecting to brass creates an electrolytic effect that causes deposits and can clog the line... not good on a safety valve. If galvanized piping is not attached to the T&P valve you are all set here!

Now, thermostats have a first line safety device... the tripping of the reset button if temperatures exceed safety standard. If that device fails, then temperature can increase and this in return increases pressure and the T&P valve is the next and final safety device before the water heater explodes. This is why the manufacturer recommends that people test this device (T&P valve yearly... read label on the T&P valve). Unfortunately, people rarely test these, and it is kind of for good reason 'cause as soon as you test the T&P valve it probably won't reset and will drip.. *UGH! Glad to discuss more here if you want.

Yes, thermostats are replaced through the upper and lower access panels. Here, shut off the power at the electrical panel (breaker) and then confirm power is shut off using an electrical tester (more than one person has mislabeled a breaker), and then draw out the wiring as it is connected to each thermostat, and then remove the thermostats and take them to home depot to get exact replacement thermostats (universal ones will work, just make sure they match up screw terminal for screw terminal). Install the thermostats and connect wires accordingly.

The drain valve is what I was referring to and yes, there is a washer inside this valve. I am NOT referring to the tapping between the tank and the drain, but the washer inside the drain valve itself. Sometimes sediment from flushing gets caught in under the washer and the drain leaks after the power flush. To save time/hassle, pick up a boiler drain cap when picking up the thermostats just in case, OK?

Flush until the water runs clear... a minute or two should do it. Repeat every 6 months or so.

More questions? Let me know, OK?

Mark

Dear MASS,

Thanks for the picture above! It does not appear to be what I have, and I also don't know why you keep calling it a 'Nipple.' What I have is a simple 3" Long piece of pipe which has the appearance of that above in your picture, but mine is threaded on each end, with no break in the middle, unlike that shown in your above picture This is the pipe with the T-575 labels stuck to it with the wording as per my first posted question. The first 3" T-575 piece is threaded into the brass T&P valve. The other threaded end is screwed into a galvanized elbow ('L' shaped galvanized female part that is threaded inside at each end of the 'L'. Extending vertically from the 'L' connection is a second 3" long piece of T-575 pipe, threaded on both ends. It is screwed into the female threaded end of a flexible copper plumbing line, the other end of which is soldered onto the 'T' connection of the copper plumbing pipe running up the wall. O.K., I am understanding that T-575 is NOT a problem. However, now I will ask, what about the "elbow" or what appears to be a common L-shaped connector? It seems that, both in terms of composition and the bend in this connector, that electrolytic action might take place here-no?

Re the flushing procedure, I still need to know about whether I should turn off the power supply to the water heater before flushing.
Finally, any info about testing the T & P would be appreciated. Thanks!

You don't know why I call it a nipple because you aren't a plumber... that's what they call any threaded pipe that is 5 feet or under and threaded on both ends... a threaded nipple. If you come upon any terms or issues that are confusing simply Google them for an explanation and it will make this easier for you.

In terms of flushing the heater, you can shut the power off at the breaker if you want, however, not necessary as the tank remains filled with water at all times and you are only flushing the heater for a minute or two.

Finally, as I presented in my last post, the T&P valve and whether you should open the lever and test the valve is recommended by the manufacturer (read label on T&P valve). It is a good idea to test these periodically, but as I said, you need to be aware that when/if you do test these that they could not reseal and that would mean that you need to purchase and install anew one. This is not necessarily a big deal as T&P valves are inexpensive ($10.00), but this would be a nuisance for sure.

The galvanized elbow seems to be neutralized by the dielectric nipple... the whole purpose of these nipples, so it sounds like you are all set!

Good luck!

Mark

Thank you for your patience Mark--I probably sounded a little irritated, which I was. I looked at the 'nipples' again, and while they DO have a slightly indented line in the middle, it does not look like a separation the way yours does, with that rise in the center (to me). Regardless, you are right-I am all set! My reset button went off for a second time (yesterday), I know because I was using my microwave and the breaker that controls that went off--however, that is not the same breaker that controls the water heater! I called the neglectful property manager and relayed your information, and she has "put in a work order," which means that the thermostats may get replaced by the end of the year. In the meantime, I am shutting off the power to the water heater at the breaker panel.

I realize that you are a plumber and not an electrician, but any comments you might have about my 20 amp microwave-controlling breaker being tripped when the separate, dual-40 amp (80 amps total) water-heater breaker is not being tripped, but the reset button on the water heater itself IS would be appreciated. Also, what do you think about turning the water heater off except before I need it? As hot as the water has been coming out of the kitchen sink, I am concerned that the water heater will go out entirely. In Las Vegas, if you don't know, landlord-tenant regulations severely favor the landlord, so I have to fend for myself on this one. Thanks again, I know this must be getting a bit tiresome for you.

Russet

Mass,

I just received a visit from the maintenance man, who in addition to telling me that the water temperature adjustment of 'Hot" at the "1 o'clock" position, is the hottest temperature setting, even though it precedes the 'A' 'B' and 'C' positions and the final 'Very Hot' at the "11 o'clock" position, and that he was turning it DOWN by putting it "in the middle, so it's not too hot and not too cold," also said that the problem is not the thermostats (even though when he opened the access panel the reset button had been tripped again), but that he problem was that the heating elements needed to be replaced! Please advise me of your thoughts on this, too. Thanks.

Usually, when elements go bad you have little/less hot water... not too much hot water, but it is always hard to question a maintenance guy that is there when I'm not!

The "hot" setting is typically 120F and that is appropriate for your home, so unclear why he moved the dial. In my opinion, the thermostats sound bad, but if he replaces the elements and the problem goes away then you will be all set! If the issue remains, then the maintenance man eats crow and replaces the thermostats as we have suggested. If he is smart, he'll replace the thermostats at the same time as he replaces the elements! Again, from here it is always hard to be certain without tests and test equipment. Can you tell me what tests he performed or what tools he used to confirm the elements were bad?

In terms of the previous post on the microwave, I don't see any relationship between the micro. And the water heater so you'd need to post over in the electrical forum and see what tests they might have you perform to determine the issues at hand... could be a grounding issue, could be a bad breaker, etc... ;)

Basically, I see no real issue with turning the water heater on/off in the short term, but, if this is going to go on for the long haul AND you want to be a stinker you could push maintenance a bit by telling them that you've been told that bacteria (legionella) can invade a tank that gets below 120F on a regular basis!

Click on this link for more info.:

Is it Safe To Turn Down Your Water Heater Temperature? : TreeHugger

I would press maintenance to get going on this as messing with the breaker too many times isn't exactly great for your breaker either, OK?

Mark

Mass,

YES--I knew your monkey-wrenched heart was in the right place--but you are too diplomatic--what's the matter, -- are you afraid of being subpoenaed as an 'expert witness'? Don't worry, I can fully indemnify you! (HAR-deHar-Har). Regarding the 'thermos vs the eles' arguments, I 'talked myself down' with the same argument, after I made myself get over his condescending explanation of how 'very hot' is 'less hot' than 'hot'! (PIcture that if you can--I think I need (BOTH) MY thermostats replaced!).. I said, "Self (I said), if this guy is as st*&pid as I KNOW he is, worst case scenario is you get a water heater with new elements!--what do you care?" It is his lack of ability to reason, and/or communicate in English, combined with his condescending manner and proven incompetence, all capped by his totally unwarranted ARROGANCE that makes me want to size him up for a fitting in my water heater! I kid you not--this PIN-HEAD negotiating the setting of the temperature setting LOWER by TURNING IT UP--PLEASE!? They (The "Maintenance" man and the "Property Manager") would be entirely like Tweedle-Dee and Tweedle-Dum, except they are both Ghetto Haters who would, either one of them 'Cap' me just for (and I QUOTE) "Running off at the Mouth," And the manager is such a junkie that she will tell you TO YOUR FACE that she will do something, and as soon as you leave her office, it will be FORGOTTEN (BY HER). THEN, when you remind her about it, she will tell you about how she puts tenants "Who bug me" at "The bottom of the list!" I thought she was professional when she first showed me the property---but after I moved in, I realized she was JUST STONED, and I don't mean on POT!