Aloha Friends,

I am renovating our newly purchased home. We have a meter main with the shutoff in our detached garage that runs underground with 2-0 aluminum to feed our 100 amp panel. We are bringing in the following electrical load:

•[20 x 5 = 100 amps] five A/C's all 110 volt (five AFCI protected 20 amp circuits)
•[50 amps] 220 volt stove circuit
•[20 amps] 110 volt refrigerator circuit
•[20 amps] 110 volt dishwasher circuit
•[20 amps] 110 volt disposal circuit
•[30 amps] 220 volt dryer circuit
•[20 amps] 110 volt washer circuit
•[15 x 2 = 30 amps] whirlpool tub (two 110 volt GFCI protected circuits)
•[60 x 2 = 120 amps] two 220 volt tank less water heaters drawing 60 amps each (three showers, three sinks, dishwasher, whirlpool tub and washer machine)
•[20 x 2 = 40 amps] two 110 volts GFCI protected 20 amp circuits for each of the two bathrooms
• [20 x 3 = 60 amps] Three 110 volt GFCI protected circuits for the kitchen counter and Island
•[20 amps] one 110 volt AFCI protected circuit for three bedrooms
•[20 amps] 110 volt circuit for the office
•[20 amps] 110 volt living/dining room circuit
•[20 amps] 110 volt lighting circuit
•[15 amps] 110 volt burglar/smoke alarm system
•[20 amps] 220 volt outdoor circuit
•[20 amps] 110 volt outdoor circuit
•[20 amps] 110 volts garage/sidewalk lights circuit

In addition, I want to add a 60 amp breaker and install a subpanel back in my garage. I need one 220 volt 30 amp outlet for a future welder. Two 110 volt 20 amp circuits for saws and power tools and one dedicated 110 volt 15 amp circuit for my air compressor.

All together, that’s OVER 700 AMPS! :eek: Now I know that not every circuit will be running all at one time, nor will each circuit be drawing full power, most likely only during startup will the appliances pull their rated load.

We're upgrading from 100 to 200 amp indoor panel and changing our meter main w/shutoff to 200 amps instead of 100. I want to save as much as possible as copper is very expensive. So I believe that calls for 4-0, 4-0, 4-0, 2-0 SER Aluminum to cover the 80 foot span from the meter main to my indoor panel. I’ll have to abandon the underground conduit as it is only 1 ¼” and holds three 2-0 aluminum wires (2 hots and one neutral) and one ground for the old panel.

My first option, should I keep the existing wires and just upgrade to 150 amps as that is the max that 2-0 aluminun can go with? To me, that’s just too little. Running two showers will crank both tank less heaters which draw near the 60 amp load each initially, meaning that I’ll be chomping up 120amps just running two showers. In a family of five, that will most likely occur daily in the morning and in the evenings. With 30 amps left, my stove will trip the main if we cook while the kids shower. Just not appealing so I think this is a waste of an idea…but I’m willing to listen if anyone can convince me that leaving everything and just upgrading to 150 from 100 amps is the way to go. That’ll be the most quick, easiest way though.

My choice is to upgrade to 200 amps and give us some room to spare. To keep it affordable, I’m looking at getting 80 feet of 4-0, 4-0, 4-0, 2-0 SER Aluminum cable. I’d have to come out the top of the main breaker shutoff, run the SER just under my garage joists, through the closet wall, out the other side and straight across the yard running along the hollow tile wall staying up at about eight feet high, making a slow 90 bend up the eave and into the attic space, making another slow 90 bend and run straight to my utility closet and one more slow 90 bend down and straight into the top of my indoor panel. This seems to be pretty straight forward but here’s some of my concerns.

1. The old 100 amp panel had four wires and the neutral and ground bars were not bonded. Two hots, one neutral and one ground. All running back to the main shutoff where the neutral and ground are bonded. But the odd thing is that the panel also included a ground that ran from the indoor panel ground bar to the nearest water line and grounded on the copper water line. If I’m not mistaken, is this not an incorrect application of the ground, or do I need to make sure that I include this second ground on the new panel?

2. Since the new panel is 200 amps, will the 4-0 SER cable be able to enter the panel through the top and fit in the hot and neutral main lugs? Although the lugs are pretty big, the 4-0 aluminum looks to be very large, will they fit in the main lugs on the indoor panel? What size do I need to punch out the top of the indoor panel so the SER fits nicely?

3. The new meter main with shutoff is also concerning me with connection issues. Won’t the 4-0 SER have to be connected to the double pole 200 amp breaker? Those connections are even smaller then the main lugs on the indoor panel, how will they fit the SER cable in those small connections? Will I need to use a large JB to hold my splices and step down to 2-0 copper lines just above the main shutoff and will the 2-0 fit into the breaker? If I do, will I need to use 3” conduit to enclose the copper wires? Will I need to do that at both the meter main and the indoor panel? I have seen a Siemens type 200 amp main breaker that looks like a light switch, is very large at about two inches wide by six inches long. That breaker had two huge lugs on both ends, very different than the normal single and double pole breakers normally used. That looked like it would easily fit.

4. Would it be best to get a main shutoff that had some extra breakers so I could just run my garage circuits straight from the main instead of running circuits back out from the indoor panel to a subpanel?

5. If I need to step down in wire size to 2-0 copper, can I run them in the utility wall or do they need to be enclosed in 3” conduit right from the JB?

6. is there such a thing as 2-0 copper SER cable with all four wires similar to the aluminum SER cable or are the copper all separate?

7. Is my only other option to run three 2-0 copper wires from my shutoff to my indoor panel? What is the minimum size of the ground wire if I’m running 2-0 hots and 2-0 neutral?

8. If I'm to splice from the 4-0 alu to 2-0 cu, what do I use for that splice? :confused:
Please help!

thanks again friends,

alohabob

Whew, lots of good questions, I will added my answer in bold right after each question

I am renovating our newly purchased home. We have a meter main with the shutoff in our detached garage that runs underground with 2-0 aluminum to feed our 100 amp panel. We are bringing in the following electrical load:

[20 x 5 = 100 amps] five A/C's all 110 volt (five AFCI protected 20 amp circuits)
[50 amps] 220 volt stove circuit
[20 amps] 110 volt refrigerator circuit
[20 amps] 110 volt dishwasher circuit
[20 amps] 110 volt disposal circuit
[30 amps] 220 volt dryer circuit
[20 amps] 110 volt washer circuit
[15 x 2 = 30 amps] whirlpool tub (two 110 volt GFCI protected circuits)

[60 x 2 = 120 amps] two 220 volt tank less water heaters drawing 60 amps each (three showers, three sinks, dishwasher, whirlpool tub and washer machine)

Need to know actual load in amps or watts of each heater not size of circuit rating

[20 x 2 = 40 amps] two 110 volts GFCI protected 20 amp circuits for each of the two bathrooms
[20 x 3 = 60 amps] Three 110 volt GFCI protected circuits for the kitchen counter and Island
[20 amps] one 110 volt AFCI protected circuit for three bedrooms
[20 amps] 110 volt circuit for the office
[20 amps] 110 volt living/dining room circuit
[20 amps] 110 volt lighting circuit
[15 amps] 110 volt burglar/smoke alarm system
[20 amps] 220 volt outdoor circuit
[20 amps] 110 volt outdoor circuit
[20 amps] 110 volts garage/sidewalk lights circuit

In addition, I want to add a 60 amp breaker and install a subpanel back in my garage. I need one 220 volt 30 amp outlet for a future welder. Two 110 volt 20 amp circuits for saws and power tools and one dedicated 110 volt 15 amp circuit for my air compressor.

Need to know size of load in watts, amps, or horsepower of each motor.

All together, that’s OVER 700 AMPS! :eek: Now I know that not every circuit will be running all at one time, nor will each circuit be drawing full power, most likely only during startup will the appliances pull their rated load.

Adding the ratings of each breaker is never done, and completely irrelevant.

I need to know square foot size of livable space in home, not including basement that cannot be finished, garages, attic, crawlspace, to complete the connected load calculations


We're upgrading from 100 to 200 amp indoor panel and changing our meter main w/shutoff to 200 amps instead of 100. I want to save as much as possible as copper is very expensive. So I believe that calls for 4-0, 4-0, 4-0, 2-0 SER Aluminum to cover the 80 foot span from the meter main to my indoor panel.
Correct

I’ll have to abandon the underground conduit as it is only 1 ¼” and holds three 2-0 aluminum wires (2 hots and one neutral) and one ground for the old panel.
Correct, will need two #4/0 for hots and one #2/0 for neutral from utility transformer to meter/disconnect if you want 200 amps

My first option, should I keep the existing wires and just upgrade to 150 amps as that is the max that 2-0 aluminun can go with? To me, that’s just too little. Running two showers will crank both tank less heaters which draw near the 60 amp load each initially, meaning that I’ll be chomping up 120amps just running two showers. In a family of five, that will most likely occur daily in the morning and in the evenings. With 30 amps left, my stove will trip the main if we cook while the kids shower. Just not appealing so I think this is a waste of an idea…but I’m willing to listen if anyone can convince me that leaving everything and just upgrading to 150 from 100 amps is the way to go. That’ll be the most quick, easiest way though.

I need to perform the load calcs before I advice as to size of service needed, I do not guess at this.

My choice is to upgrade to 200 amps and give us some room to spare. To keep it affordable, I’m looking at getting 80 feet of 4-0, 4-0, 4-0, 2-0 SER Aluminum cable. I’d have to come out the top of the main breaker shutoff, run the SER just under my garage joists, through the closet wall, out the other side and straight across the yard running along the hollow tile wall staying up at about eight feet high, making a slow 90 bend up the eave and into the attic space, making another slow 90 bend and run straight to my utility closet and one more slow 90 bend down and straight into the top of my indoor panel. This seems to be pretty straight forward but here’s some of my concerns.

The path of cable sounds fine, the bending radius for SER cable is to be not less than five times the diameter of the cable, which may help with the bends but this stuff is tough to bend.

1. The old 100 amp panel had four wires and the neutral and ground bars were not bonded. Two hots, one neutral and one ground. All running back to the main shutoff where the neutral and ground are bonded.

This is exactly the way it should be

But the odd thing is that the panel also included a ground that ran from the indoor panel ground bar to the nearest water line and grounded on the copper water line. If I’m not mistaken, is this not an incorrect application of the ground, or do I need to make sure that I include this second ground on the new panel?

This connection to the water is not a "grounding electrode conductor" intended to ground the neutral, but a "bonding conductor" intended to ground a metal piping system, the water lines,and is exactly correct.

2. Since the new panel is 200 amps, will the 4-0 SER cable be able to enter the panel through the top and fit in the hot and neutral main lugs? Although the lugs are pretty big, the 4-0 aluminum looks to be very large, will they fit in the main lugs on the indoor panel? What size do I need to punch out the top of the indoor panel so the SER fits nicely?

A 200 amp panel will have lugs ready for #4/0, most lugs can handle larger that #4/0 wire. The SER #4/0 cable fits best in a 2 inch squeeze connector, which will use a 2 inch knockout, most panels have prepunched 2 inch knockouts.

3. The new meter main with shutoff is also concerning me with connection issues. Won’t the 4-0 SER have to be connected to the double pole 200 amp breaker? Those connections are even smaller then the main lugs on the indoor panel, how will they fit the SER cable in those small connections? Will I need to use a large JB to hold my splices and step down to 2-0 copper lines just above the main shutoff and will the 2-0 fit into the breaker? If I do, will I need to use 3” conduit to enclose the copper wires? Will I need to do that at both the meter main and the indoor panel? I have seen a Siemens type 200 amp main breaker that looks like a light switch, is very large at about two inches wide by six inches long. That breaker had two huge lugs on both ends, very different than the normal single and double pole breakers normally used. That looked like it would easily fit.

Any 200 amp breaker will have lugs large enough for 200 amp wire, certainly #4/0, check the data sheet for your equipment for wire range on the lugs a,d I am sure you will see I am correct. Never had an issue with wire size, only if I run much larger wire to reduce voltage drop.

4. Would it be best to get a main shutoff that had some extra breakers so I could just run my garage circuits straight from the main instead of running circuits back out from the indoor panel to a subpanel?

Now depending on the cable run to the garage, this may be a good idea, this is up to you.

5. If I need to step down in wire size to 2-0 copper, can I run them in the utility wall or do they need to be enclosed in 3” conduit right from the JB?

You cannot run individual wires without conductor in a cable assembly such as SER cable.

6. is there such a thing as 2-0 copper SER cable with all four wires similar to the aluminum SER cable or are the copper all separate?

I think so, but very rare or difficult to find, may be special order,most SER used is Aluminum.

7. Is my only other option to run three 2-0 copper wires from my shutoff to my indoor panel? What is the minimum size of the ground wire if I’m running 2-0 hots and 2-0 neutral?

Again, just to be clear in conduit or cable, and the equipment ground for a 200 amp feeder can be either #6 cu or # 4 Al.

8. If I'm to splice from the 4-0 alu to 2-0 cu, what do I use for that splice? :confused:

I don't see where this would be necessary, however if you do, then the mechanical connector must be CU/AL rated, A split bolt will have separating wedge to keep the Al away from the Cu wire, and while I am at it, ANY and ALL aluminum connections must have an ant-oxidant compound applied.


Hope this helps. If you like,there is a link directly to the NEC 2005 edition found in my Sticky Note at the top of this electrical forum.

Pick through these answers and get back with any others.

[20 amps x 5] five A/C's
[50 amps] 220 volt stove circuit
[20 amps] refrigerator circuit
[20 amps] volt dishwasher circuit
[20 amps] microwave hood
[20 amps] disposal circuit
[30 amps] dryer circuit
[20 amps] washer circuit
[15 amps] whirlpool tub motor
[15 amps] whirlpool tub heater
[60 amps] tank less water heater
[60 amps] tank less water heater
[20 amps] bathroom circuit
[20 amps] bathroom circuit
[20 amps x 3] Three circuits for kitchen counter and Island
[20 amps] one 110 volt AFCI protected circuit for three bedrooms
[20 amps] circuit for the office
[20 amps] living/dining room circuit
[20 amps] lighting circuit
[15 amps] burglar/smoke alarm system
[20 amps] outdoor circuit
[20 amps] outdoor circuit
[20 amps] garage/sidewalk lights circuit

In addition, I want to add a 60 amp breaker and install a subpanel back in my garage for the following shop tools:

[15 amps] table saw
[15 amps] compressor
[15 amps] band saw
[15 amps] drill stand
[15 amps] router table
[15 amps] jointer table
[15 amps] planer
[20 amps] vacuum system
[30 amps] 150amp mig welder 220 volts w/30 amp breaker


Need to know size of load in watts, amps, or horsepower of each motor.



I need to know square foot size of livable space in home, not including basement that cannot be finished, garages, attic, crawlspace, to complete the connected load calculations

Living space is 1200 sq. ft.




but I'm willing to listen if anyone can convince me that leaving everything and just upgrading to 150 from 100 amps is the way to go. That'll be the most quick, easiest way though.

I need to perform the load calcs before I advice as to size of service needed, I do not guess at this.


Is it all right to hide the 4-0 alu SER cable in 3” conduit to hide it? I have a stretch from my garage to my house that's about 20' feet wide and I'm wondering if it'll look better to hide it in conduit.

Your giving me a great list of circuit breakers, however I need the actual load of the tankless water heaters, they do not draw 60 amps that is the circuit size.If your not sure I can find something on the net that will require a 60 amp circuit and use that for a load. Every thing else is plain vanilla, these water heaters are the wildcard.

I will be back with the calcs.

The SER in 3 inch is OK, as long as this 20 feet is straight, SER does not bend easily, and certainly will not pull through conduit even through the slightest bend.

Assuming:
12 amps per air cond, typical size of a 120 volt AC
48 amps per water heater, max allowed amps for a 60 amp circuit

And assume you are located in Hawaii, only because of your name, I need to assume both all AC and both heaters can be operating all at the same time, you will need 125 amps of full capacity just for these appliances.

For the basic home, using the allowed Optional calculation of the first 10KW at 100% and the remaining at 40% results in 65 amps needed for a total of 190 amps, not including the workshop, which does not need to be included if this is a one man or hobby type shop, where only one toll will be used at once, so not worried about the shop load.

So, at face value, the smallest service rating can be 200 amps. Unless you can give me actual loads in amps or watts of:

Each AC unit, which must be calculated at 100%
Water heaters, which must be calculated at 100%

Are you positive these tanks water heaters are the way to go? I understand their benefit, but seems they can be power hogs.


These calcs are done as per Article 220 and the Examples in Appendix D of the NEC 2005 edition, found here:

NFPA 70: National Electrical Code®

First off, thank you very much as you’ve been a great help and a lifesaver. I really am grateful for your help.

Quote:

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The path of cable sounds fine, the bending radius for SER cable is to be not less than five times the diameter of the cable, which may help with the bends but this stuff is tough to bend.

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The cable is 1 ½” diameter. So 5 x 1 ½” = 7.5”. Does that mean that the beginning of the bend and the end of the bend needs to be over 7.5” long? So all I need to do is make a string 7.5” long, bend the cable and make sure the string does not reach into the straight run on either end? Or are we talking about a radius of 7.5” which would make the string 15” long?

http://mxheadquarters.com/Gallery/im...rical plan.jpg

Our home is a duplex with a tile wall running down the middle of the two units separating each into single family homes. The wall runs from the garage, all the way to the back of the property so there is no way of going next door except through the neighbours garage. My idea to pull the 4-0 SER for this run is to cut my task in half. By laying the cable in a very large circle in the yard, I can have one person pushing the cable up and into the eaves and attic space, one person receiving it where it enters who will then make the bend with a second person helping and pulling in enough to reach the indoor panel in the utility closet. A bend will be made so that the SER can drop straight into the panel. Once that is accomplished, we will start with the other end of the SER cable and send it through the garage wall, along the top of the wall and make that last bend to drop straight into the main panel. After playing with some 4-0 SER cable to get comfortable with it, I feel we should be able to do this, but is there anything I need to be careful about?

First off, what is the requirement to bring the SER out the top of the main disconnect? It will be under the garage roof, but the garage is not enclosed so I’m thinking it needs to be made weathertight. I measured the 4-0 SER cable and the diameter came out to just under 1 ½”. I found some steel 1 ¼” emt compression connection that fits around the 4-0 SER very tight, I’m thinking the compression connections are oversized a little as the diameter of the cable is 1 ½” yet it fits very snug. The 1 ½” compression connection is not tight, but I could use some rubber insulation wrap to make it tight right where the compression ring should be. After that’s done, I could use some weatherproofing caulk to seal it right around to be safe. Or do I need to use 3” conduit straight up and out of the main and just below the garage joists throw on a service entrance? Can you please tell me how you would handle that? I'm hoping I can keep everything neat, sleek, and as inconspicuous as possible.

What would you use going through ¾” garage wood wall? Would you just make a hole big enough to squeeze the 4-0 SER through the wall or would you throw a squeeze connector or something else wherever you go through a wall?

What is the smallest size conduit that's allowed over the 4-0 SER cable? The run across the wall I want to hide behind conduit, but I’m wondering if I can purchase either 1 ½” or 2” conduit and run it across my table saw to knock off 1/3 of the pipe then just slide it over the SER cable. That way I can dress it after it’s all done and not have to pull it through any conduit at all. It’ll actually be a cover and not sealed in the pipe. I'm thinking if the pipe is open in the back, then probably I'm free of any conduit restrictions. I was told by one fella that 200 amp lines always run in 3” pipe, which is really not inconspicuous at all, so I’m trying to stay as small as possible. Do they make large flexible conduit pipe that i can cut open too?

How would you handle the bend up the wall and into the attic space? Would you put some kind of a squeeze connector there or would you put something closer to a service entrance?

The last bend would run straight down and into the indoor panel. Since the panel is inset on the studs and drywall, I should be able to run straight into the panel and into the two hot lugs and the neutral lug. As you mentioned earlier, at the indoor panel I should definitely use a 2” squeeze connector right?

Also, I first thought that I should get a main with some extra circuits to give me circuits outside, but wouldn’t it be possible to use my abandoned wires to run a 60 amp circuit back outside and use my old 100 amp panel so that the 2-0 wires easily fit in the lugs and then run my outdoor circuits from the 100 amp panel (of course I realize that my maximum draw allowed would be 60 amps). Would that just require a JB on top of the abandoned conduit to hold my splices and then use 2-0 SER to run to the 100 amp panel? That would only cost me the amount of the 2-0 alu SER as I have the 100 amp panel and breakers already. In fact, my 100 amp panel is an indoor panel so I don’t think that would work. If i don't use my abandoned line and conduit pipe, what is the requirements about leaving them? Do i need to remove the pipe or can i just leave it and cap it?

I guess the best bet is a main disconnect with extra circuits so that I can run my 4-0 SER into my indoor panel and run my outdoor circuits straight from the outdoor panel. Is there any restrictions on this? Since the 200 amp is already running into my home, the extra circuits I use outside would actually make the panel rated more than 200 amps. I would add three 20 amp circuits, one 15 amp circuit, and one double pole 30 amp circuit. Like you said, my outside draw is for a one man shop where only one or two circuits would be used at a time. Is this correct usage of the main or is this not good? I don’t want to go through this just to have the inspector come out and gong me.

I was thinking of using this Siemens meter main with 8 spaces. Is there a better brand than another? Also, would it be better to have the meter on the left or the right or is that a non-issue? I’ve seen other brands with different layouts like this square D.

http://mxheadquarters.com/Gallery/im...ns 8 space.jpg

http://mxheadquarters.com/Gallery/im...n_square D.jpg

Does it matter what type of meter mount i get? Is the meter the responsibility of the utility company? Will they put a meter on no matter what I install?

Lastly, would the ground that was made for my original meter main still be good enough for a 200 amp panel or would I need to redo my ground? My garage is blacktop with the ground coming out of the blacktop running up the tile wall and into the main, so I have no idea what was done to accomplish the ground. It is plain copper wire, although I am not certain what the size is.

Please advise in all these things.

Mahalo nui loa,:)

alohabobs

Just to let you know,I have seen your latest question and I will not be able to respond in detail until this afternoon, and I am on the East Coast, and I have no idea what time zone you are in, so be patient I will get you some answers later.

Oh by the way nice sketch!

Don't sweat bending the SER too much, this stuff will kick your butt. Your plan to pull is exactly correct pull from the center out in both directions. Just be careful that the sheathing does not catch on any nails or screws. Use protective nail plates where the cable goes through framing members to keep them from being driven into the cable later on.

We use a minimum of 2 inch drill bit or hole saw to give the cable plenty of room You want no friction when pulling through wood holes. Seal around the cable with fire caulk when done pulling and strapping.

2" is probably the smallest conduit I would use for sleeving the cable.

Any penetration into the top of NEMA 3R Raintite enclosure must be water tight. We never come out the top of these with SER cable. We come out the back or the side at the bottom, because there is no connector that will seal at the top.

Looks like the path from the garage to the attic is outdoors. SER can be outdoors, the challenge will be to seal the roof of the garage, perhaps a short piece of conduit as a sleeve form the a attic through to the garage, and the around the conduit can be sealed with roofing tar.

Correct on the entry into the top of the panel.

Is the 100 amp panel you have going outdoors and is it rated NEMA 3R Raintite? If so then fine with that plan. Oh I see you now realizer it is indoor rated, so scrap that plan. The underground wires can be cut low and under the ground and just left.

I don't see a main disconnect in the meter you show, if you can find a meter with a 200 amp main disconnect builtin, and room for branch circuits, that is fine, should have no problem. Remember , you do not add the pole ratings of branch breakers. The 200 amp service is sized to handle the entire load of the home.

The utility will furnish the meter you furnish,install and maintain the meter socket. Before you go buying any meter socket, check with the utility what types of sockets they allow. If you don't check and use the wrong one they will not set a meter and provide power.

The grounding electrode conductor,(the ground) must be no smaller that #4 copper, and no aluminum allowed for this wire. Can be bare or insulated and must connect to the water line if it is utility and metal, or you must use at least one ground rod. This wire will connect to the neutral line and load at the main disconnect neutral, and here is where the equipment ground from the SER cable will also connect.

I am positive the ground wire for your existing service is not the correct size.

Hope this helps, if I missed something let me know.

Quote:

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The grounding electrode conductor,(the ground) must
be no smaller that #4 copper, and no aluminum allowed for this wire. Can be bare or insulated and must connect to the water line if it is utility and metal, or you must use at least one ground rod. This wire will connect to the neutral line and load at the main disconnect neutral, and here is where the equipment ground from the SER cable will also connect.

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OK, so I must use at least a #4 copper wire for my ground, but what does that mean? Do I excavate the blacktop and look where the old ground is connected and remove the old bare copper ground wire and just connect the new #4 ground wire where the old ground was connected and run that back up? Or do I need to excavate the old grounding device (ground rod?) and install a new larger or longer one? What is the requirements? If I need to put in a ground rod, what size do I need and how do I go about that?

I know that my water shutoff is in my front yard; from the meter to my shut off valve my water line copper but from my valve to about 2 feet is 1" PVC spliced in. So there's a break in the copper line that comes from the meter, then PVC at my shutoff, and turns back to copper and that is what comes up and out of my cement foundation in the utility closet. I'm not sure if that changes anything as far as the grounding requirements.

As far as exiting the main with the SER cable, do I come out the right side of the panel just at the bottom where it already has knockouts ready, punch out a 2” hole and make a left turn and go up? Or do I come out of the very bottom of the panel and make a 'U' turn and go straight up the wall?

For the panel's 2” knockout, do I use a 2” SER watertight connector? Do I use a 2” hub connector at the knockout or just use that concentric circle to tie in the 2” SER connector? If I use the 2” hub would that mean that I must drill holes to screw the hub connector on to the panel? As soon as I clear the connector, can I stay free-air with the SER cable or should I be in a conduit through the bend and up the wall? Can you suggest the best way for this?

I am not clear where the SER bare ground alu would be connected. Would it be under the same lug as the SER neutral alu wire so that I'll be connected two wires under one lug? Sounds wrong. Please see the attachement.

http://mxheadquarters.com/Gallery/im...onnections.jpg

I've asked a lot of questions and I really apologize. I just want to get a very clear picture so that we are safe and sound and so that we can afford what would normally cost what was quoted me as $3000 to have this done. We'll be getting the meter main inspected, but our electrician friend is allowing us to do most of the work since we do not have the funds to hire them outright. I have a link to photos of the meter main I'll probably use.

Gallery :: Siemens Meter Main

OK, so I must use at least a #4 copper wire for my ground, but what does that mean? Do I excavate the blacktop and look where the old ground is connected and remove the old bare copper ground wire and just connect the new #4 ground wire where the old ground was connected and run that back up? Or do I need to excavate the old grounding device (ground rod?) and install a new larger or longer one? What is the requirements? If I need to put in a ground rod, what size do I need and how do I go about that?

You need to run from the main disconnect a #4 wire to a ground rod, if you can get to the existing one, then fine, if not drive a new 8 foot x 1/2" copper cladded ground rod. You must check with local code to see if two rods are required.

I know that my water shutoff is in my front yard; from the meter to my shut off valve my water line copper but from my valve to about 2 feet is 1" PVC spliced in. So there's a break in the copper line that comes from the meter, then PVC at my shutoff, and turns back to copper and that is what comes up and out of my cement foundation in the utility closet. I’m not sure if that changes anything as far as the grounding requirements.

If you have access, in your home, to a metal city water line, right at where the metal line enters the home, then attach this is will be your first or primary grounding electrode,AND you must connect to a ground rod also. If you don't have a metal utility water line coming into your home , then only one or more rods is needed. Really need to check with local code to see what is typical in your area. Because of the PVC sounds like city water is not used as a grounding electrode, plus you say you already use a have an existing ground rod, so sounds like rods are used in your area.

As far as exiting the main with the SER cable, do I come out the right side of the panel just at the bottom where it already has knockouts ready, punch out a 2” hole and make a left turn and go up? Or do I come out of the very bottom of the panel and make a ‘U’ turn and go straight up the wall?

Probably out the side, would look better, and easier.

For the panel’s 2” knockout, do I use a 2” SER watertight connector? Do I use a 2” hub connector at the knockout or just use that concentric circle to tie in the 2” SER connector? If I use the 2” hub would that mean that I must drill holes to screw the hub connector on to the panel? As soon as I clear the connector, can I stay free-air with the SER cable or should I be in a conduit through the bend and up the wall? Can you suggest the best way for this?

Hubs are only used fro the top, and if the enclosure is pre punched and drilled for a hub. If yous does have this prepunched hole, then use the top, a hub is easy method of using the top and to keep it water tight.AND if you use a top hub you then need a water tight SER connector. If you use a bottom or side(near bottom) knockout only a two screw squeeze connector is needed for the SER, Bottom and side bottom entries do not need a water tight connector. I need to see what you mean by "free air or conduit" to advise. Perhaps are there other installations similar to yours in the area to look at and get installation ideas?

I am not clear where the SER bare ground alu would be connected. Would it be under the same lug as the SER neutral alu wire so that I'll be connected two wires under one lug? Sounds wrong. Please see the attachement.

OK is see what I believe will be the the Main Disconnect, and this will also have branch circuits, which is fine. Correct it is wrong to install two wires directly into one lug. So I need to be clear here, ONLY IF THIS IS THE MAIN DISCONNECT as I believe it is:
The Neutral bar I see to the right call it the Main Neutral Bar
Each of the wires I will mention will need it's own lug.

All of these wires must be connected together at the Main Neutral Bar:
One neutral from Utility line, which the lug is probably over in the meter side, since I see a bar going from the main Neutral Bar bolted to the cabinet and running to ht left under the breakers.
One Insulated Neutral from SER feed to panel, to the lug you point to.
One Bare Equipment ground from SER cable feeding panel
One # 4 COPPER wire from city water, if applicable, to the smaller lug you point to.
One #4 COPPER wire from ground rod, any other rods needed must be connected in series with the #4 or each to have it's own #4 from the Main Neutral bar. Can go to the lug you point to, or there are two large ones at the top


http://mxheadquarters.com/Gallery/im...onnections.jpg

I’ve asked a lot of questions and I really apologize. I just want to get a very clear picture so that we are safe and sound and so that we can afford what would normally cost what was quoted me as $3000 to have this done. We’ll be getting the meter main inspected, but our electrician friend is allowing us to do most of the work since we do not have the funds to hire them outright. I have a link to photos of the meter main I'll probably use.

Don't apologize for the questions, this is the purpose of this forum. I do enjoy this, and you happen to have the benefit of a real live electrician that has done many services, understands the national code inside and out, has hands on knowledge of real equipment and wiring methods that are typical and customary, and hopefully has the capability to explain in so many words how to do something that does takes years to learn.

Since you have an electrician who is "allowing you to do this work" and this will be permitted and inspected, does that mean he has applied for the permit? If he has the permit in his name, he is ultimately legally responsible for this complete installation, and should be advising you of materials to use and methods of installation.

If you will have the permit in your name because of a home owners permit, then all responsibility is on you, which seems to be the circumstance. You ask some very good questions in so far as I see the detail of what you need are asking. I just hope that I am explaining this sufficiently enough for you to accept the complete responsibility.

I am very glad to hear this will be inspected, no matter who is responsible, there are many details that need to be done correctly, I feel I have answered your questions to make you understand, however, I am not sure what you have not asked. Seems thou you have asked the right questions about the important details, I just hope there is not something you are not aware of and is missing.

Does sound as if this entire new service can be installed all the while you still have power using the existing service and without disturbing the existing service, This allows for the time install the new service, have it all inspected and tweaked if necessary all at time's leisure, and once it is installed complete and correct, then cut over utility power from the old to the new.
Trying to replace an old service with new, and having to cutover power all in one day is very difficult esp. with complex installations such as yours, which is definitely not a typical installation.
See what you can do with this info, and let me know if something is missing.

Ok, seems like were getting a very good handle on things now. But a few more things are not comfortable yet.

The 8 foot ground rod, how the heck does one go about driving a rod down that deep? All the work up to this point has seemed to be workable, but this ground rod is worrying me, because we are low on cash flow and the reason we're doing almost all the work. Driving a copper rod 8 feet down sounds like I would need a special setup to accomplish that. Do I dig a hole down place the rod in it and back fill? Or is it required to be driven from the start? Can you clear up this process for me please?

Also, the wire path, can you verify that this should be correct. I'm staying away from a hard 90 degree bend with @SER

http://mxheadquarters.com/Gallery1/images/wire path.jpg

http://mxheadquarters.com/Gallery1/images/legend.jpg

I just remebered that we'll be coming in from the bottom of the indoor panel with the SER since most of the circuits have been run and the wires are clamped into the panel from the top. Does this change anything? I'm planning on running two wires up the left and into the right side 'Hot' lug and the right side neutral bus bar lug and two wires up the right and one into the other left side 'Hot' lug and the left side ground bus bar lug. There's going to be a slow 'U' bend on the top to bring the wires back down into the lugs except for the bare ground which will bend towards the left straight into the ground bus bar lug.

http://mxheadquarters.com/Gallery/im...onnections.jpg

Although the circuit wires are clamped into the top of the indoor panel, they are not connected to the breakers yet. Is there a certain requirement on the connections? Do I connect the main SER wires and then connect the circuits or is this a non-issue? I'd like to connect all the wires, then bring in the four SER wires. It just seems like it'll be easier to not have to work around 4/0 wires.

Oh yeah, before I forget, the meter main has a sticker on the inside cover and says that the 4/0 wires need to be torqued to 250 lbs inch. That's heck of a lot, is this for real?

Also, any aluminum connections need to have anti-oxydizing compound, even when connecting to circuit breakers, correct? And the main problem aluminum has a bad rap is because most individuals don't tighten the wire enough? So just make sure I put the anti-oxydizing compound and tighten the heck outa the aluminum wires right? Is there such a thing as too tight?

With the indoor panel, when connecting my circuits to the neutral and ground bus bars separately, can I double up on the wires under a lug or do those need to individuals also? The lugs seems so huge compared to the small #14 and #12 wires that make up the majority of the panel.

Also, I need to make sure that any left to right pair of breakers do not exceed 110 amps correct?

And just for clarification though I didn't do this, if I used a 12/3 to an outlet to run two different circuits that shared the same neutral, I'd have to make sure that the breakers for both circuits are on different 'Hot' tabs? Meaning the black SER and the blk/red stripe SER tabs? What is your recommendations on running this kind of circuits to save on wire? Could I run #12/3, share the neutral and connect one 20 amp circuit and the other a 15 amp circuit?

I have a #6/3 alu existing that is just 2 feet too short for the location of the new stove, can I just use the long barrel aluminum compression butt splice? It accepts both alu and cu and is already lined and capped with anti-oxidant. Can I just splice in the 2 feet needed and wrap with shrink wrap or rubber tape? If it's behind my kitchen cabinets against the wall, can I leave it there out of harms way or do I need to put the splice in a JB.

What's the requirements when insulating a splice? How much wraps and what type does it have to be?

My tankless water heater uses #6 cu, what's the best way to connect this? I can't go into the heater as that will void warranty, so I'll have to connect 2 #6 wires together. What would you normally use to connect these two together and fit them in a regular 4x4 JB

The 8 foot ground rod, how the heck does one go about driving a rod down that deep? All the work up to this point has seemed to be workable, but this ground rod is worrying me, because we are low on cash flow and the reason we're doing almost all the work. Driving a copper rod 8 feet down sounds like I would need a special setup to accomplish that. Do I dig a hole down place the rod in it and back fill? Or is it required to be driven from the start? Can you clear up this process for me please?

And everyone thinks being an electrician is easy! Yes, you are very correct, the eight foot rod must be driven down, anywhere from straight down to driving in at no more than a 45 deg angle due to bedrock. If bedrock is too shallow, then you are allowed to dig a 8 foot long trench, 2-1/2 feet deep to lay the rod in. In my early days I had to, apprentices get to install the rods, use a 3 or 5 pound sledge hammer to pound the rod in, and I use a pair of channel locks to keep the rod still, while I was standing on a ladder, remember the rod is 8 foot and I am only 6 foot, the pliers kept my hand from being wacked, most of the time. Nowadays you can get, rent, an electric rotary hammer, and with a special tip, more like a cup, use it to drive the rod in. So if you want to save money, and there is no bedrock, then get your self a sledge hammer and a pair of long handled pliers and start pounding. If you pond the tip into a mushroom, you will need to use a 2 piece ground clamp afterwards, if you have the acorn style one piece, do your self a favor and insert the rod before you start pounding, A mushroom head cut off the rod is a dead give away to an inspector the rod has been cut, and he will not believe that you drove in all eight feet.


Also, the wire path, can you verify that this should be correct. I'm staying away from a hard 90 degree bend with @SER

Yes your paths shown in the image are fine, and the connections are correct.


I just remebered that we'll be coming in from the bottom of the indoor panel with the SER since most of the circuits have been run and the wires are clamped into the panel from the top. Does this change anything? I'm planning on running two wires up the left and into the right side 'Hot' lug and the right side neutral bus bar lug and two wires up the right and one into the other left side 'Hot' lug and the left side ground bus bar lug. There's going to be a slow 'U' bend on the top to bring the wires back down into the lugs except for the bare ground which will bend towards the left straight into the ground bus bar lug.

The path is fine, just keep these large wires with tight neat bends and in the corners of the box to leave room for the branch circuit wires.

Although the circuit wires are clamped into the top of the indoor panel, they are not connected to the breakers yet. Is there a certain requirement on the connections? Do I connect the main SER wires and then connect the circuits or is this a non-issue? I'd like to connect all the wires, then bring in the four SER wires. It just seems like it'll be easier to not have to work around 4/0 wires.

Install and connect the 4/0 first. then install all the branch wires on the breakers and bars.

Oh yeah, before I forget, the meter main has a sticker on the inside cover and says that the 4/0 wires need to be torqued to 250 lbs inch. That's heck of a lot, is this for real?
Yes this is real, remember this is inch pounds not foot pounds.

Also, any aluminum connections need to have anti-oxydizing compound, even when connecting to circuit breakers, correct? And the main problem aluminum has a bad rap is because most individuals don't tighten the wire enough? So just make sure I put the anti-oxydizing compound and tighten the heck outa the aluminum wires right? Is there such a thing as too tight?

Any and all aluminum connections, onto a lug, or spliced must have anti-oxidant compound, otherwise the exposed aluminum will oxidize and this is where aluminum wire has the problem, Aluminum oxide does not conduct electricity as well as bare aluminum, so heat is created. yes, too tight can break the plastic mounting or distort the metal connector. Special torquing tools are required to torque connections, this includes copper AND aluminum, so don't think that only aluminum must be torqued.

With the indoor panel, when connecting my circuits to the neutral and ground bus bars separately, can I double up on the wires under a lug or do those need to individuals also? The lugs seems so huge compared to the small #14 and #12 wires that make up the majority of the panel.

Check the specs of the lugs, they must be rated for more than one wire to double any wires in any lug, most likely they are only rated for one wire.

Also, I need to make sure that any left to right pair of breakers do not exceed 110 amps correct?

? Not sure what you mean. Two opposing breakers on each side can be of any size,as long as neither breaker exceeds the rating the panel can handle for a branch circuit breaker.

And just for clarification though I didn't do this, if I used a 12/3 to an outlet to run two different circuits that shared the same neutral, I'd have to make sure that the breakers for both circuits are on different 'Hot' tabs? Meaning the black SER and the blk/red stripe SER tabs? What is your recommendations on running this kind of circuits to save on wire? Could I run #12/3, share the neutral and connect one 20 amp circuit and the other a 15 amp circuit?

Correct, two breakers for a shared neutral must be on different legs, and at the point out in the circuit the 3 wire changes to 2 wire the neutrals must be spliced, and not use screw terminals. 3 wire circuits are fine and allowed, just need to pay special attention to the neutral connections. I do not use shared neutrals for circuits that feed critical equipment such as in commercial. But for homes I use them often.

I have a #6/3 alu existing that is just 2 feet too short for the location of the new stove, can I just use the long barrel aluminum compression butt splice? It accepts both alu and cu and is already lined and capped with anti-oxidant. Can I just splice in the 2 feet needed and wrap with shrink wrap or rubber tape? If it's behind my kitchen cabinets against the wall, can I leave it there out of harms way or do I need to put the splice in a JB.

ALL SPLICES MUST BE CONTAINED IN AN APPROVED JUNCTION BOX WITH COVER. And the box must be accessible and not buried, if it can be seen under that cabinet that is fine.

What's the requirements when insulating a splice? How much wraps and what type does it have to be?

Get pre-insulated mechanical lug type connectors, most are rated for Al. Taping connections properly and using crimp style connectors need special crimping tools and are not for DIY'ers

My tankless water heater uses #6 cu, what's the best way to connect this? I can't go into the heater as that will void warranty, so I'll have to connect 2 #6 wires together. What would you normally use to connect these two together and fit them in a regular 4x4 JB[/QUOTE]

A 4x4 box is not large enough for #6 wires and splices. Get a 6x6, they make them in PVC and come 4 or 6 inch deep, For copper wires, you can use the large blue Scotch-Locks twist on connectors.