My husbands's 8 year old daughter is being seen by a local therapist. My husband is all legal parent rights. He called therapist to have a copy of her records. Instead of asking my husband to provide proof of his legal rights, she asked my husband's ex wife if he could have the records. Ex wife said he couldn't have records and now a huge battle has started. It is a violation for this therapist to go to the ex wife with this information? Should this have be kept between therapist and my husband? Is this a privacy violation or just bad ethics?

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Originally Posted by chrissycolleen

My husbands's 8 year old daughter is being seen by a local therapist. My husband is all legal parent rights. He called therapist to have a copy of her records. Instead of asking my husband to provide proof of his legal rights, she asked my husband's ex wife if he could have the records. Ex wife said he couldnt have records and now a huge battle has started. It is a violation for this therapist to go to the ex wife with this information? Should this have be kept between therapist and my husband? Is this a privacy violation or just bad ethics?

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I don't know what "my husband is all legal parent rights" means. Do you mean he has full physical custody?

Who physically takes the child to therapy, pays the bill, signed the HIPAA agreement (which includes who can be provided with health care information).

I don't know if the therapist's relationship with "the" daughter was through your husband or his ex-wife. What does the divorce decree say about sharing information?

I don't know why this is a huge battle - have his Attorney write her Attorney or go back to Court.

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Originally Posted by chrissycolleen

... Is this a privacy violation or just bad ethics?

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Neither. It's not a HIPAA violation because the theropist hasn't disclosed any medical information to anyone, evidently. And taking reasonable steps to protect against being sued (by the mother, for example) is not bad ethics in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by AK lawyer

Neither. It's not a HIPAA violation because the theropist hasn't disclosed any medical information to anyone, evidently. And taking reasonable steps to protect against being sued (by the mother, for example) is not bad ethics in my opinion.

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Where are you reading that the therapist isn't sharing info with anyone, for example, the mother?

I think for whatever reason the mother is the contact person and controls this particular situation.

The father will either have to enforce or revisit the divorce/custody arrangements.

Or am I missing something?

He has shared legal custody. I am not sure that its ethical that she shared with the therapist that he wants information. No other hospital, doctors office, etc. felt the need to give mom a "heads up" about him asking for information. They just asked to see documents that show he had shared legal custody and sent him the info. We think there was a prior relationship with this therapist and the mother... but we are having trouble getting info to prove it.

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Originally Posted by chrissycolleen

He has shared legal custody. i am not sure that its ethical that she shared with the therapist that he wants information. No other hospital, doctors office, etc. felt the need to give mom a "heads up" about him asking for information. they just asked to see documents that show he had shared legal custody and sent him the info. We think there was a prior relationship with this therapist and the mother...but we are having trouble getting info to prove it.

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Proof is usually the hang up. I'd ask if there was a signed HIPAA agreement, who signed it, what it says - for example, "mother only."

Sounds like something is going on!

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Where are you reading that the therapist isn't sharing info with anyone, for example, the mother?
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All OP has said is that the therapist asked "ex wife if [OP's husband] could have the records. Ex wife said he couldn't have records and now a huge battle has started." No-where does OP suggest that the ex-wife has actually seen the records. In Post #5, OP says the ex wife "shared with the therapist that he (OP's husband) wants information."

A request to have medically protected information is not in itself medically protected information.

First, I don't see either a HIPAA violation or an ethics violation. However, you didn't answer one question that is VERY KEY.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Who physically takes the child to therapy, pays the bill, signed the HIPAA agreement (which includes who can be provided with health care information).

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This can change our answers. Does your husband have primary physical custody or does the ex?

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Originally Posted by AK lawyer

All OP has said is that the therapist asked "ex wife if [OP's husband] could have the records. Ex wife said he couldnt have records and now a huge battle has started." No-where does OP suggest that the ex-wife has actually seen the records. In Post #5, OP says the ex wife "shared with the therapist that he (OP's husband) wants information."

A request to have medically protected information is not in itself medically protected information.

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I think there has to be a reason the therapist asked the mother (ex-wife) if the father (obviously also an "ex") could see the records.

Perhaps the ex-wife controls the situation by money, Court order, something else.

Until OP comes back, we don't know.

If there is a court battle , there is more going on, First it is not a HIPAA violation, since no medical info was given to anyone that was not entitled to it. I don't even see a ethical complaint.

The issue here is, if the mother took the child to see doctor, if the mother was paying for it, if the mother signed all the paper work, the doctor had no knowledge that the father had a legal right to anything. Has the father had any contact with the doctor prior to this request. Was the request in writing, with a copy of the court order showing he had joint legal custody?

Was the doctor visits somehow connected to the father ?

There would be no court battle now over this, if it is that easy, he has joint legal custdoy, court rules in 2 min he has the right to records.

So there has to be more to the story, care to share?

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

First, I don't see either a HIPAA violation or an ethics violation. However, you didn't answer one question that is VERY KEY.



This can change our answers. Does your husband have primary physical custody or does the ex?

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Ex has primary physical custody. They both have shared legal custody. Therapist doesn't need to ask mom anything... she needs to ask dad for proof of shared legal custody which he would have provided. He has received daughter's records from other hospitals, agencies, etc. they never asked moms "permission" just asked for proof of legal custody and sent them to him. Therapist and mom are up to something... they have lied to guardian ed litem and had his visit taken away. We found out they lied by getting daughters records from hospital. Can they be held liable for that? Unfortunately, mom is working the system because she herself is a therapist and is trying to block my husband from having any info about his daughter because we are finding out about their lies...

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

I think there has to be a reason the therapist asked the mother (ex-wife) if the father (obviously also an "ex") could see the records.

Perhaps the ex-wife controls the situation by money, Court order, something else.

Until OP comes back, we don't know.

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The reason is they have a prior relationship (mother and therapist) and something fishy is going on. Caught therapist in a lie to guardian ed litem to get dads visits taken away. Found out that she lied by receiving other medical records. They are hiding something...

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Originally Posted by chrissycolleen

The reason is they have a prior relationship (mother and therapist) and something fishy is going on. Caught therapist in a lie to guardian ed litem to get dads visits taken away. Found out that she lied by receiving other medical records. They are hiding something....

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Then go to Court and prove it - refusal to give info is not covered by HIPAA.

If the therapist lied in Court, you can prove it, she should be charged with perjury.

Ok, so the ex has primary. Which means the ex signed the parental consent forms. So there was no HIPAA violation. No privacy violation either. I don't see any ethics violation either. Yes the therapist could have asked for documentation to prove his right to the records. But there was nothing wrong in simply asking the primary.

On the other hand, the primary had no right to tell the therapist not to give him the records. All he needed to do was show the therapist documentation of shared legal custody and the therapist should have handed over the records despite what the ex said.

As far as the rest of it, prove the threapist lied and have the court order her off the case.

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Originally Posted by ScottGem

Ok, so the ex has primary. Which means the ex signed the parental consent forms. So there was no HIPAA violation. No privacy violation either. I don't see any ethics violation either. Yes the therapist could have asked for documentation to prove his right to the records. But there was nothing wrong in simply asking the primary.

On the other hand, the primary had no right to tell the therapist not to give him the records. All he needed to do was show the therapist documentation of shared legal custody and the therapist should have handed over the records despite what the ex said.

As far as the rest of it, prove the threapist lied and have the court order her off the case.

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Therapist is trying to convince him into taking a "treatment summary" instead of giving him the records even though she said she knows he has legal rights to records. Unfortunately, we are in debt over $40,000 in attny fees and my husband somehow acquired every bill from his former marriage. No more money to fight.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Then go to Court and prove it - refusal to give info is not covered by HIPAA.

If the therapist lied in Court, you can prove it, she should be charged with perjury.

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She didn't lie "in court" but in a letter to Guardian Ed Litem... no more money to fight. This custody battle has completely drained our bank account and my husband makes too much money "on paper" to get free legal help...

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

If there is a court battle , there is more going on, First it is not a HIPAA violation, since no medical info was given to anyone that was not entitled to it. I don't even see a ethical complaint.

The issue here is, if the mother took the child to see doctor, if the mother was paying for it, if the mother signed all the paper work, the doctor had no knowledge that the father had a legal right to anything. Has the father had any contact with the doctor prior to this request. Was the request in writing, with a copy of the court order showing he had joint legal custody?

Was the doctor visits somehow connected to the father ?

There would be no court battle now over this, if it is that easy, he has joint legal custdoy, court rules in 2 min he has the right to records.

So there has to be more to the story, care to share?

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Would love to share details, but not on open forum...

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Originally Posted by chrissycolleen

Therapist is trying to convince him into taking a "treatment summary" instead of giving him the records even though she said she knows he has legal rights to records. Unfortunately, we are in debt over $40,000 in attny fees and my husband somehow acquired every bill from his former marriage. No more money to fight.

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Why do you need the actual records and not the summary? It is not unsual in my area of NY to charge per page for records.

The summary won't "work?"

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

Why do you need the actual records and not the summary? It is not unsual in my area of NY to charge per page for records.

The summary won't "work?"

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We are well aware there may be a charge. But because of inconsistencies in the therapist's stories and mom's stories... we were hoping to find so kind of "evidence" in the records... the summary just gives dates of service and how his daughter is doing now. Im sure it is very confusing when you don't know all the details.

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Originally Posted by chrissycolleen

We are well aware there may be a charge. But because of inconsistencies in the therapist's stories and mom's stories...we were hoping to find so kind of "evidence" in the records...the summary just gives dates of service and how his daughter is doing now. Im sure it is very confusing when you dont know all the details.

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No, I think I'm following you, and I understand why you don't want to be too specific. In my area (NY) controls how much per page can be charged - when my husband died and I got the records from his final hospitalizaton the cost was over $500.

Are you aware that if a Court proceeding is underway you can subpoena the full records?