Hello:

I've been arguing with my right wing friends on these boards for a long time... I'm not going to convince them of anything.. By the same token, I'm not swayed by them either...

In this election cycle, I think MOST of the electorate is like us - hardened partisans... However, I wonder if there's ANYBODY who reads these boards, who considers themselves independent, and has been convinced by ANY of the arguments we make here.

Or, are we just talking to ourselves?

excon

You aren't an independent. Excon... you are a Democrat partisan just as I am a Republican partisan.

No Ex you cannot convince the true believer, you might sway the undecided but there is no one here who is not decided in their view. Even those who don't live within your borders have a serious view regarding your nation and its future direction. I understand what it is like to be within a polarised electorate and even independents have to come out of the closet occasionally. Sometimes we are surprised by which way they swing when they do because the truth is an independent can't win power, they can just articulate an alternative view

Both campaigns are concentrating on energizing their base . The number of independents are insignificant compared to efforts to get the base to the polls. That's why you see the polls showing about 95 % decided . That's why goups like 'No Labels ' went nowhere .

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello:

I've been arguing with my right wing friends on these boards for a long time... I'm not gonna convince them of anything.. By the same token, I'm not swayed by them either...

In this election cycle, I think MOST of the electorate is like us - hardened partisans... However, I wonder if there's ANYBODY who reads these boards, who considers themselves independent, and has been convinced by ANY of the arguments we make here.

Or, are we just talking to ourselves?

excon

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Hi Ex,

Yes,I am an independent because I deliberately try to avoid ideology.And Yes, for the most part you are talking to yourself; as indeed are the right wingers. Yet again, yes- no one here is going to change their mind.

Interestingly enough, there could be up to 70 percent of your population that subscribes to a particular ideology. Obviously, it is difficult to put an exact percentage figure on this, but clearly the majority of the population don't change their vote- regardless of circumstances.

During hard times ideology often raises its ugly head because complex problems require simplistic solutions. What can be simpler? We put forward a series of beliefs, myths and themes that exhaust the political possibilities.

Because we believe we are in possession of an all encompassing 'truth' we don't need to consult experience for a reality check. "The unshakable belief that we are on the trail to truth-and therefore to the solution to our problems-"


Sorry Ex. Probably not the answer your were looking for.

Tut

I'd say within each party's camp there are factions that have to be held . It's not that they would change their vote per se.;it's that they need the enthusiasm to at least go vote. You see that with both sides pandering . Romney may very well be pragmatic ;but he at least has to pay lip service to the factions within the Republican camp. The President has done things in the last year that clearly cater to individual factions in the Dem camp.

What you are NOT seeing is any effort to seize the middle. That may change in the next 2 months . That is because this election is so close ,that the 2-5% REAL independents could be decisive .

But for now ,it's more important for the camps to make sure their base coalition is enthusiastic .

Im an independent and I do research on what I can to keep up. The problem is that when there are discussions going on here the lines are mostly drawn already. You can see the writing on the wall before it is posted. All of us that have particpated have great arguments for "our" side. I was raised in a home that taught me to question beyond what the news is telling me. Im thankful for the internet and the resources it provides.

For the most part it's the big picture and the lessor of evils that make our choices into the political areana. Ex you do provide good arguments for your opinions. And I like how at least on here opinions no matter how varied are respected. I appreciate that in all of you no matter how stuck we become on a subject. As this election nears I see the lines being drawn even more clearly. That is a very hard thing to overcome no matter how good the argument. In the times when I have not written in a thread I have followed them and become educated in the process.

Its not about winning or losing its about the debates and participation in the process.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I'd say within each party's camp there are factions that have to be held . It's not that they would change their vote per se.;it's that they need the enthusiasm to at least go vote. You see that with both sides pandering . Romney may very well be pragmatic ;but he at least has to pay lip service to the factions within the Republican camp. The President has done things in the last year that clearly cater to individual factions in the Dem camp.

What you are NOT seeing is any effort to seize the middle. That may change in the next 2 months . That is because this election is so close ,that the 2-5% REAL independents could be decisive .

But for now ,it's more important for the camps to make sure their base coalition is enthusiastic .

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Hi Tom,

Very Interesting.

As I understand it, something over 50 percent of the population actually vote under normal circumstances. So, I am guessing that in this particular election you would expect a 60 percent plus turnout? I say this on the basis that the politicians( at least) see this election as some type of watershed. In other words, time to make a political stand?

But then again I only get my information here, Perhaps this election is just like any other election. Do you see a difference?

Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Tom,

Very Interesting.

As I understand it, something over 50 percent of the population actually vote under normal circumstances. So, I am guessing that in this particular election you would expect a 60 percent plus turnout? I say this on the basis that the politicians( at least) see this election as some type of watershed. In other words, time to make a political stand?

But then again I only get my information here, Perhaps this election is just like any other election. Do you see a difference?

Tut

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I see an attitude that seems to be different in this election that I haven't seen since the Carter years. This president made promises and commitments that he couldn't follow through on even under executive order. He continues to try every trick in the book to deflect from reality.

Many people are upset by the current conditions of this country and how it has been handled. Its going to be an interesting series of debates once they get started. Lets the games begin.

There are a lot of side show distractions in this cycle like Obama's attacks on Romney's taxes ,Bain etc . These attacks do not convince anyone or change anyone's minds . It is red meat for the base .
What has mattered in recent years is the economy . When you look at wins and losses You see :

Carter lost during a recession
Reagan won reelection by a landslide in a boom
GHW Bush lost at 1% GDP
Clinton won reelection in an economic recovery
GW Bush beat the VP during a recession
GW Bush won reelection barely with a 2.6% GDP
Obama beat McCain (representing the party of the incumbent ) during a recession.
The current GDP is barely above 1% ;and that will not change before the election .
OFA (Obama's campaign ) is wise the distract from an economic debate.

The Ryan selection has introduced entitlements back into the debate . But Romney should make it a point to bring the debate back to the poor economic performance of the President in the coming days... certainly by the convention.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

There are alot of side show distractions in this cycle ...

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To be honest it happens every cycle on both sides.

Yes and they are relatively insignificant to the outcome.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

yes and they are relatively insignificant to the outcome.

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Well except for maybe the Kerry thing.

I am a registered independent.
I'm a BH liberal in many respects but also don't like throwing a lot of money around on EVERY social program there is. But I don't believe in trickle down or tax breaks for the rich either. But I do believe in small business tax breaks for the first 5 years. And so on - a mix.