Ask Me Help Desk - Why is the white wire hot?

Hi,

I'm installing a ceiling fan w/ light into my bedroom where previously there was no overhead fixture/electric box. I have a new switch that operates the light and fan independently (acts as two switches). So I have run 2 new 2-wire wires from the existing switch box to the new electrical box I installed in the ceiling. So there are 6 wires coming out of the ceiling (red, black, ground x 2). In the switch box I have the other ends of the two new 2-wires wires from the ceiling. There is also a third 2-wire in the switch box which was already there and controls the top outlet for all of the outlets in the room.

When I test the 2-wire that was already in the switch I find that the white wire is the hot wire! I know this can happen but seems like it was done on purpose and is confusing me.

The existing 2-wire in the switch does not connect to the first outlet as I would have thought. It connects to an electrical box in the attic that has two white 2-wire wires(one being from switch) and two black 3-wire wires. The black wire from the switch is pigtailed to the red wires in the panel in the attic. The white wire from the switch is connected to the black wires in the attic box which is where I believe it is getting the live feed?

Should this white wire always be live or is it live because of how the switch is wired to the oultets?

I recently install a ceiling light/electrical box in another room that also did not have an existing ceiling box. In that situation the switch was directly connected to the outlet. I capped the red wires in the switch and outlet and replaced the outlet so that both the top and bottom outlet would always be live and no longer controlled by the switch.

I attempted the same in the other bedroom and switch indicates that it is wired correctly (based on a tool I have), but I'm wondering if it is the last outlet in the string and is therefore having no bearing on the switch.

Is there anything wrong with the white wire being hot in this scenario?

Any help is appreciated. Sorry for the book!

Are you located in the U.S?

Had to ask, wire colors are a bit confusing. Wire colors in Europe, United Kingdom and other places are different

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So there are 6 wires coming out of the ceiling (red, black, ground x 2

That must be a typo.

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switch is pigtailed to the red wires in the panel in the attic.

I assume that "pigtailed" as you are using the term, means connected. A pigtail is a short piece of wire that is added to a connection so that additional connections to a wire can be made.

I also assume that "panel" means the junction box. It helps to be consistent in the use of terms.

Not an admonishment, just information (I realize that you are probably not familiar with the jargon).
A wire is a single wire. A cable is two or more wires in an outer covering (sheathing). The use of the term "wire" to refer to both gets confusing.

To answer your question about the white wire being hot.

What you have is called a switch loop. The white wire is used to take power to the switch and the black wire is used to bring the power back to the fixture. It is done that way so that you have a black wire as hot in the fixture box. The white wire should be redesiginated as a hot by coloring both ends some color other than white or grey.

It is unusal to have all the outlets in a room split as you describe. Usually only one is split for use as a lamp outlet. The way that this has been done is also a bit unusual but perhaps there is a valid reason.
You may do away with the split outlets by replacing them and cap each end of the red wires with a wire nut. You could also make both halves hot all the time by connecting the red wires to the black wires in the junction box. Would probably be best to replace the outlets and marking the red wires "unused" or "dead" on both ends. Not required to do that but would be less confusing for the next person, or even yourself when you come back years from now.

You cannot take power the for the ceiling fan/light from the switch location as it is presently wired. There is no neutral at the switch.

You can run power, 2-wire cable, from the junction box to the ceiling box and then run 3-wire cable from the ceiling box to the switch location for a switch loop.

Or you can make the switch leg that presently runs from the junction box to the switch a power cable. Then you can use the two 2-wire cables to take hot and neutral to the ceiling box. It would have been neater to have used 3-wire cable but since you have already run the two cables you can use them. Connect the whites of those two cables to the white of the cable from the junction box. Connect the black of the wire from the junction box to each switch. Connect the black of the two new cables to the other side of the switches.

The junction box will have to be rewired. Connect all blacks together. Connect all whites together. Cap all red wires if you have not already done so.

Thank you for your very detailed response! Great explanation and thanks f or clarifying the terms.
Yes, there was a typo there mentioning “red”.
You describe the cable coming from the junction box to the switch as a “switch loop” where the white bring and that the black wire bring power back to the fixture. Do you mean the junction box since there was previously no fixture?
I have already replaced the remaining outlets capping the red wire. I thought it was odd that all of the top outlets are controlled by the switch but the whole house is that way. I just moved in in Jan.
So to confirm.. I should rewire the junction box wiring all blacks together, all whites together, and cap the reds? I believe one of the red wires in the junction box is controlling an outside flood light outside of the master bedroom window and therefore will need at least one of the reds. Can I wire that red in with the black wires? That would be 5 wires in one nut or should I split it to be 3 and 2.
The switch I have has two levers; one controlling the light and one controlling the fan but it needs to 2-wire cables (or a 3 wire) to power it. It instructs connecting the black from the switch to the black from the 2-wire cable in the switch box, ground to ground, red from the switch to black from the new cable, yellow from switch to the black from the other new cable. I originally did all of this as well as wire the white wires from the newly run cables to the white wire in the switch box.
Knowing this does that change how I should wire the switch? In your response you mention that I should wire the white from the junction box to the white wires from the newly run cables. Do you mean connect it to the white in the switch box? I don't see how I would otherwise w ire the white from the junction box to the newly run cables?
Thanks for your help!

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Do you mean the junction box since there was previously no fixture?

The description is a generic description of a switch loop. In you case it would be the junction box.

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So to confirm.. I should rewire the junction box wiring all blacks together, all whites together, and cap the reds?

Yes, By doing this you will be changing the switch loop to just another power cable. You will of course rewire the switch. See instructions for connections at the switch box. You must do this in order to have a neutral at the switch box.

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Can I wire that red in with the black wires?

Yes,

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That would be 5 wires in one nut or should I split it to be 3 and 2.

Yes probably be easier. Wire two together and add a pigtail. Wire another two together and add a pigtail. Wire the two pigtails together with the fifth wire. Might seem like a lot of extra work but it will be easier and you will probably get better conections.

Switch connections.

All whites together.

Black of the cable from the junction box to black of switch.

Black of one cable to fan/light to red of switch.

Black of other cable to fan/light to yellow of switch.

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to the white wire in the switch box

Not sure what that means. You should now have three cables in the switch box and therefore three white wires. All of these whites are neutrals and should be connected together. Will not be connected to the switch unless the switch requires a neutral, in which case it will have a white wire.

Ground wires are a safety wires. They are not part of the circuitry. Always connect all ground wires together and also connect them to any metal box and to all fixtures, including switches, which have a ground screw or ground wire.

Thanks Harold! I was able to wire the fan/light and junction box tonight when I got home. Everything is working now. I really appreciate your help and quick response!