I have got an old summer house that needs lot of attention now as I am planning to make it my main residence. It has a tradition of DIY dating back to 1860 and I am trying to live up to that tradition and so I find this site incredibly helpful and I am very appreciative.
The domestic water feed, 1/2 in copper, snakes around in a convoluted manner and developed a couple of pinprick's that needed fixing in crawl space that only had inches of room and the shower water pressure is meager and the hot water takes 4-5 minutes to reach the shower or the kitchen. This has me considering re-plumbing. I found a new path for pipes that would be a more direct route and I am considering 3/4 copper to have better water pressure and providing for a recirculating loop and insulation.
30 ft to kitchen and back half way, then up to second floor in a chase, then back down and continue back to the hot water tank. 1/2 in copper from this 3/4 loop to each 'station' no more than 3-5 ft. Does this seem like a good plan ?
My questions include: should the third pipe also be 3/4 ?
Is it expensive to run due to the cool down through the pipe ?
I would think the circulating pump moves the water slowly or does it have to make the same pressure as if it wasn't there ? How does the water know which way to feed ? Can one make it more economical by having the pump on a thermostat or timer?
What happens if pump is shut off via timer and one wants to draw water, would there be pressure ?
I looked at valves availbale that pass the cooled hot water through the cold pipe and shut off the hot when it reaches the valve, but I have excellent well water and it's cool. Also I'd need 4-5 of those valves. Since I have to rebuild shower and have access to install new pipes and a third pipe, it seems the better solution.
Any other thoughts and advice in this regard is very welcome.

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Originally Posted by saffle

I have got an old summer house that needs lot of attention now as I am planning to make it my main residence. It has a tradition of DIY dating back to 1860 and I am trying to live up to that tradition and so I find this site incredibly helpful and I am very appreciative.
The domestic water feed, 1/2 in copper, snakes around in a convoluted manner and developed a couple of pinprick's that needed fixing in crawl space that only had inches of room and the shower water pressure is meager and the hot water takes 4-5 minutes to reach the shower or the kitchen. This has me considering re-plumbing. I found a new path for pipes that would be a more direct route and I am considering 3/4 copper to have better water pressure and providing for a recirculating loop and insulation.
30 ft to kitchen and back half way, then up to second floor in a chase, then back down and continue back to the hot water tank. 1/2 in copper from this 3/4 loop to each 'station' no more than 3-5 ft. Does this seem like a good plan ?
My questions include: should the third pipe also be 3/4 ?
Is it expensive to run due to the cool down through the pipe ?
I would think the circulating pump moves the water slowly or does it have to make the same pressure as if it wasn't there ? How does the water know which way to feed ? Can one make it more economical by having the pump on a thermostat or timer?
What happens if pump is shut off via timer and one wants to draw water, would there be pressure ?
I looked at valves availbale that pass the cooled hot water through the cold pipe and shut off the hot when it reaches the valve, but I have excellent well water and it's cool. Also I'd need 4-5 of those valves. Since I have to rebuild shower and have access to install new pipes and a third pipe, it seems the better solution.
Any other thoughts and advice in this regard is very welcome.

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Hey Saffle, You are a busy person. Need a contractor? So, is the well on a captive air tank for equalized pressure? Or is this a hand-dug with jet pump to tank core? Sounds like the water pressure from the supply tank is not high enough. S/b about 30 psi at least. About those pin pricks in the copper... btw is usually an electrical grounding issue. It can also be attributed to the mineral content of the water with triboelectric pipe erosion.

So as far as maintaining heat in the pipes, an on demand instant heat is good if you have the electrical panel capacity and like to wire and plumb. Or use a recirculating Grundfas pump does need a round trip pipe configuration like you contemplate. These are all viable if the paycheck meets the plumbers fee. Let me know what you think. Nm

I do need a contractor. If only for the amount of stuff that needs to be done, but I'm trying to do as much as I would be capable of doing and now I'm planning and educating myself.
I've got a captive air tank, pump turns on at 30 psi and water pressure is good elsewhere, but the shower has bad pressure and was built wrong, deteriorated quickly and now will be rebuilt, so I have the opportunity do redo the water feed since I got access. Under the shower will be the new path to kitchen as well with a branch to the second floor. I'm thinking of installing the copper pipes myself. I've managed to install a few hot water radiators, renovate the kitchen complete with the carpentry, plumbing, gas and electric, so I think I'm OK. I will get pros to do the old cast iron waste and the shower base, haven't decided about the tile yet.
Instant hot water still has to travel that same distance and so would take a while to reach the kitchen on the far side. Correct ?
Plenty of water pressure in the kitchen, but even through 1/2 pipe now it takes 4-5 minutes to reach in winter. That is why I'm asking about recirculating the hot water. I'm thinking a small hot water holding tank off a new boiler. Current boiler is from 1931.
As far as the pinholes - I discovered recently that the pipes are not grounded and there are plenty of minerals in the well water, but those pipes have been there at least 28 years, so if I get another 28 years out of the new pipes I'm OK.
My oter questions had to do with if running the circulating system is exopensive. I will insulate everythin well. Also if there is a water pressure issue if pump runs only at peak hours ?

In the city of atlanta they have a rule, no 1/2" tees. it is not code but they get away with it. on your system with low pressure i suggest you follow that rule for good distribution. 3/4" will be fine.
As for recirculation, I suggest home depot. They have a kit for 199.95 and it mounts on the hot side of the water heater and has a kit that crosses the hot and cold at the furthest fixture to give you almost instant hot water. My clients have loved it. You will need a receptacle at the water heater.
As for size of individual recirc line [the 3rd line]. It can easily be 1/2" if you do not use the crossover kit.
As for insulation, what is your temperatures like? I would definitely insulate the hot and the recirc loop. I would consider the cold as it drops my 'warm water temp' and makes my water heater work harder if the cold is exposed to very cold temps.

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Originally Posted by saffle

I'm thinking of installing the copper pipes myself. I've managed to install a few hot water radiators, renovate the kitchen complete with the carpentry, plumbing, gas and electric, so I think I'm ok.
Geez you are busy. Have you fixed the timber supports already?:D Are those hot radiators part of the old boiler heat system?
I will get pros to do the the old cast iron waste Have them convert over to ABS if possibleand the shower base, haven't decided about the tile yet.Do the shower yourself. Look at some of my replies on shower stalls. It's easy. Put in a fiber pan and tile the walls.
Instant hot water still has to travel that same distance and so would take a while to reach the kitchen on the far side. Correct ? So you have an instant heat. Thats great for short distances at local lav and shower arrangements but it is costly to install.
Plenty of water pressure in the kitchen, but even through 1/2 pipe now it takes 4-5 minutes to reach in winter. Yes, a 3/4 inch main supply with 1/2 inch stubs to each fixture is the proper way to goThat is why I'm asking about recirculating the hot water.How big is this place may I ask, why don't you pop for a 52 gal electrica water heater and center it between the kitchen and bathroom. Install a Grundfas circuilating pump and you will have hot water on all the time unless this place is a ski chalet you don't need that much heat capacity. I'm thinking a small hot water holding tank off of a new boiler. Current boiler is from 1931. Is this boiler for hydronic heating throughout the house?
As far as the pinholes - I discovered recently that the pipes are not grounded and there are plenty of minerals in the well water, but those pipes have been there at least 28 years, so if I get another 28 years out of the new pipes i'm ok. Is the copper mixed with galvanized pipe for you supply from the well? This is where alot of electrolysis erosion comes from if dielectric unions are not used. I would replumb the whole house new with copper. I believe in Cadillacs and quality.
My oter questions had to do with if running the circulating system is exopensive. If you live in a real cold area I recommend the Grunfas pulse pump that uses little energy. It is the copper radiant loss from the standing pipe system that requires more energy to maintain the thermostat control level set at the heaters.I will insulate everythin well. Helps some....maybe 15% but thats all. Also if there is a water pressure issue if pump runs only at peak hours ?30psi is somewhat below the norm, usually a city dwelling supply runs about 50 to 75 because that is what range pressure regulators are set at. A well should be cranking out about 60 psi and drawing down to 30 from what I remember from rural installation days. Depends on where the well is and what the static pressure is developed from the pump. Distance has a lot to do with it also. If it is a deep submersible, say 200 feet the pump should be 1.5 Hp motor with a 10 gpm impeller section.

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As far as your electrical panels go, it sounds like you have the capacity to do a lot of baseboard heating in frequent lived areas in the house. BTW, I agree with tk on keeping the two meters. It is a great selling point later especially if you want to rent out the other half when you retire. Then you can write books about all this stuff like I do. :) nm

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Originally Posted by saffle

snip...
Instant hot water still has to travel that same distance and so would take a while to reach the kitchen on the far side. Correct ?
Plenty of water pressure in the kitchen, but even through 1/2 pipe now it takes 4-5 minutes to reach in winter. That is why I'm asking about recirculating the hot water. I'm thinking a small hot water holding tank off of a new boiler. Current boiler is from 1931.
As far as the pinholes - I discovered recently that the pipes are not grounded and there are plenty of minerals in the well water, but those pipes have been there at least 28 years, so if I get another 28 years out of the new pipes i'm ok.
My oter questions had to do with if running the circulating system is exopensive. I will insulate everythin well. Also if there is a water pressure issue if pump runs only at peak hours ?

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You are right, instant hot water is only instant at the outlet of the heater. I looked into them hoping to locate one in my crawl space directly under where we use most of our hot water. The gas models may be small, but have too large of clearances to fit in my crawl space. Tom, another member, and I have all looked into gas water heaters to fit in a crawl space and found nothing. For me to go electric would require an expensive upgrade my utility might refuse. Your situation could be different. An electric one under the shower might work well.

I also find the claimed savings with the instant ones dubious. What they claim a tank wastes, exceeds my summer gas usage gas drier and all.

I never liked the idea of the recalculating systems with so much to go wrong and energy wastage. What ever it costs to run now, count on it being much higher in 5 years. I also don't know how they would work with the minimum flow rates of the instant systems. You can go to their web sites and look at their specifications.

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Originally Posted by saffle

snip...
IAs far as the pinholes - I discovered recently that the pipes are not grounded and there are plenty of minerals in the well water, but those pipes have been there at least 28 years, so if I get another 28 years out of the new pipes i'm

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See https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/electr...ets-68168.html post #2

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I looked into them hoping to locate one in my crawl space directly under where we use most of our hot water.

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Well, there's your number one problem right there, Labman.

Did the person who filled your head full of the other incorrect information about on-demand heaters point out that you could have installed the unit on the exterior of your house -- And don't tell me you live in an extreme cold environment, I've seen these heaters converted for propane use installed on the exterior of houses in some of the coldest locations in Alaska and Canada.

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The gas models may be small, but have too large of clearances to fit in my crawl space.

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In *YOUR* crawlspace, Labman -- IOW, you won't recommend the unit because it didn't meet the erroneous limitations you or the installer placed on it.

Exactly how deep is your crawlspace?

And again, why didn't the person walking you through the installation suggest installing it on the exterior of the house?

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Tom, another member, and I have all looked into gas water heaters to fit in a crawl space and found nothing.

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You mean you didn't find anything that matched *your* particular needs based on yours and/or the installers close-minded installation practices, Labman.

Sheesh, Labman, now that you've fully explained why you are so dead set against recommending these units, I find your reasoning even more nonsensical than ever.

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Originally Posted by iamgrowler

Did the person who filled your head full of the other incorrect information about on-demand heaters point out that you could have installed the unit on the exterior of your house

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I'd say "growler" describes you well. If you have the 'correct' information in regards to my question and on-demand hot water, please share it.
This is my question: I have a cluster of a shower on first floor and two baths on second floor in one location and then further away a kitchen. I intend to later replace a boiler for hot water heat and domestic hot water. Maybe on demand. Good Idea?
However, that does not solve the issue of waiting for the hot water to reach second floor and the kitchen. Seems only solution is circulating the water - then I need a tank. Correct ?
Now the distances would be shortened, when I replace the piping that now is more than twice as long as needed, 1/2" and convoluted, but the kitchen is still about a 40' direct pipe run and with 3/4 there is even more chilled hot water to move before the on-demand gets there. So how would I solve this ? A separate on-demand unit in the kitchen maybe, but it is located between what used to be two buildings with only a short wall to the outside crawl space covered by impenetrable slab and a floor above to go through with vents for a gas unit... so it still seems less practical than using boiler and recirculating the hot water. A pump and copper pipes seems less expensive as an installation also...

Electric is expensive on Long Island NY, but I have natural gas arriving in a pipe, so that is my best bet for energy and I plan to keep hot water heating and later augment with radiant heat in the carriage room/stable that has a slab. No room to put a water heater closer to usage. I plan to follow tkrussel's advice on the electric and tie all grounds together. Water from the well at least 400 ft down to get through saltwater table to aquifer. Pressure tank does give 30-60 psi.
Big project, but I'm trying to get the big picture and then address it sequentially.

Hey Saffle, You are really getting some answers now. This long distant clairvoyance sure makes for a lot of fun. Now I am getting familiar with the floor plan and the program.

I think a small on-demand under the kitchen sink is in order. Kind of spendy but less so than trying to get at the crawl space and slab pipe transitions or putting it outside. (trying to save the antique ambiance externally.)
In regards to gas that might be a bonus for your new 66 gal water heater with a circulating Grunfas pump. The question is, can you locate the tank close to the bathroom main supply core? Probably needs added gas run but pipe is cheap. The venting of the water heater may be the challenge here. There are new water heater fan vent units that might be an answer. I originally suggested electrical to eliminate that challenge. What the hey, you can put some solar hot boxes behind the house and they will help on the utility bill reduction.;)

Looks like the well is not problem then. Good water, no salt... cool. I wonder if the captive air unit is at the well or near the house. This may help the pressure a little bit more between pump cycles. Just a thought. (Static head.)

Anyway, this sounds like your house would be a good bed and breakfast attraction. Just mention that old Abe slept here. :D :D :D nm

My 25+ year old tank died last summer. I installed the new one closer to the back of the house where we use most of our water. Now I can touch it and the washing machine both at the same time. Everything tees off the same line. The run to the master bath, which isn't used much through the day, is longer; but everything else is shorter. Once the first shower is finished, we have hot water everywhere else in seconds.

So look your house over and try to figure out what will work for you. On the electrical stuff, I would do exactly as tkrussel says. He knows his stuff and does his best to help.

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Originally Posted by iamgrowler

Well, there's your number one problem right there, Labman.

Did the person who filled your head full of the other incorrect information about on-demand heaters point out that you could have installed the unit on the exterior of your house -- And don't tell me you live in an extreme cold environment, I've seen these heaters converted for propane use installed on the exterior of houses in some of the coldest locations in Alaska and Canada.



In *YOUR* crawlspace, Labman -- IOW, you won't recommend the unit because it didn't meet the erroneous limitations you or the installer placed on it.

Exactly how deep is your crawlspace?

And again, why didn't the person walking you through the installation suggest installing it on the exterior of the house?



You mean you didn't find anything that matched *your* particular needs based on yours and/or the installers close-minded installation practices, Labman.

Sheesh, Labman, now that you've fully explained why you are so dead set against recommending these units, I find your reasoning even more nonsensical than ever.

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I want to address a few points. My first point is that the case for the instant water heaters must be awful weak if my suggestions to look at the facts before buying one upsets you so.

Second, most of my information about them comes from the manufacturers' web sites and sales literature. I happen to be able to read English. If they are full on incorrect information, no wonder they lost a chance to sell me. I looked most closely at Bosch and Paloma units because that is what my local Lowe's stocked at the time. So take up your argument with your friends at Bosch.

Any casual inspection of the Bosch unit shows it can be used hanging on the outside of the house, the inlet and outlet actually facing to the back to go inside. By the time I was ready to consider that, I was so disgusted by the difference in their claims about how much gas a tank type uses and my gas bill plus the minimum flow rate problem. My gas company sends me a notice every month showing the cubic feet of gas and therms used.
Again, I can read English.

As for my crawl space, It varies, maybe about 3'-4' in the area I wanted to put the water heater. Plenty of room for my 84,000 BTU furnace. If you want to maintain any credibility on this issue, I suggest you post back with a link to one suitable for a 2000 sqft house whose size and vertical clearances add up to less than 4'. And where were you a couple of months ago when a member was begging for a source of a gas water heater to install in his crawl space??

Oh and did you read:

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Originally Posted by labman

Your situation could be different. An electric one under the shower might work well.

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I think that is far more objective than anything you have posted and contradicts some of your post.

Life is tough. There are always people around with a sharp fact to prick your marketing hype balloon. Worse yet when it is a knowledgeable person capable of digging up their own information and not relying on somebody selling something. When I was an industrial manager, I was taught to dig up the facts before making a decision. If I had decided a tankless water heater would save money for the employees shower room, and presented the weak case I have seen based on what a vendor said, the accountants would have torn it up and my boss would have been on my back for wasting everybody's time with such nonsense.

Oh, by the way the factory I was managing was heavy on piping, all kinds of fluids, not just relatively easy water and natural gas, but steam, process oils, and hydraulics. A wet rag won't stop an oil or hydraulic leak. It was a big mess when I took over. The accountants, OSHA, and the EPA were arguing about who go to close it down. A few years later my boss was quite impressed the day the OSHA inspector cut short his visit and left without issuing a single citation. Much of the difference was due to my personal involvement in both day to day maintenance and project engineering. I found cost effective solutions to problems nobody else had solved for 20 years. It is amazing how resourceful you can be when you can either sit at your desk and call people telling them what you said on deliveries was a crock, or you can go out on the floor and figure out how to fix the problem.

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I want to address a few points. My first point is that the case for the instant water heaters must be awful weak if my suggestions to look at the facts before buying one upsets you so.

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You got that from post, eh?

Is there no end to the depths of your arrogance, Labman?

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Second, most of my information about them comes from the manufacturers' web sites and sales literature. I happen to be able to read English. If they are full on incorrect information, no wonder they lost a chance to sell me. I looked most closely at Bosch and Paloma units because that is what my local Lowe's stocked at the time. So take up your argument with your friends at Bosch.

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Why would I take up my argument with Bosch when you are the one who looked at two different manufacturers and then called it quits?

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Any casual inspection of the Bosch unit shows it can be used hanging on the outside of the house, the inlet and outlet actually facing to the back to go inside. By the time I was ready to consider that, I was so disgusted by the difference in their claims about how much gas a tank type uses and my gas bill plus the minimum flow rate problem. My gas company sends me a notice every month showing the cubic feet of gas and therms used.
Again, I can read English.

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IOW, the explanation for why you wouldn't recommend a tankless heater in this particular thread (you couldn't meet the clearance requirements) was a load of hogwash, Labman.

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As for my crawl space, It varies, maybe about 3'-4' in the area I wanted to put the water heater. Plenty of room for my 84,000 BTU furnace.

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But just a paragraph ago you admitted to knowing about the exterior located unit and were blaming your aversion to tankless heaters based on energy savings gleaned from only two sources, Labman.

It sounds to me like:

A) You didn't do nearly enough research to come to the conclusions you did.

B) You were too set on locating the unit in your crawlspace to look more closely at alternative installation locations.

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If you want to maintain any credibility on this issue

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My credibility isn't at issue here, Labman, it's yours that's take its usual beating.

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I suggest you post back with a link to one suitable for a 2000 sqft house whose size and vertical clearances add up to less than 4'.

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Why?

Those are limitations placed on the installation by you, not by Saffle or myself.

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And where were you a couple of months ago when a member was begging for a source of a gas water heater to install in his crawl space??

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And there's the rub, Labman -- I wouldn't recommend installing a tankless heater in a crawlspace unless the poster had the proper clearance.

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Oh and did you read:

I think that is far more objective than anything you have posted and contradicts some of your post.

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Trust me, Labman, should you ever write anything even remotely objective on the subject of tankless heaters, I'll be the first to let you know.

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Life is tough. There are always people around with a sharp fact to prick your marketing hype balloon. Worse yet when it is a knowledgeable person capable of digging up their own information and not relying on somebody selling something.

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A) You contradicting yourself isn't a sharp fact.

B) I'm not marketing anything here.

C) The information you dug up was based on a very thin slice of the information available.

D) I'm not selling anything here.

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When I was an industrial manager, I was taught to dig up the facts before making a decision.

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And apparently you didn't take that sage advice with you into your retirement.

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If I had decided a tankless water heater would save money for the employees shower room, and presented the weak case I have seen based on what a vendor said, the accountants would have torn it up and my boss would have been on my back for wasting everybody's time with such nonsense.

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And there's the rub -- I haven't made a case for or made any recommendations to the original poster at all.

What I have done is pointed out that your aversion to tankless heaters is based on limited research and pig-headed determination to locate a heater in a crawlspace instead of considering alternative locations.

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I'd say "growler" describes you well. If you have the 'correct' information in regards to my question and on-demand hot water, please share it.
This is my question: I have a cluster of a shower on first floor and two baths on second floor in one location and then further away a kitchen. I intend to later replace a boiler for hot water heat and domestic hot water. Maybe on demand. Good Idea?

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If you're going to eventually put in a hydronic heating system, then a tankless 'on-demand' system really isn't for you.

What you want is a CombiCor or similar direct fired water heater.

This will handle both your hydronic and your domestic hot water needs.

As for your domestic hot water needs, you're on the right track about installing a recirculating system. Grundfoss makes an excellent 3/4" bronze circulating pump with an add on timer that will handle multiple recirculation zones.

If this were my house, I would run at least three different zones, one to the kitchen, one to the first bathroom and one to the furthest away bathroom -- Also, I wouldn't recommed copper in this day and age (who can afford the material, let alone an armed guard to keep watch over it before the walls are covered up?).

You could do this job considerably cheaper if you went with Wirsbo's AquaPex.

Also, you'll have far less heat loss on the recirculating system if you insulate the hot water lines and the return lines -- Insulation for recirculation systems is actually code here in WA state.

I would like to wade in on the tankless issue. Number one, an experienced plumber in the field is worth 4 engineers that have no practical experience. If I tried to sell you a yugo and you argued with me I would agree. But the bosch does not compare to the better tankless heaters by far. I am a certified rinnai installer and shortly after I got certified I put one in my home. My house is 2800 sq ft and 3 1/2 bath with 2 full size laundry rooms. In my hall bath I have a 5 foot whirlpool. In my master I got a 6 foot whirlpool and a 4 foot sq shower. I will stand by my tankless. It has delivered everything they said it would. I have also installed them in a 4 foot crawlspace and the clients loved it. By the way, labman, how much does 10 gallons of water cost? How much does 10 gallons of water cost compared to the convenience of instant hot water? How much does it cost the heat a tank 8 times a day just because that is how many times it cools down and has to recycle? If you want to crunch numbers, you can't touch a respectable tankless.
It has been my experience that if I buy a lincoln or a cadilac that it will give me more comfort, break down less, have more power and control, and even have a higher resale that a ford escort. Your bosch is the ford escort and my rinnai is the lincoln or cadilac. Get off the bosch and try comparing your tank to my rinnai tankless. It beats a 40. It beats a 50. It beats a 66. It beats a 75. It beats a 100. Electric or gas, it beats them all. And by the time you got to the 100, you just spent more than my tankless.

I have said what I have to say, and hope lots of people read this thread.

I feel like my thread was hijacked - it's like having a birthday and a fist-fight broke out.
Why don't you guys start your own thread and name it aptly ! The personal attacks don't provide any pertinent information on the subject. This is a free country and people are entitled to their opinion. Third parties can benefit from the discussion, as long as what is discussed is about the subject and not feelings about a person in the discussion.

I am certainly interested in the pros and cons of tankless heaters, but I've already come to a conclusion, hopefully correct, that the tankless is not for my application for two reasons: 1/ Due to distance from where any gas unit can be placed in my house, which needs a vent to the roof, I need a circulating hot water system. 2/ Later I'll want to install a radiant heat floor system.
GrundFos was suggested and by checking the literature it answered most of my pesky questions and seems perfect.
Someone suggested CombiCor and I appreciate that post that is on subject. I like the idea of a unit that takes care of both heating and domestic hot water and purports to be energy efficient. What about in the summer, are there losses, energy and cost wise, when the heating is not necessary ? Compared to two separate units ?
The suggestion of AquaPex gives me pause. My wife and I are both allergic to most chemicals, especially my wife. Most plastics makes her throat close up. She cannot visit her parents, because of their new house. We also know of many people who are sick from their new houses. I appreciate my old organic house. I'm partial to staying with copper for potable water. The savings in installling Pex is mostly in labor - I'll be installing the pipes myself. The radiant heat would have the pex buried so it should be OK...

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Originally Posted by saffle

I feel like my thread was hijacked - it's like having a birthday and a fist-fight broke out.
Why dont you guys start your own thread and name it aptly ! The personal attacks dont provide any pertinent information on the subject. This is a free country and people are entitled to their opinion. Third parties can benefit from the discussion, as long as what is discussed is about the subject and not feelings about a person in the discussion.

Howdy Saffle, You are just a popular poster. I thought I answered a thread somewhere on this forum about 'on demand' water heaters. There is nothing thankless about them and were cutting edge technology back in the early 70''s. The first residential grade units were from Japan and worked really great. The modern units that are highly efficient electrical compact heaters mount under the sink or vanity. I suggested that considering one in the kitchen would resolve your remote issue. It is an easy install and requires a 12-2 w/gnd BC. You have the panels so that shouldn't be a problem. Forget the gas setup except for cooking. log fireplace, and the central heating boiler.

I am certainly interested in the pros and cons of tankless heaters, but i've already come to a conclusion, hopefully correct, that the tankless is not for my application for two reasons: 1/ Due to distance from where any gas unit can be placed in my house, which needs a vent to the roof, I need a circulating hot water system. 2/ Later I'll want to install a radiant heat floor system. Again, as I suggested, go electrical hot water heater with a Grundfas pump. I used them in solar and they last forever. You can run solar later with this setup as a backup.
GrundFos was suggested and by checking the literature it answered most of my pesky questions and seems perfect.
Someone suggested CombiCor and I appreciate that post that is on subject. I like the idea of a unit that takes care of both heating and domestic hot water and purports to be energy efficient. What about in the summer, are there losses, energy and cost wise, when the heating is not necessary ? Compared to two separate units ?Yes you will have losses in any active resistance heating system as you know, it is the efficiency that is what to look at for the final heat bill and it certainly depends on how cold you get in NY. I live on the West Coast in Seattle and am from the California high country in the Sierras, so I know a litttle about warmer snow.:D
The suggestion of AquaPex gives me pause.It does me too. I use copper only to this day. Outgassing plastic does happen in long standing line water in spite of what the manufacturers say is safe. My wife and I are both allergic to most chemicals, especially my wife. Most plastics makes her throat close up. She cannot visit her parents, because of their new house. We also know of many people who are sick from their new houses. I appreciate my old organic house. I'm partial to staying with copper for potable water.As I do also.The savings in installling Pex is mostly in labor - I'll be installing the pipes myself. The radiant heat would have the pex buried so it should be ok...As long as it is separate from the drinking water. Another option is a good water filter system for the kitchen that works really well if you do have old pipes or plastic H2O lines as you probably do in the 400' deepwell Yardney piping.

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So how's your timbers coming along? :) nm