Ask Me Help Desk - Puppy potty

So... some of you know the struggles we have had with our pup Angel. She is such a sweetheart. I love her.

But after numerous expenses, stress, and so many other things I can't even begin to list, I wanted to get your opinion on this.

When she started having trouble potty training, we took her to the vet to make sure nothing was wrong. They did a physical check, and everything checked out fine.

So I am suspecting I am either dealing with a very stubborn dog, or a slow learner.

In November, we are moving to a house, so hopefully, with 100% full access to a doggy door, and her own backyard, it will be easier.

As of right now, we are kennel training. And when she is outside, she will sometimes pee. But never poop. And I stand out side with her for a LONG time. I will turn away and be 'uninterested' thinking maybe she is potty shy. But it does no good. Even after being outside for an hour, the SECOND she is back in her kennel, she poops and pees.

SO. Here is my question. I got an idea. I'm not sure if it's a new and ingenious idea, or if its something that's been done before lol.

I want to try an idea that came to me, that will be a long long long, and slow slow slow process. But hopefully it will help her understand, and get over her fear (I think its FEAR keeping her from pottying outside, she acts like she may be afriad, I'm not sure) and on top of that, it will make it easier on me as well.

I want to get a kitty litter pan, line it with a puppy pad, and put it in her kennel with her. She already uses the puppy pad, but has a tendency to miss, or get 'half on and half off' but with the litter pan, it will be more likely for her to keep it all in the one spot.

After a few weeks, once she has gotten used to that, we would try letting her be out of her kennel all day long, but keep the litter box where she can see it. And see if she will continue to use it, or if she will start going on the carpet again.

After she gets the hang of using the box while out and about in the house, a few weeks later we would move the box out to the back porch. Take her out on her leash, and stand by the box so she will use it.

And then move the box out to the yard.
And then just the puppy pad on the yard.
And then nothing.

Does this sound like it may work?
I know it seems like 'more trouble than its worth'
But this pup is almost a year old, and isn't any closer to not pooping or peeing inside.

And we live in Arizona :( or I would make her an outside pup. But its just TOO damn hot...

My cats and I vote no on the litter box.

When you take her outside to do her business, do you have a word or two that you always use consistently that means go potty? (or do you expect her to know what to do?)

Jennie, please read the posts on potty training in the dog forum.

I can tell you right now what you're doing wrong, just by reading this post. You're using puppy pads! Now you're thinking of using a cat litter box. This laziness will not get your puppy potty trained. It will only make matter worse.

So, I have a few questions and suggestions.

Questions first.

How often do you walk your dog?

How long are the walks?

How old is the dog?

How often do you take her out to potty?

Suggestions;

Get rid of the puppy pads! That's the main problem. This poor dog is confused. Do you want me to pee and poo in the house, or outside? A dog doesn't know pads from carpet, from lino, from hard wood. As long as you're training the dog to do its business inside, it will continue to do so.

The last sentence of your post makes me concerned. If it wasn't too hot you'd make her an outside dog? Why do you have a dog? That sentence alone disturbs me greatly. If it were another poster, I'd be a lot harsher right now. I will be nice because it's you. But, I will tell you what I would be saying if this were someone else. I'd be telling anyone else that posted what you did, to give the dog to someone that wants a dog, and can train it properly.

Jennie, your idea is horrible. You know me, I tell it like it is.

Either commit to being a dog owner, and train the dog properly, or find a new home for the dog before it gets too old.

That's my advice. Darnit, I tried not to be harsh, but Jennie, this is bad. Very bad. This dog deserves more, and you know me, the dog is my main concern.

No worries hon, I know you tell it like it is, I was counting on that :) you know me. My ideas come at a million miles an hour and I can never tell if they are good or bad ideas.

This is a lot so ill answer your questions in the quote.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alty

Jennie, please read the posts on potty training in the dog forum.

I can tell you right now what you're doing wrong, just by reading this post. You're using puppy pads! Now you're thinking of using a cat litter box. This laziness will not get your puppy potty trained. It will only make matter worse. I dont understand how it would be lazy, its a LOT of work. and the vet and the trainers are the ones who told me to use the puppy pads. thats why i got them

So, I have a few questions and suggestions.

Questions first.

How often do you walk your dog? Walks, she comes with me in the morning and evening for my walks (im trying to lose weight) and ayla takes her outside to play after lunch time.

How long are the walks? with me, i walk a circle of our townhouse for about an hour. ayla takes her out for about 30 minutes after lunch to play.

How old is the dog? she is almost 11 months old

How often do you take her out to potty? We go potty once an hour. the only exception is when she is left in her kennel over night at bedtime, and when i have to leave for errands like the grocery store and such.

Suggestions;

Get rid of the puppy pads! That's the main problem. This poor dog is confused. Do you want me to pee and poo in the house, or outside? A dog doesn't know pads from carpet, from lino, from hard wood. As long as you're training the dog to do its business inside, it will continue to do so. Ok, no more puppy pads. I thought thats what we were supposed to use.

The last sentence of your post makes me concerned. If it wasn't too hot you'd make her an outside dog? Why do you have a dog? That sentence alone disturbs me greatly. If it were another poster, I'd be a lot harsher right now. I will be nice because it's you. But, I will tell you what I would be saying if this were someone else. I'd be telling anyone else that posted what you did, to give the dog to someone that wants a dog, and can train it properly. I am very very confused by this...What is wrong with an outside dog? I am not saying she would be chained to the outside 24/7. I am saying if it wasnt so hot, she would be spending more of her day outside for longer periods of time until she got the potty training down. We DO want a dog. And i have been busting my for the last 10 months trying to potty train this dog. she is trained in every other way. she comes when called. she goes into her kennel on command. she can sit, lay down, roll over, and dance. I have tried EVERY SINGLE thing that the trainers, and websites, and books have told us. Before kennel training, we even tried bell training. And she never got it.
Im sorry Alty, but you are way off base here. The very fact that i am here asking for advice, when even the vet and trainers couldnt help me, is PROOF that i love and care for this dog and am doing EVERYTHING i can do help her learn to potty outside.

Jennie, your idea is horrible. You know me, I tell it like it is.

Either commit to being a dog owner, and train the dog properly, or find a new home for the dog before it gets too old. I came here for suggestions and advice. If you have some, that i have not already tried, PLEASE tell me what it is.

That's my advice. Darnit, I tried not to be harsh, but Jennie, this is bad. Very bad. This dog deserves more, and you know me, the dog is my main concern.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

My cats and I vote no on the litter box.

When you take her outside to do her business, do you have a word or two that you always use consistently that means go potty? (or do you expect her to know what to do?)

Lol WG it wouldn't be a 'litter' box. No litter :P

When we go outside for the bathroom we say 'lets go outside and go potty' then once outside we say 'go potty' in an excited voice.

You might be reading and getting TOO MUCH (conflicting?) information and suggestions. I swear by the advice given on this site (even though I have never had a dog). If I ever did get a dog (my cats vote no!), I would read the stickies religiously and ask the experts here about any quirky thing. In fact, I have been reading this dog board so long, I could probably manage a dog (the cats still vote no) and do pretty well with it.

You want the dog to go potty on command, not just whenever it wants to (like when loose outdoors in a fenced back yard). Listen to Alty and don't be offended. She knows her dogs and her poo (that doesn't sound right... hmmmm).

Oh no I wasn't offended. I hope she doesn't think I was. I'm grateful to her help, and I'm used to her straightforward way of telling.

I just wish I knew what I did so wrong that got HER upset and offended. I have tried everything the vet said. Everything the trainers said. And have gotten no where. I have read extensively on Angel, and she is a Pomapoo (Pomeranian/poodle) poodles are very smart, quick to learn and easy to train. But Pomeranian are difficult to train, and not as quick. And given Angels energy, poodles in general (according to the books) are more mellow. And Angel is NOT. She is hyper, excited, loves to play, even learned how to play tag with Ayla (and does it RIGHT lol) she seems to be taking after the Pomeranian almost 100% except for the fur :P (her coat is 100% poodle 'hair' thankfully )

What concerns me is she is a perfectly happy, energetic and playful pup. But when its time to go potty, she looks around and gets so so so shy and timid about it. Even when she does go potty outside, she looks ashamed of herself. And I have NEVER done the punishing or anything like that for potty. The worst I have done was when she got up on to my bed and squatted to pee and I said 'no angel' not yelling, but louder than talking.
The first little bit we had her, I did do the old way of doing it, and showed her mess to her and said no and took her outside. But I learned that was bad. And stopped doing that. But I've never spanked her.

I know I started bad with her training. But once I got the right information I DID use the right information. And its still not working. She has been kennel training since January, and she still thinks that her bed is an appropriate place to potty (thats one of the reasons we started using the pads, to prevent poop and pee mess all over her blankies and bed.

So I'm not even frustrated or upset about this anymore. I'm worried about her.

Is there an alpha in the house? Who is it?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wondergirl

Is there an alpha in the house? Who is it?

That would be me. I never allow Ayla to do any sort of training, as ayla is just another puppy to her (with the exception of if angel is playing and gets free with her nips, I told ayla to say OW loudly and walk away from her)

Issac is the play guy. They cuddle and play and such. He has never done any of the training. Although I wish he would.

But yeah, in all sense of the word, human and animal, I would be the 'big boss' of the house I suppose.

Does Angel know you are the alpha?

As far as I know she does. I mean, if I am getting on to ayla about something (omg the attitude at this age! ) angel will know, and lay her head down. But she doesn't seem to be cowering or anything. She just sort of lays down and looks at me and then If I look at her, she rolls over to show her belly. But isn't wagging her tail like she does when she wants a pat.

That is a sign of submissiveness isn't it?

Do you praise wildly and have a party when she goes potty when she is supposed to?

Yes. And she loves it :P she gets so excited that her whole butt wags and spins in fast circles, and I say "YAY GOOD GIRL" and we race back to the house and get a 'cookie' (she loves those dog bakery cookies lol)
Then she gets mad if I don't let her in her kennel fast enough so she can eat her cookie in bed. Lol.

And Ayla doesn't confuse her at any time with the potty stuff, maybe trying to imitate you?

Lots to go over here. Before I start, Jennie, I'm not upset with you. I am upset with your trainer, and your vet. You've gotten horrible advice, and professionals should know better. But, I don't really expect a lot from people that claim to be professionals anymore. My vet recently told me, when Rascal got hold of a chicken bone, that cottonballs are a big no no. When I asked her why, she didn't have an answer, so I asked her to read up on it. When she did, she was shocked, and admitted she was wrong. Her excuse "I've never had a dog". Um... you're a vet! You take care of my dogs! I trust you because you're supposed to know what you're doing! It's a bit scary that I know more than you do and I'm paying you hundreds of dollars a visit for your advice!

Having said that, I'll start by answering your first post to me.

Quote:

I don't understand how it would be lazy, it's a LOT of work. And the vet and the trainers are the ones who told me to use the puppy pads. That's why I got them

Puppy pads, paper training, is old school. Ask any of the people that have used this method and you'll find one thing they all have in common. They have a dog that uses the puppy pads, or paper, most of the time. But also has accidents. Why? A dog is a dog. A dog doesn't know the difference between a puppy pad, paper, carpet, lino, tile, or anything else in your house. The only thing that your puppy is learning is that it's okay to pee and poo in the house. That's what you're teaching your puppy.

You're confusing your pup even further by using puppy pads, and then trying to train it to go outside. Which is it mom. Either I'm supposed to pee inside, or outside. Make up your mind!

Quote:

with me, I walk a circle of our townhouse for about an hour. Ayla takes her out for about 30 minutes after lunch to play.

When are you doing the walking? Your puppy should be going for a walk after each meal. At 11 months of age she should be getting two meals a day, one in the morning, and one in the evening. You should be walking her for at least an hour around 20 minutes after her meal. The walking will urge her to poo. It will get things moving, so to speak. This is the best time to get her to do her thing.

Quote:

We go potty once an hour. The only exception is when she is left in her kennel over night at bedtime, and when I have to leave for errands like the grocery store and such.

When she has an accident, when does it normally happen? How long after she's eaten, or after a potty break?

Quote:

Ok, no more puppy pads. I thought that's what we were supposed to use.

You really need to read the dog threads on this site. The one thing you'll see over and over again is how horrible puppy pads are. Not one of the experts on this site recommends puppy pads. We all abhor them. They are the worst invention ever! People buy them because they seem easy. What they really do is confuse the dog, which leaves you with an 11 month old puppy that still isn't potty trained.

.

Quote:

What is wrong with an outside dog? I am not saying she would be chained to the outside 24/7. I am saying if it wasn't so hot, she would be spending more of her day outside for longer periods until she got the potty training down.

Dogs are pack animals. An outside dog is a lawn ornament, not a member of the family. If you want a lawn ornament, then buy one made of cement. Don't using a living breathing animal as a lawn ornament.

Spending more time outside won't help her get the potty training down. Training will. That means spending more time with her, not less.

Quote:

We DO want a dog. And I have been busting my for the last 10 months trying to potty train this dog.

Now I'm even more worried. She's 11 months old and you've had her for 10 months? She was 4 weeks old when you got her? I'm about to lose whatever patience I have left.

Quote:

she is trained in every other way. She comes when called. She goes into her kennel on command. She can sit, lay down, roll over, and dance. I have tried EVERY SINGLE thing that the trainers, and websites, and books have told us. Before kennel training, we even tried bell training. And she never got it.

The only way to train a dog is to be consistent. That means everyone in the house, not only you. Even Ayla has to train this dog. This isn't a one person job unless you live alone. If the entire pack isn't on board, consistent, then this dog is doomed.

Quote:

Im sorry Alty, but you are way off base here. The very fact that I am here asking for advice, when even the vet and trainers couldn't help me, is PROOF that I love and care for this dog and am doing EVERYTHING I can do help her learn to potty outside.

I'm sorry Jennie, but I don't agree. I'm not saying you don't love this dog, or want this dog. But loving it, and doing what's right for it, are two different things. If I had a penny for every poster that came here telling us how much they love their dog, that they would die for their dog, and then asking us to diagnose because they won't go to the vet, I'd be rich. We're talking about dogs with blisters and pus coming out of every part of their body, and instead of doing what's right for the dog they claim to love so much, they're here asking us to fix it.

One thing they have in common with you is that we can't fix it. We can give you advice, and we can tell you the truth, but you're the one that has to follow that advice.

Your dog may come, sit, dance. My 3 month old puppy does that as well. But, my 3 month old puppy is also 95% potty trained. He only has an accident once in a blue moon, and I have to say, all those times are my fault, not his. He's still a baby. When he asks to go out he has to go right away. Sometimes I miss the window. But who's to blame for that? Not him. Me. Until you take the responsibility for what's going on with your dog, you won't get anywhere.

Put down the books, and take your dog outside. Train her. Follow the steps we've outlined on this site time and time again. It's all here. All you have to do is read it, and then do it. But there is no half way here. You're either all in, or you have to accept a dog that's going to pee and poo in your house.

Quote:

I know I started bad with her training. But once I got the right information I DID use the right information. And its still not working. She has been kennel training since January, and she still thinks that her bed is an appropriate place to potty (thats one of the reasons we started using the pads, to prevent poop and pee mess all over her blankies and bed.

Case in point. Jennie, now that I've written the right way to train a puppy, and told you why puppy pads aren't okay, I'm going to see if you learned anything. Yes, this is a test.

Tell me why your dog pees and poos in her crate, now that you have the correct info.

If you get it wrong, I'm going to let WG have a guess. :)

Just think about what I said about puppy pads. The answer is in the info I gave.

..

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alty

Lots to go over here. Before I start, Jennie, I'm not upset with you. I am upset with your trainer, and your vet. You've gotten horrible advice, and professionals should know better. But, I don't really expect a lot from people that claim to be professionals anymore. My vet recently told me, when Rascal got hold of a chicken bone, that cottonballs are a big no no. When I asked her why, she didn't have an answer, so I asked her to read up on it. When she did, she was shocked, and admitted she was wrong. Her excuse "I've never had a dog". Um...you're a vet! You take care of my dogs! I trust you because you're supposed to know what you're doing! It's a bit scary that I know more than you do and I'm paying you hundreds of dollars a visit for your advice!

you are right. im realizing how much was wrong. and from what i understand, i was at the bottom of the chain anyway, using banfield pet hospital, and the trainers at petsmart.

Having said that, I'll start by answering your first post to me.

Puppy pads, paper training, is old school. Ask any of the people that have used this method and you'll find one thing they all have in common. They have a dog that uses the puppy pads, or paper, most of the time. But also has accidents. Why? A dog is a dog. A dog doesn't know the difference between a puppy pad, paper, carpet, lino, tile, or anything else in your house. The only thing that your puppy is learning is that it's okay to pee and poo in the house. That's what you're teaching your puppy.

You're confusing your pup even further by using puppy pads, and then trying to train it to go outside. Which is it mom. Either I'm supposed to pee inside, or outside. Make up your mind!

Ok, i will do away with the pads. Do we need to put anything on the floor of her kennel? or just clean it as it happens?

When are you doing the walking? Your puppy should be going for a walk after each meal. At 11 months of age she should be getting two meals a day, one in the morning, and one in the evening. You should be walking her for at least an hour around 20 minutes after her meal. The walking will urge her to poo. It will get things moving, so to speak. This is the best time to get her to do her thing.

She has been going out 30 minutes after eating. sometimes that works and sometimes it doesnt. its usually after eating that she DOES have a successful outside poop. we have been feeding her 3 times. the food bag is very vauge about when to switch to twice a day. it just says 'older' lol no age. so i was just continuing with the 3 times a day, and then once she turned a year old and switched to adult food i was gonna go to twice a day then. but i will go to twice a day now if you think i should. and as far as the walking, that is something elkse we are doing wrong. when i take her out in the morning after eating, she is doing my excersize walk with me, but in the afternoon, i let ayla take her out to potty and they normally just hang out in the grass. ill fix that. well no i wont need to. her morning and evening walks are right after her meal anyway, with her going to twice a day meals, she wont be eating at lunch time anymore.

When she has an accident, when does it normally happen? How long after she's eaten, or after a potty break? Its almost always after a potty break. sometimes over night pees, but no poops, and anytime she does have a poop accedent its ALWAYS after coming back in from a walk. no matter how long we walk, its like she holds it lol. thats part of whats frustrating, i know she isnt doing it on purpose, but it certainly seems like she is :P

You really need to read the dog threads on this site. The one thing you'll see over and over again is how horrible puppy pads are. Not one of the experts on this site recommends puppy pads. We all abhor them. They are the worst invention ever! People buy them because they seem easy. What they really do is confuse the dog, which leaves you with an 11 month old puppy that still isn't potty trained.
definately doing away with them. im glad its now too, we are about out and i havent gotten a new bag of them yet. so no more
.

Dogs are pack animals. An outside dog is a lawn ornament, not a member of the family. If you want a lawn ornament, then buy one made of cement. Don't using a living breathing animal as a lawn ornament.

Spending more time outside won't help her get the potty training down. Training will. That means spending more time with her, not less.
ok

Now I'm even more worried. She's 11 months old and you've had her for 10 months? She was 4 weeks old when you got her? I'm about to lose whatever patience I have left.

Im confused now. When we got her, we were told her birthday was august 5th. so she is 10.5 months old now. and she was 4 months old when we got her...christmas eve? or the day before christmas eve. so forget the november thing i said earlier. im losing my mind. im not sure where i got my numbers confused. but those are the months lol

The only way to train a dog is to be consistent. That means everyone in the house, not only you. Even Ayla has to train this dog. This isn't a one person job unless you live alone. If the entire pack isn't on board, consistent, then this dog is doomed.
same as before. i guess i was told wrong. i was always tld that there is ONE person in the family that trains. and children NEVER train because children are 'litter mates' to the dog.

I'm sorry Jennie, but I don't agree. I'm not saying you don't love this dog, or want this dog. But loving it, and doing what's right for it, are two different things. If I had a penny for every poster that came here telling us how much they love their dog, that they would die for their dog, and then asking us to diagnose because they won't go to the vet, I'd be rich. We're talking about dogs with blisters and pus coming out of every part of their body, and instead of doing what's right for the dog they claim to love so much, they're here asking us to fix it. Im really confused by this part. Angel saw a vet the very week we brought her home, and has had regular apointments to get her shots and to get her spayed, and we have had a few walk in visits. she has pet insurance and we use it. i would never not take a pet to the vet.

One thing they have in common with you is that we can't fix it. We can give you advice, and we can tell you the truth, but you're the one that has to follow that advice. thats what im trying to do

Your dog may come, sit, dance. My 3 month old puppy does that as well. But, my 3 month old puppy is also 95% potty trained. He only has an accident once in a blue moon, and I have to say, all those times are my fault, not his. He's still a baby. When he asks to go out he has to go right away. Sometimes I miss the window. But who's to blame for that? Not him. Me. Until you take the responsibility for what's going on with your dog, you won't get anywhere.

Put down the books, and take your dog outside. Train her. Follow the steps we've outlined on this site time and time again. It's all here. All you have to do is read it, and then do it. But there is no half way here. You're either all in, or you have to accept a dog that's going to pee and poo in your house.
ok

Jennie, you're going to have to start from scratch with her. Believe it or not, she has been trained, she just hasn't been trained to do the right thing. At this point you're going to have to train her stop doing what she's been trained to do, and teach her to do what you want her to do. Did that make any sense, or am I just babbling? ;) This is going to be a long process. You're going to have a tough road ahead.

Did I read right? Pet Smart trainers? Oh Jennie! You took your dog to people that don't even know the difference between a poodle and a terrier? Do you know what certification a Pet Smart trainer needs? They need to be human, over 16, and breathing. That's the only qualifications they need, and sadly, that's all they have.

The only time you should be going to a pet store is to buy food, toys, or leashes. Other then that, don't even make eye contact with the staff, and definitely never ask them for advice. Pet Smart does not hire professionals. They hire teens, and they pay minimum wage. No certified trainer would ever work there. You didn't get advice from a trainer at all. You got advice from someone that probably hasn't even ever owned a dog, much less trained one.

About the food. What are you feeding her? What's her weight? And how much are you feeding her per meal?

Im starting to figure that out. They are the ones in the beginning who told me to scold her for accidents. And I should have known better. I tried asking a question about my fish once, and I KNOW what I'm talking about with carp type pets (koi, goldfish) I kept koi, orandas, and syubunkin (my favs hehe) and I had 2 simple questions. 'where do you keep your chem tests' and 'my tank isn't cycling its bacteria buildup, what do you suggest' my first warning should have been when he told me 'you don't want bacteria in your fish tank'... 0.0 then I had some hope when he said he knows what I need for testing. He brought me to a bottle of strips. Now, strips are all well in good for quick tests when you don't have time. But you MUST have the drop tests. And I asked him about them and he just stared at me blankly...

Sorry I rambled.
So on we go.

She is eating purina puppy chow. She gets a cup 3 times a day (2 starting tomorrow lol) when she moves to dog food instead of puppy food, I'm contemplating getting her the dog food made special for mini breeds. She is tiny.

My best guess would be she is maybe 9 or 10 lbs. last time she was weighed was for her spaying and she was 8lbs. That was... a month and a half ago or so. (you know how great I am with dates lol) ill look in her health care folder.