I want to put a bathroom in the basement of my town home. There is a main cleanout in the floor at the front followed by a laundry drain, and two verticle stacks. I want to know if it is possible to build a subfloor 8" above the main cleanout, extend it up (with a new cleanout clover) to the new subfloor and branch off to a toilet/sink/shower under the floor. Can this be done or is it against code?

This is doable only if you replace the cleanout tee with a combination wye and eighth bend and vent the group,(see image) Depending upon the depth of the main you might still have to platform the group. Good luck, Tom

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Originally Posted by speedball1

This is doable only if you replace the cleanout tee with a combination wye and eighth bend and vent the group,(see image) Depending upon the depth of the main you might still have to platform the group. Good luck, Tom

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Thanks Tom

How do I see your image?

I'm attaching an image here to show what I want to do. Access for the clean out and backwater valve will be in the vanity.


John

It's the clean out tee that bothers me. It's not made to receive discharge from a bathroom, group. How did you plan to come off the threaded opening and convert to PVC? Why is there a check valve installed on the toilet? You show the toilet but not the sink or shower. Is there a reason for this? The sink and shower must also be vented why aren't they drawn in? You also have the toilet discharging directly into the vent. Does my layout make more sense? Back to you? Tom

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Originally Posted by speedball1

It's the clean out tee that bothers me. It's not made to receive discharge from a bathroom, group. How did you plan to come off the threaded opening and convert to PVC? Why is there a check valve installed on the toilet? You show the toilet but not the sink or shower. Is there a reason for this? The sink and shower must also be vented why aren't they drawn in? You also have the toilet discharging directly into the vent. Does my layout make more sense? Back to you? Tom

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Hi Tom

Sorry, I'm a bit artistically challenged. Your picture is much better. Right now, the clean out is just a cap on the floor (4" PVC ), I believe for access to the main sewer pipe. It is my understanding (please correct me if I'm wrong) that this is located there in compliance with the code:

708.3.5 Building drain and building sewer junction.

There shall be a cleanout near the junction of the building drain and the building sewer. The cleanout shall be either inside or outside the building wall and shall be brought up to the finished ground level or to the basement floor level. An approved two-way cleanout is allowed to be used at this location to serve as a required cleanout for both the building drain and building sewer. The cleanout at the junction of the building drain and building sewer shall not be required if the cleanout on a 3-inch (76 mm) or larger diameter soil stack is located within a developed length of 10 feet (3048 mm) of the building drain and building sewer connection. The minimum size of the cleanout at the junction of the building drain and building sewer shall comply with Section 708.7.

Ideally I'd like to thread a male adapter and extend the pipe to the new subfloor above or even to the side wall, also branching off at the same time to the toilet group (as your picture shows). However I still need a clean out as per code?

Sorry about not showing the sink/shower and proper venting. I'm just wondering if this floor clean out can be utilized in this fashion. This location would be ideal for a bathroom and if it could be done without busting the floor that would be even better.
Thanks
John

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

It's the clean out tee that bothers me. It's not made to receive discharge from a bathroom, group. How did you plan to come off the threaded opening and convert to PVC? Why is there a check valve installed on the toilet? You show the toilet but not the sink or shower. Is there a reason for this? The sink and shower must also be vented why aren't they drawn in? You also have the toilet discharging directly into the vent. Does my layout make more sense? Back to you? Tom

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Hi Tom
The backwater valve I believe is now required (or at least recommended) for basement bathrooms up here in Canada, this is why I put it in there.
John

Hi John...

I have a few thoughts here, OK?

First, I wanted to pop in and tell you that building a floor up will actually take about the same time it will take you to install plumbing pipes underground. Here, purchasing/picking up and installing the lumber and the plywood and building the step up into the bathroom takes about the same amount of time it does to rent a chipping hammer, dig out the floor, install plumbing and backfill and recement. I know it is hard to believe in some ways, but it is true. Don't forget about the funny step at the doorway or the headroom issues and just how the whole bathroom can seem offkilt.

I can point you to an entire thread by a poster named mechanickid that started as your thread is starting and he finally gave in and did it correctly and boy oh boy was he glad when he was done. Click on this link to see that thread... please read the entire thread to see how it ends and how we finally arrived atthe conclusion we did. He even posted pictures as he went along... including the result!

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/plumbi...om-252241.html

Review the thread by mechanickid and then pop back with your thoughts, OK?

Finally, have you looked at the SANIFLO systems where you install a macerator pump... no need to build the floor up exacept under the shower... ;) Click on this link for more info.:

Installation of pumps, grinders, and toilets for the home | SFA

Back to you...

Mark

Hey Mark,
Coming off a cleanout tee doesn't bother you? I think my inspector would be real unhappy. Regards,

John.

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The backwater valve I believe is now required (or at least recommended) for basement bathrooms up here in Canada,

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Makes sense to contain a backup. That takes care of the toilet. What about the floor drain? Cheers, Tom

Hi Tom

If you reread my post you'll see that I had so many other concerns that I never even addressed the cleanout issue, right?

For sure I don't like the idea of the cleanout, but I do have a couple ideas that might help regarding connecting into the cleanout depending on how John responds to my post... ;)

Mark

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Hi John...

I have a few thoughts here, OK?

First, I wanted to pop in and tell you that building a floor up will actually take about the same time it will take you to install plumbing pipes underground. Here, purchasing/picking up and installing the lumber and the plywood and building the step up into the bathroom takes about the same amount of time it does to rent a chipping hammer, dig out the floor, install plumbing and backfill and recement. I know it is hard to believe in some ways, but it is true. Don't forget about the funny step at the doorway or the headroom issues and just how the whole bathroom can seem offkilt.

I can point you to an entire thread by a poster named mechanickid that started out as your thread is starting and he finally gave in and did it correctly and boy oh boy was he glad when he was done. Click on this link to see that thread...please read the entire thread to see how it ends and how we finally arrived atthe conclusion we did. He even posted pictures as he went along...including the end result!!

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/plumbi...om-252241.html

Review the thread by mechanickid and then pop back with your thoughts, OK?

Finally, have you looked at the SANIFLO systems where you install a macerator pump...no need to build the floor up exacept under the shower...;) Click on this link for more info.:

Installation of pumps, grinders, and toilets for the home | SFA

Back to you...

Mark

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Hi Mark

Thanks for all the advice. I have examined the options you have given. The basement is completely unfinished at this point and has a very high ceiling (over 8 ft). The space is completely open ~25' x 18' and it is my intention to put subfloor in the entire space. The space for the bathroom is just at the bottom of the stairs and it would be straight forward to raise the subfloor to the last step (create a landing area - see pic). Since I'm going to put a subfloor in anyway, I'd rather not do both. Also my wife is very sensitive to dust of any kind and the macerating toilet is not high on her list of options (see prefers the cement cutting)

Once again thanks for your help.

John

Hi John

Remove the cleanout cover and see if you can tell if the fitting it is in goes in a WYE direction with the flow of the drain or is the pipe going straight down?

Also, is that cleanout fitting caulked in using a poured lead joint?

Back to you...

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I do have a couple ideas that might help regarding connecting into the cleanout

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I'm surprised that you would even consider adapting a clean out to receive the discharge from a bathroom group. Drainage systems depend on gravity and flow. Sanitary tees, combinations all have a bend in the throat to direct the flow. A cleanout/test tee has none. The discharge any bend to direct the flow, That's why I' ragging you about the cleanout tee. That's the first thing I picked up on. And your thoughts? Have yourself a great week end, Tom.

Hi Tom

John shows and stated that the cleanout is FLUSH with the cement floor. In cases like these there may be a wye fitting under the cleanout. If the fitting the flush cleanout is in is a wye he could drill out the cleanout fitting and install a new tee and cleanout on top of that. Not ideal, but it would work!

You're correct but that wasn't what John wanted to do and that was to come directly off the cleanout and that just stuck in my craw, If the cleanout's on a raiser from a combo, (a wye wouldn't put it flush with the floor}. I realize you're giving John 6the easiest way out but I'd forget about platforming the group. And take up the slab and do the job by the book. Cheers, Tom

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Hi John

Remove the cleanout cover and see if you can tell if the fitting it is in goes in a WYE direction with the flow of the drain or is the pipe going straight down?

Also, is that cleanout fitting caulked in using a poured lead joint?

Back to you...

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Here a couple pictures. Looks like it goes to a WYE. Now think it maybe access as in the Canadian National Code (pic attached). This is not the original cap as I replaced the old one which was cracked (it was flush to the floor).

Is possible to use this? There seems to be some debate.

John

And isn't that exactly what I said when at post #7 I said,"First, I wanted to pop in and tell you that building a floor up will actually take about the same time it will take you to install plumbing pipes underground. Here, purchasing/picking up and installing the lumber and the plywood and building the step up into the bathroom takes about the same amount of time it does to rent a chipping hammer, dig out the floor, install plumbing and backfill and recement. I know it is hard to believe in some ways, but it is true. Don't forget about the funny step at the doorway or the headroom issues and just how the whole bathroom can seem offkilt."..?

John was clear after that and said that wasn't an option here so I asked questions and have been waiting for his response.

John, I see that you present diagrams with the two cleanouts... The top diagram shows one cleanout on a combo wye and the next cleanout at the building trap. Do you have two cleanouts side by side as in the diagrams you threw up? If so, then this combo wye cleanout cannot be used to connect your drainage in it as Canada code appears to want the house drains connected before the house trap and drainage that goes out to the sewer system. This means you need to chip out the floor if you want to do the bath drains/vents by code.

If you do not have two cleanouts side by side then you are missing the house trap and that suggests that it may no longer be needed. In this case, if you could find a threaded adapter that will thread into that cleanout then it seems to me that you can connect into the drain as long as you install a cleanout directly over the top of the sanitary tee you use to pick up the bathroom group.

Do not forget to vent all fixtures as required by local codes.

Anything to add Tom?

Back to you...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

And isn't that exactly what I said when at post #7 I said,"First, I wanted to pop in and tell you that building a floor up will actually take about the same time it will take you to install plumbing pipes underground. Here, purchasing/picking up and installing the lumber and the plywood and building the step up into the bathroom takes about the same amount of time it does to rent a chipping hammer, dig out the floor, install plumbing and backfill and recement. I know it is hard to believe in some ways, but it is true. Don't forget about the funny step at the doorway or the headroom issues and just how the whole bathroom can seem offkilt."...??

John was clear after that and said that wasn't an option here so I asked questions and have been waiting for his response.

John, I see that you present diagrams with the two cleanouts...The top diagram shows one cleanout on a combo wye and the next cleanout at the building trap. Do you have two cleanouts side by side as in the diagrams you threw up? If so, then this combo wye cleanout cannot be used to connect your drainage in it as Canada code appears to want the house drains connected before the house trap and drainage that goes out to the sewer system. This means you need to chip out the floor if you want to do the bath drains/vents by code.

If you do not have two cleanouts side by side then you are missing the house trap and that suggests that it may no longer be needed. In this case, if you could find a threaded adapter that will thread into that cleanout then it seems to me that you can connect into the drain as long as you install a cleanout directly over the top of the sanitary tee you use to pick up the bathroom group.

Do not forget to vent all fixtures as required by local codes.

Anything to add Tom?

Back to you...

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Hi Mark

There is only one clean out. I believe the trap is just after this connection (hard to see in the photo) also there is no strong smell and so must be a trap before the street sewer. I just copied the figure from the code. It's not exactly my situation, there is only the one clean out.

This strategy you give is exactly what I had initially proposed (my initial drawing), thanks -next time I'll endeavor to draw larger and clearer. It only limits me to locating the vanity over the CO to hide it from plain view. I was wondering either option I show below would work. #2 would give me more room for slope as I believe this would only measure about 5-6" off the floor and would allow more flexibility in where I locate the clean out.

I will vent to the laundry stack, which I believe is tied into the main vent stack in the attic.

Regards,
John

Hi John...

#1 is the best option especially if you get a STREET sanitary tee fitting (se image). Plumbing code will want that cleanout to be on top of the sanitary tee... doesn't want the 90 degree turn to intefere with snaking the drain, OK?

Please wait to see what Tom has to say on this, too, OK?

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Originally Posted by massplumber2008

Hi John...

#1 is the best option especially if you get a STREET sanitary tee fitting (se image). Plumbing code will want that cleanout to be on top of the sanitary tee...doesn't want the 90 degree turn to intefere with snaking the drain, OK?

Please wait to see what Tom has to say on this, too, OK?

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Yes I see what you mean, I would need to extend it anyway because of the sub floor, or have an access panel in the floor. I 'll wait for Toms input, Thanks Mark.

Hi Tom and Mark

Here's a layout of what I'd like to do. Since there is a turn at the bottom of the stair well, it only seems natural the a landing area the height of the last step can be made, and since I wish to place a sub floor in anyway (a 2" raised sub floor will be place in the rest of the space), seems like a good idea... I'll just need to run it by the city here for the permit. I also have a friend who flips and builds houses so I'll run it past him as well - he has more experience with city permits. Unfortunately he's out of town right now.

John