I have a question about contracts..

I responded to an ad on line for a St Bernard Puppy. It was $350 from a small family breeder in CO about 90 miles from me. I noticed ads for two other litters he had. The caption was PUPPIES IN TIME FOR CHRISTMAS. After speaking and getting an understanding via email on November 14th that we would be reserved a female puppy when born. He had told me on the phone that the puppies would be born in a week or two. To reserve the puppy I had to send in a nonrefundable deposit of $350 (which was the total price) via certified funds overnight for him to receive the next business day. He said the puppies would be available for pick up right after the Christmas holiday. We paid the deposit as agreed and he confirmed he got the funds on November 21st.

I have emailed him weekly and then daily about when the puppies are born. He has kept responding "there is no success yet, will follow up with you when there is. These things are tricky". I told my three special needs kids at Christmas. We are now 45 days afterwards and I spoke to a vet and called around and found out his own vet and they were unaware of any puppies. I cornered him in email today (1.3.2012) and he responded "I should have news in a few days". Then I wrote a stern email that I spoke to several vets today and there is no way that the litter would be over 30 days late as gestation is only 63 days or so. He said " I will have news in a few days". I then told him that I felt he had breached our agreement and I needed his vets name and phone number to verify pregnancy dates by tomorrow. He then wrote me an email about the litter dying and they have not been able to deal with it and tell me yet. He hoped this "cleared up any confusion" and since the deposit was "non refundable" he was not obligated to give it to me, but was open to discuss it.

I am furious. I am not even sure the mother ever had a litter and I gave him at least 10 opportunities to tell me BEFORE giving a picture of it to my special needs adopted kids for Christmas.

I wrote him an email stating I wanted the money mailed tomorrow ($350) or I would contact authorities. He write back saying he will not be threatened like that and will be contacting his lawyer tomorrow.

I told him that was fine, his lawyer would tell him to give it back.

Anyway, any advice on getting my money back. Was I the only sucker that sent him money for a (most likely) nonexistent litter? I have to find another dog... my kids are crushed.

I'm sorry to hear how you apparently got swindled. Someone who knows legalities here will advise you as to what you can do to possibly get your money back. Meanwhile, please rescue a dog--go to your local animal shelter and save a sweet dog from death.

I cannot get a cross breed from the shelter as I have in the past. I have a child with emotional disabilities that require an extremely calm and good nature dog. I have one St Bernard and do not feel I can mix breeds with him. The current St Bernard is exactly the nature we need in a new puppy and 2nd dog.

You don't wait any longer, the deposit would be non refundable if you were not to buy the dog. He has to refund it, if he can not deliver.

Is it possible that there are not even any dogs ? Do you have a physcial address where he is at.
If there were not even dogs to start with, this is fraud and criminal. If there were dogs, then you sue him in court.

You had to pay over night, demand the same, if not done, sue him and report it to the police for possible online fraud.

Hello k:

The Padre is right... Call the cops and SUE him in small claims court. It's quick, cheap and easy.. Yes, you'll have to file in the jurisdiction where HE lives...

excon

Sleeping on it, have you called and ever talked to them on the phone? Do you actually know they live there
Some people post on craigs list for all sorts of towns, People from Ghana post on Craigs list in Atlanta and want you to send money western union. They act like it is going here in Atlanta but it is really going to Ghana.

So how did you send the money to them. By over night letter ?

Yes, I had called his vet prior to confronting him about the condition of the dogs. I called 4 vets in his area and was able to get his vet. They had not seen the dogs since 2010 and they were the vets on his previous litters. They also provided his street address (I only had a PO Box) and validated the phone number.

He lives in a small town. We sent a money order via priority mail. He sent me a confirmation email after receiving it (after hounding me 3 times in the same day the Friday before asking if I had sent it via overnight yet).

He has sent me over 50 emails telling me he is going to sue me for slander if I contact authorities. When asked why he deceived me about the condition of the dogs until last night and questions about when the puppies died, he said he would not provide any more information because "my attitude was accusatory". He will not pat the amount until "my lawyer calls his lawyer" and they "hash it out" because he "was in the right".

I am going to call the local police department. He had these ads on about 10 websites over varying dates over the past month. There has got to be more than my family in this situation. I am also concerned about finding another puppy. My kids are devastated as they got this for Christmas. This was to serve as a "therapy" dog for my newly adopted Aspergers son. The only breeders I can find sell top quality, show level breeders that are charging over 1K.

Can I sue in small claims for the cost to travel down there, my time at work missed, and the filing fee? This could get over $500 in collection costs. I also have to find another puppy and potentially travel a distance to get it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kanderson1031

Can I sue in small claims for the cost to travel down there, my time at work missed, and the filing fee? This could get over $500 in collection costs. I also have to find another puppy and potentially travel a distance to get it.

---

Hello again, k:

Sue for everything you're out. The judge will give it to you or he won't.. Time off work PROBABLY won't be compensated, and the cost to find a NEW dog won't be either..

It doesn't matter what he SAYS. Crooks always have something cool to say.

Your FIRST clue, however, should have been the term "NON REFUNDABLE DEPOSIT"! A deposit IS refundable.. That's what makes it a DEPOSIT. If it were payment in advance, which is what it was, he should have said so, and you should have been able to figure it out what it was. I know you were doing the best you could for your kids... But, for ME, I shop Amazon online and NOBODY else. When I buy from LOCAL people it's CASH and CARRY. I would NEVER send money based on an internet ad. NEVER.

excon

I had researched them before I sent the money. They had two litters in 2008 and 2009, they ran a "ministry" around St Bernard service dogs in 2009, and their ad on the breeder sites were common and comparable to other breeder ads we had seen.

We looked up their name and phone number before sending money and it was verified to be theirs. Unbelievable behavior. It seems like a "fly by night" scam, but the people are established in the community and respond back to me constantly.

Hello again, k:

Internet scammers are GOOD. You BELIEVE you did enough due diligence. I don't. Given this experience, I hope you take my advice. When dealing with LOCAL businesses, NO cash leaves my hand WITHOUT having received my merchandise first.

excon

I also responded to this ad on EBay Classifieds, live in Colorado and did some research before I contacted the seller. I sent a $50 dollar deposit and had basically the same run around experience when contacting him. I received the "puppies died" e-mail today and have not heard from him since requesting my deposit be returned. Isn't accepting money through the mail for items not delivered mail fraud? I also plan to contact the police and file a fraud report with the Post Office. One site I found of the same ad had over two thousand visits. Wonder how many deposits he collected?

Thanks Gypsy101

I spoke to the DA in LaJunta and they were quite concerned. They suggested I file a report with the police department and give them the emails (I have over 91 emails of correspondence). The DA's office can then investigate from there. I have been desperately trying to replace the puppy for my children and several of the Saint Bernard breeders told me they had been called today by people who had a puppy "fall through" in Rocky Ford. I am sure it is all the same situation. He may have taken 100s of deposits. Ours was $350 because we wanted a female.

Did he mention paying it back? He argued with me on email about my "rude attitude" (ie insisting his payment by Monday) until 2am. He called me a "bully".

Did he give you a date the puppies died? He refuses to give me an answer because "He already answered that?". The only issue is it was all on email, and he never answered it. I suspect either his dog was never pregnant or they were lost early. Several breeders told me today it is extremely rare to lose an entire litter unless the mother was extremely sick and they would know it. We contacted their vet and he has not seen the dogs for 18 months and was unaware of any new litters or pregnancy. Please contact me at <email address removed> and we can coordinate.

I had not thought of mail fraud... that is a great idea.

I will contact you tomorrow after work. He did not give me any details and has not responded to my e-mail earlier tonight. I have several e-mails that contain the same wording yours did "hoping for success soon". I plan on calling the D.A. in LaJunta tomorrow and will contact you as soon as I can. Hopefully some of his other victims will search "St. Bernard Puppies in time for Christmas Fraud" like I did and find this site!

Gypsy101

The DA Office will need you to file a report with the Rocky Ford Police department. They said they cannot take it over until that is done. I think the more reports they get on the breeder, the more it will be expedited.

Has anyone contacted the American Kennel Club? I know they can - but don't know if they do - take action in some cases of fraud.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kanderson1031

...
Can I sue in small claims for the cost to travel down there, my time at work missed, and the filing fee? This could get over $500 in collection costs. I also have to find another puppy and potentially travel a distance to get it.

---

I doubt you can get the cost of travel and lost work. Not in small claims, anyway. But you would certainly be awarded your filing fee, should you prevail.

If an equivalent puppy costs more than what he agreed to, you would be entitled to recover the extra. Did he agree to deliver the pup to you as a part of his price? If so, you would be entitled to your reasonable travel expense.

I filed a report and in speaking to the officers in his city, it appears they are going to charge him with CO Statute 18-5-301 which is something like "Fraud in effecting sales". Regardless if the dog was pregnant, there are four different ways to show he misrepresented either the 1) sales ad 2) the condition of the litter 3) the existence of a litter 4) pregnancy timeline (which then he also misrepresented one of the other three) so they felt the conditions fit.

If convicted, I guess I am entitled to treble damages which seem allowed in small claims in CO (in what I have read)as well as court costs. I will worry about this later, I have some time on that. One breeder had another call yesterday form another victim. There could be significant damages.

He still after all of this time, will not tell me when the puppies died. According to him they "did not make it". I was able to forward all information and I have an officer handling it.

I can relate a bit to this person's issue and would appreciate any comments my current circumstances:

I called a breeder in October of 2011 and wanted to put a deposit on a malamute puppy due in the spring of 2012. The breeder said that she also had a litter due in November so I had the choice of which litter I preferred. I talked to my husband and we decided the November litter would be great timing. I sent a $100 deposit to be on the waiting list. Well there were no puppies in November, the dam was not actually pregnant. There were no litters in the spring; although between December and July there were 5 occasions that she thought one of the females might be in heat or expecting. Each time my hopes of a puppy were raised and then dashed when puppies were not born. In November of this year I received an email saying they had recently bred one of the females and to expect puppies in about 7 weeks. It’s been 9 weeks to date and no puppies or any further information from the breeder. I have not contacted her this time because I just wanted to see how long it would take her to contact me. In the past, I was extremely excited and would ask for updates as time went along. Now I want to just get my money back after too many false hopes. There is no signed contract other than an email stating there is a $100 deposit required to be on the waiting list; it is non-refundable but does go toward the purchase of the pup. I think this is a little ridiculous by now.

By the way, I did visit this breeder and see her animals shortly after sending the deposit.

Do others agree that I have grounds for asking for my deposit back?

The contract says you paid $100, non refundable, to be placed on a waiting list to purchase a puppy. If/when you purchase a puppy that $100 goes toward the purchase price.

I don't see any grounds for you to get a refund. There are no guaranteed dates. That deposit is good until the end of time. I don't see that the breeder broke contract.

So, no, I don't agree with you legally. Morally, yes, but legally, no.

I work in rescue. Did you put down the deposit without looking into the reputation of the breeder and the dogs? Anyone with a unneutered/unspayed dog can call himself/herself a breeder. I've seen horrific conditions.