At last a voice of sanity on Climate Change. Whilst the content of this article is discussing local conditions it has a message for the climate change debate everywhere. We are focusing our efforts on the wrong objectives
More storms on the way unless we learn to manage the land
For those who don't have any efforts this debate is irrelevant and an annoyance, I know, but don't forget what we do today, you will do tomorrow. And by the way, you are just as affected by the southern oscillation as we are

I don't hear him saying that global warming is a con, but that he thinks landscaping is more immediate, and there are cons designed to cash in on all commercial Green Thingies.
A very slight increase of temperature from west to east in the US has meant the rapid demise of the northern white pine, a tree that always lived for a few hundred years without much threat. A bug now thrives and moves in, chomp.
There is a very real consequence of global warming visible from satellites: lack of mountain snow, river water for at least half the world. They will die of thirst and disease from standing water long before Water World hits.

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Originally Posted by joypulv

I don't hear him saying that global warming is a con, but that he thinks landscaping is more immediate, and there are cons designed to cash in on all commercial Green Thingies.
A very slight increase of temperature from west to east in the US has meant the rapid demise of the northern white pine, a tree that always lived for a few hundred years without much threat. A bug now thrives and moves in, chomp.
There is a very real consequence of global warming visible from satellites: lack of mountain snow, river water for at least half the world. They will die of thirst and disease from standing water long before Water World hits.

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He actually said the global warming industry is a con. What he means of course is the market based approach will only do what it can make a profit out of. Global warming was invented by British PM Margaret Thatcher as a ploy to get nuclear reactors built and so was a political con from the start. Obviously the environmentalists thought it was a great idea and so we have had thirty years of debate which as gotten us exactly nowhere.

Have you though that the pine trees might actually be dying because someone cut down the vast forests and turned them into agricultural land and not because of the universal excuse Global Warming or ACC. The loss of forestation world wide in the past two centuries of industralisation and population growth is what has contributed to the change, not only has CO2 output increased but CO2 locked up for centuries has been realised. A statistic being quoted by some enterprising advertiser locally suggests that it takes 549,000 new rees to replace one mature tree in absorbing CO2. While I think the case to be a little overstated, there can be no doubt that the major contributor to rising CO2 is deforestation and reforestation is the one positive method we have for controlling omissions

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have you though that the pine trees might actually be dying because someone cut down the vast forests and turned them into agricultural land and not because of the universal excuse Global Warming or ACC.

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Deforestation may be a fact elsewhere. But in the US we have grown our forests lands. This makes us a carbon sink with a caveat. We do not do effective forest management . As the trees age they add to the carbon dioxide in the atmosphere. That brings us back to effective forest management which includes controlled logging and managed burns.

Perhaps if there was some forest thinning then the beetles wouldn't thrive . In a perfect world they feed on older and weaker trees and not on healthy and young. But we don't allow forest thinning these days.

I'm not disputing the contention that climate changes are a factor in the growth of the beetle population . My opinion is that it is still an open question if there is significant human causation. Climate change has happened throughout global history ;with fluctuations between ice ages and thaws . Human history is only a blip on this timeline so we tend to view it from a very small prism.

I completely agree with Peter Andrews . I would say without reservations that the biggest reason for the flooding we have seen this year in the North East was landscaping without mitigation measures like retention ponds for run off . There is no place for the water to go . Street drains flow into rivers instead of replenishing ground water . Just in my neighborhood alone the building of a couple extra homes on the block without proper planning for the runoff causes floods on properties downhill.

I don't see why warming and landscape mismanagement are mutually exclusive. I don't see a need to ditch one argument for the other. I still think half the human populations is going to die of thirst before any other major change kills them off. Snow cap pictures from space don't lie and are so direct. And they have nothing to do with where we are in the ice age.

Of course the size of glaciers depend on where we are in the ice age. The last one of any note ,the "Little Ice Age" advanced glaciers by 1 to 2 kilometers in the Rockies, damaging trees ,many of which are still alive providing vivid evidence of the advance. If they advance during cool cycles then why wouldn't they retreat during warming ?

We are getting off subject which is that what we have now, the selling of the green industries is a gaint con

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I still think half the human populations is going to die of thirst before any other major change kills them off.

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I don't think so . But I do think that population control efforts worldwide will severely impact the human population. Here in the US alone we wacked almost 330,000 babies just in Planned Parenthood last year (not to mention the number of pregnencies ended by them utilizing the so called 'Morning After Pill". )

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Originally Posted by paraclete

We are getting off subject which is that what we have now, the selling of the green industries is a gaint con

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Of course it is . The conspiracy began with the AGW scientists acting as pointmen in the scam.

Here is some recent testimony from University of Ottawa Professor of Earth Sciences Dr. Ian Clark to the Canadian Senate Standing Committee on Energy, the Environment and Natural Resources :
We have not really seen any global warming for the past 10 years. … This is in stark contrast with the IPCC forecast of an increase of some 0.2 degrees per decade.

Clark explained that 20th century warming is merely one of a series of warm periods in the last 10,000 years. During these intervals, carbon dioxide was relatively steady.

Clark said that in the last 500 million years there was no correlation between temperature and CO2. He explained that water vapor is in fact responsible for the majority of the greenhouse effect. Clark also promoted the theory that the Sun, not CO2, is driving climate change.

Jan Veizer ,Distinguished professor Earth Sciences ,also spoke at the hearing .
He said ,Many people think the science of climate change is settled. It is not. … [The Sun] drives the water cycle; the water cycle then generates climate, and climate decides how much jungle, how much tundra and so on we will have, and therefore drives around the carbon cycle. … The sun also warms the oceans that emit CO2 into the atmosphere. Atmospheric CO2 is thus the product and not the cause of the climate.

Guelph University Professor of Economics Dr. Ross McKitrick got to the heart of the matter .
The so-called Climategate emails confirmed the reality of bias and cronyism in the IPCC process. … IPCC Assessments are guaranteed merely to repeat and reinforce a set of foregone conclusions that make up the party line.

Climate realists testify before the Canadian Senate - YouTube

The whole premise is a fraud ,and politicians looking to exploit it for what it's worth have combined their private investments with making public policy based on the fraud .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Clark said that in the last 500 million years there was no correlation between temperature and CO2. He explained that water vapor is in fact responsible for the majority of the greenhouse effect. Clark also promoted the theory that the Sun, not CO2, is driving climate change.

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Interesting. So there is no correlation between CO2 and temperature?
I would have thought that was obvious. It would be very difficult, if not impossible to establish any sort of casual relationship in such a complex and interconnected system as our climate. Yet, within this complex system he finds some sort of direct relationship between the sun and climate change.

Quite rightly, having dismissed Co2 and climate change as a suspect casual relationship he then proceeds to promote his own spurious relationship.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Jan Veizer ,Distinguished professor Earth Sciences ,also spoke at the hearing .
He said ,Many people think the science of climate change is settled. It is not. … [The Sun] drives the water cycle; the water cycle then generates climate, and climate decides how much jungle, how much tundra and so on we will have, and therefore drives around the carbon cycle. … The sun also warms the oceans that emit CO2 into the atmosphere. Atmospheric CO2 is thus the product and not the cause of the climate.

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"Atmospheric CO2 is thus the product and not the cause of climate change' . Similar argument similar criticism from me.

It is probably true that water vapor is far more responsible for climate change than CO2. But it is impossible to claim that the Sun is the cause of all change. Co2 may well be causing an increase in water vapor. On that basis CO2 would then count as an indirect casual relationship towards climate change. No one can rule out that possibility.

These scientists point out spurious relationships established by the pro- climate change scientists but then come up with their own claim to knowledge of casual relationships.

Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

These scientists point out spurious relationships established by the pro- climate change scientists but then come up with their own claim to knowledge of casual relationships.

Tut

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I think all we can truly say is the science is far from settled. What we have are general indications that there might be relationships. I would like to know, outside the poles, where this place is that is showing consistently rising temperatures, because it certainly isn't here. But the science surrounding the renewables industries is even more open. We went a little mad here a couple of years ago and subsidised solar installations, what we are now being told is that recent rises in electricity pricing are the result of the feeding tarriffs established then. So once again the climate change debate has shot us in the foot and we are being forced to pay for implementation of Green policy, heaven help us when the impact of the carbon tax hits home

I would say that there is more 'science 'supporting their hypothesis, That being said... I heard not one of them make the claim that their hypothesis closes the book on the science ,that the science is "settled " ; and that public policy should be made based on their conclusions.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I would say that their is more 'science 'supporting their hypothesis, That being said ...I heard not one of them make the claim that their hypothesis closes the book on the science ,that the science is "settled " ; and that public policy should be made based on their conclusions.

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Tom you know these concerned scientists have been calling for action. What action short of dismantling our civilisation I am unsure about. Even if we stop all CO2 production immediately, the rise in temperature is predicted to continue for a century. Public policy has been made based on their conclusions in a number of places, and even in a place like the USA which ignores the world agreements there are policies which respond to the hypothesis. I am reminded of the Scripture which says the fool says eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die

I think we have done very well staving off another ice age and our efforts may well be rewarded

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I would say that their is more 'science 'supporting their hypothesis, That being said ...I heard not one of them make the claim that their hypothesis closes the book on the science ,that the science is "settled " ; and that public policy should be made based on their conclusions.

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Hi Tom,

Again, I think it is extremely difficult to establish the science on both sides of the debate. Humans are probably having some type of impact on climate.

The point I was making is that you can't use specious causation to beat pro- climate scientists over the head and then proceed to set up your own spurious relationship.

I would say the politics is settled not the science.


Tut

Yes Tut the true believers are worshiping at the altar. They will sacrifice whole economies before they are checked.

And the politics is backed with a hypothesis that is supported with ,what the Climategate emails prove, is fraudulent and manipulated data.
No one has challenged the data of those who theorize solar activity (sun spot maximums and minimums ),watervapor being the primary greenhouse gas resposible , oceanic occilations ,or even normal cycles of warming and cooling as the causes of climate change.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

and the politics is backed with a hypothesis that is supported with ,what the Climategate emails prove, is fraudulent and manipulated data.

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Well, that's the nature of politics. The anti-climate change lobby needs to exploit the politics as well.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

No one has challenged the data of those who theorize solar activity (sun spot maximums and minimums ),watervapor being the primary greenhouse gas resposible , oceanic occilations ,or even normal cycles of warming and cooling as the causes of climate change.

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I would say that no one has challenged the data because there is a realization that these natural occurrences obviously account for climate change in the short term.

The issue is long term climate change as in a steady increase in CO2 over a few hundred years. The occurrences you mention only account for short term changes. Keeping in mind I am talking in relative terms.

Tut

But that isn't the argument... AGW advocates say that this is a direct result of human caused CO2 emissions since the industrial revolution.(the Mann hockey stick graph)
The AGW group could only make this case when they leveled out the data on the graph to make it appear that the Medieval Warming period did not happen .
During this period glaciers were much smaller than today and human populations thrived in areas that are glacier covered today. (proof of this is the vegitation that has been uncovered since new glacier retreat date back to the Middle Ages... and Viking burial grounds have been found beneath the perma-frost) .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

But that isn't the argument ... AGW advocates say that this is a direct result of human caused CO2 emissions since the industrial revolution.(the Mann hockey stick graph)
The AGW group could only make this case when they leveled out the data on the graph to make it appear that the Medieval Warming period did not happen .
During this period glaciers were much smaller than today and human populations thrived in areas that are glacier covered today. (proof of this is the vegitation that has been uncovered since new glacier retreat date back to the Middle Ages...and Viking burial grounds have been found beneath the perma-frost) .

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Hi Tom,

So you are saying that because there were other 'natural' periods of warming in earth's past this warming period must also be the result of 'natural' processes and NOT Co2 emissions?

I would think this claim would be extraordinarily difficult to prove. I'm not saying it is wrong just difficult to prove. As I said short term explanations for climate change, e.g. sun spots etc would not be of any help here.

Tut

Why do we have to prove the negative. Simple observation tells us that CO2 isn't the only factor