The northern European countries have always been an enviable example of advanced society.

However, a phenomenon that has marked the editorial world in recent years is the boom in thye Western world of the Scandinavian “black” novel.

Many black novels published in recent years by Swedish, Norwegian, Finnish, and Icelandic authors, who have had a great editorial success, reflect, yet, a deep concern and extreme feelings that something is going quite wrong.

Authors such as Mankell and his detective Wallander or Stieg Larson, and his world of hackers, journalists, murderers and sadists of all kinds, reflect in their novels the same evil which, in a terrible manner, has appeared last Friday in Oslo and Utoya, leaving behind more than 90 murdered youngsters.

Curiously enough, the modern Norwegian writer Nesbo already staged an attack from a extreme right party in his novel “Rodstrupe”, or “the Redbreast”, in English.

A character like the murderer Anders Behring Breivik could have appeared in many of these black novels.

One of the worrying phenomenon that has occurred in recent years in that corner of Europe is the upsurge of the extreme right parties. Phenomenon that gradually, is spreading toward the rest of Western Europe.

A few days ago the German government has been forced to remove from his tomb Rudolf Hess’ remains and cremate them by scattering the ashes at sea. The intention being that this would stop the demonstrations by neo-Nazi groups around the anniversary of Hess’ death.

Anders Behring Breivik and his extreme -right define themselves as anti-Islamic, xenophobic, racist, but, at the same time, as "Christian" and "environmentalist".
They consider themselves superior to the rest of mankind. That is, just like the Aryan superiority dream Hitler shared with his Nazi followers.

It seems that ABB has written in some sort of diary appeared in the Net, that the entire Islam are just assassins, and they all should have to die by the hands of the knights of the new Order of the Temple he wants to create all over Europe. They would also be responsible for expelling all immigrants to their own respective countries…

That is, Europe for the Europeans…!

It strikes me as absolutely incredible that these people can define themselves as Christians when, in fact, are more ferocious and violent than the fiercest fiends.

Where do they place the commandment "love thy neighbor as yourself"?

And it is even more amazing that these bigots, typical example of the most radical bigotry, are probably attending with their families the Sunday services of their parishes.

Are we going toward some sort of European KKK that loved to use the Cross to kill their victims?

God forbid!
Gromitt82

First you start by a very incorrect statement, thus I did not read the rest


The northern European countries have always been an enviable example of advanced society.

I would challenge that the culture and society of the east is much more advanced.

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

First you start by a very incorrect statement, thus I did not read the rest


The northern European countries have always been an enviable example of advanced society.

I would challenge that the culture and society of the east is much more advanced.

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Though I highly respect your opinions as expressed in this forum, you will allow me saying that I do not write my threads seeking your approval or disapproval. It is, of course, your privilege if you have chosen not to read the rest of my new thread because of what you consider a “very incorrect statement”.

However, I am surprised because I think you are the kind of person who likes to get to the bottom of all the issues raised here and in this case, you prefer to ignore the basis of the subject I am so much concerned with.
So I will not know if you share or not my viewpoint on something that is much more important than my first paragraph. However, it might also happen that you prefer to ignore my subject.

As for your own statement that “you would challenge that the culture and society of the east is much more advanced”, I gather, in the first place, that you are referring to the East, from the American point of view, i.e. Europe.

In the second place, perhaps you should read more carefully this famous first paragraph of mine. I speak nowhere of the USA and I am not trying to compare the Scandinavian society with your country. I am speaking as a European about another European country or countries.

I am sorry to say so, but most Europeans are more concerned about Europe than we are about the States.

And so, I reconfirm that the social, cultural and political structure of the Scandinavian countries still is highly envied by the rest of Europe, including the Russian Federation.

And this is not my opinion only. Many European scholars (even some American) and politicians openly express that same idea.

These are some indexes prepared by the OECD where we can see how Scandinavian Countries rank vs. the USA.

Human Development Index:
1st Norway – Iceland 3rd – Sweden 7th – Finland 12th -USA 13th – Denmark 16th.

Human Less Poverty Countries;
1st Sweden – 2nd Norway - 4th Finland – 5th Denmark – 17th USA.

Education Index:
1st Denmark and Finland, along with New Zealand and Australia – 6th Norway. 15th Sweden – 19th USA

Social Welfare:
2nd Norway – 4th Iceland – 6th Sweden – 8th Denmark – 10th Finland – 14th USA.
Quality of Life index:

3rd Norway – 5th Sweden – 7th Iceland – 9th Denmark – 12th Finland – 13th USA.

Corruption Perception (countries with less corruption):
2nd Denmark – 4th Sweden – 6th Finland – 10th Norway – 11th Iceland – 19th USA.

Out of the other remaining 12th Indexes, which I’m not listing to save time and space, the Scandinavian countries, together with Switzerland, rank always better than the USA, which moves between the 15th and 20th places.

Incidentally, a very learned emeritus MIT scholar like Noam Chomsky seems to share to a certain extent this idea about the Scandinavian countries.

All I can add is that I have lived many years in the USA, and I know quite well all the Scandinavian countries. Perhaps, I am of the opinion that I am not much in favor of some of their socialist parties but Center and Christian Democrat parties are gaining little by little more followers.

If you know Europe as I do the States we may continue this debate, if you wish. If not, I am afraid that you are judging Europeans from sources other than personal experiences.

Gromitt82

"The east" does not refer to Europe. It refers to the FAR east, i.e. Asia, such as China and Japan.

And I agree with Fr. Chuck that the statement "The northern European countries have always been an enviable example of advanced society" is overblown, at the very least, just plain wrong at worst.

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

"The east" does not refer to Europe. It refers to the FAR east, i.e. Asia, such as China and Japan.

And I agree with Fr. Chuck that the statement "The northern European countries have always been an enviable example of advanced society" is overblown, at the very least, just plain wrong at worst.

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a) If you and Fr. Chuck consider the Far East an example of advanced society vs. Europe or the States, I'm not going to argue with you about it.
I have travelled several times for business to Japan, South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Hong Kong The People's Republic China and my sons are still working with those countries as I used. They have offices in HK and in Guǎngzhōu (the old Canton) and have to visit them twice or three times a year. Some of them were called at a certain time the Asia Dragons. But the are losing steam. Only TPR of China (by the way your main creditor right now) is getting ready to take over as the most powerful country in the world.
But, in my opinion, this has nothing to do with standard of living and what we consider a modern society.

b) however, perhaps either you or Fr. Chuck, would not mind elucidating me regarding why the statement "The northern European countries have always been an enviable example of advanced society" is overblown, at the very least, just plain wrong at worst

I think it is only fair for you to explain your reasons to say so. On the other hand, I do not mind saying that if they are based on solid evidence I will be only too happy to admit you are both right and I am mistaken.

I am not so arrogant to pretend that I am always right and the others are wrong.

And I hope you are not speaking of the fact the Chinese culture represented by remarkable persons like Lao Tse or Confucious or their technology that so much surprised Marco Polo, like papermaking, gunpowder, the compass and so many other, is enough guarantee to assert that in the 20th century there living standards were the highest in the world.

Gromitt82

It appears that Anders Breivik described himself as "Christian" simply as shorthand for "western," or "European," and "not Muslim." He apparently said he is not very religious. So please do not think he was motivated in any way to save the church, or by some perceived religious commandment, but rather he acted out of twisted xenophobic fear and loathing.

At the risk of drawing too strong a comparison - his rantings that he wanted to initiate a revoluton against Muslims in Europe - by attacking white, Norewegian, and(mostly) Christians - is reminiscent to me of Charles Manson and his gang. That was another case of a group endeavoring to to start a race war by killing people of their own race.

I don't necessarily agree with Fr. Chuck about the far east, I was simply pointing out that his reference to "the east" doesn't refer to Europe.

Since you made the original statement, I would ask you to explain why you believe "The northern European countries have always been an enviable example of advanced society." Advanced how? Enviable by whom? And what do you mean by "always"? You've asked us to explain our objections to this statement, but that's not how debate works. You made an absolute statement, so it's incumbent on you to back it up with evidence before we continue.

The reference was advanced society. To me society has little to do with income of the population, but social and society make up. While many of the areas have started adapting more Europe or US life styles. Culture, traditions and society of the East were developed when those of Europe was still barbarian clans.

It may not be the type of culture a person who has not grown up there would want,

As for as the killer, of course it turns out he was not even Christian, did not attend church and while has little to do with it, was a member of the Masons ( which many Christian churches ban from members)

But there are hate groups in any society

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Originally Posted by ebaines

It appears that Anders Breivik described himself as "Christian" simply as shorthand for "western," or "European," and "not Muslim." He apparently said he is not very religous. So please do not think he was motivated in any way to save the church, or by some perceived religious commandment, but rather he acted out of twisted xenophobic fear and loathing.

At the risk of drawing too strong a comparison - his rantings that he wanted to initiate a revoluton against Muslims in Europe - by attacking white, Norewegian, and(mostly) Christians - is reminiscent to me of Charles Manson and his gang. That was another case of a group endeavoring to to start a race war by killing people of their own race.

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I agree with you. I am sure that he is just another case of psychopath terrorist that has nothing to see with Christianity or any religion for what matters. But his hatred toward Muslims has been exposed during his
Interrogatory yesterday, when he did not plead guilty and argued, instead, he wanted to save Norway and western Europe from "cultural Marxism" and the "mass import of Muslims".

However, the problem with this type of tanti-Muslim terrorism is that a number of more or less radical extreme right xenophobic parties are proliferating and thriving all over western Europe, from Scandinavia to Spain.

This situation is partly due to the severe economic crisis that is shaking up the EU since 2008. But Muslim immigrants all over Europe are also partly responsible for this growing antiphatiy and dislike towards them.

To a large extent, instead of integrating themselves in the western living standards of the countries where they emigrate to, they pretend to keep their traditions and way of living, as if they were back in their own countries.

For instance, they demand new and bigger mosques wherever they are, but we are certainly not allowed to build a single Christian church in most of their own countries.

The same applies to the way they treat their wives and daughters...

It goes without saying that none of this may justify in the least what this murderous character has decided to do, so I am of the opinion he should be punished with a death sentence. Not that I am in favor of it. I am not. But I think it totally unfair that according to the Norwegian Penal Law, in 21 years (he will be 54) he will be out in the street, ready to start all over again.

Gromitt82

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dwashbur

I don't necessarily agree with Fr. Chuck about the far east, I was simply pointing out that his reference to "the east" doesn't refer to Europe.

Since you made the original statement, I would ask you to explain why you believe "The northern European countries have always been an enviable example of advanced society." Advanced how? Enviable by whom? And what do you mean by "always"? You've asked us to explain our objections to this statement, but that's not how debate works. You made an absolute statement, so it's incumbent on you to back it up with evidence before we continue.

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Fair enough!

In the first place, let me point out that this is not my belief only. It is a widely spread belief over Europe and shared by conspicuous people, such as Ms. Markel, Mr. Durao Barroso, Mr. Jerzy Buzek, among many others, like Noam Chomsky or Margarite Drzeniek, of the WEF and Muriel Rouyer, Visiting Professor of Public Policy at Harvard University.

In my thread for Fr. Chuck I already listed several aspects of the Scandinavi
An that rank among the first in the world.

To get in some more detail, I can add that Iceland, Finland, Norway and Sweden lead the World Economic Forum’s list of most progressive democracies in the world, and in terms of women rights they are those showing the greatest equality between man and women.

What is called the Scandinavian Model is characterized by:

Strong property rights and a great facility to start or do business.
A universal healthcare.
Public pension plans, guaranteeing the highest incomes of Europe.
All sort of social programs and high union membership. 65% average as against 12% in USA.
Highly advanced schooling. They have fully implemented the principles of the new Bologna process. When you have finished a degree or course at a Scandinavian institution, you hold papers that are transferable to the entire EU and Canada.
Almost all Scandinavian students are fluent in English and they can more or less communicate in the three major Scandinavian languages and many master another language, like Spanish, German or Russian.

Enviable by all those whose privileges do not equal theirs. But for their weather, I would not mind living in Denmark.

And by “always” I, naturally mean, since the 2nd half of the 20th century, i.e. after WWII.

I think it is now up to you to produce your rebuttal and explain why you think I am entirely wrong.

Thanks in advance,
Gromitt82

Gromitt - this was an interesting post. I was discussing ABB with my cousin yesterday and we were both wondering why he was saying that he was anti-Islamic and yet chose white Norwegians as his target. I agree with ebaines in that regard.

I think I'd like to read some of Mankell's works because perhaps he has some insight on this phenomenon of extreme-right behavior we are seeing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

The reference was advanced society. To me society has little to do with income of the population, but social and society make up. While many of the areas have started adapting more Europe or US life styles. Culture, traditions and society of the East were developed when those of Europe was still barbarian clans.

It may not be the type of culture a person who has not grown up there would want,

As for as the killer, of course it turns out he was not even Christian, did not attend church and while has little to do with it, was a member of the Masons ( which many Christian churches ban from members)

But there are hate groups in any society

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The average western European society which Scandinavia belongs to, should not be analyzed only from the viewpoint of income of their population. This is not the major reason which I was referring to. I was actually referring to the social advantages we have over here with respect to the Far East countries.

Just to mention one of these advantages I would emphasize that in so “technological” advanced countries as Japan or China, welfare plans are practically unknown.

Culture traditions of ere were of course important although the Chinese culture was not older than the Sumerian one. Chinese culture dates back to some 4000 years whereas Sumer was first settled between 4500 and 4000 BC.

And when you say “traditions and society of the East were developed when those of Europe was still barbarian clans” you are not verye precise.

It is true that a large part of Europe was populated by Barbarians.
The European Neolithic period (about 7500 BC) began in Greece and the Balkans.

But, whereas in the Mediterranean basin the Egyptian and Greek cultures, and later on, the Romans, started to flourish, in the central and northern Europe the different tribes, such as West, East and Northern German peoples, Scythes, Celts, Gauls, Balts (Fosna-Hensbacka culture) remained for a few more centuries quite behind the Far-Eastern and Mediterranean cultures.

They were the Romans who started to civilize them through their different conquests.

Of course, you fully realize that you are precisely speaking of your ancestors when you refer to these barbarian tribes. I daresay so because unless your ancestors come from the Mediterranean area –which is rather unlikely bearing in mind your name- your precursors were from central Europe or England/Ireland, where the majority of the first settlers in North America were coming from.

And, to end it up, of course you are right when you say there are “hate groups” in every society, and more often than not, as in this case, they are difficult to spot until they decide to come out in the open.

In Spain we have had –and still have- our own “hate group” (the ETA) who in the last 40 years they have murdered almost 1000 people…
Best regards
Gromitt82

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Originally Posted by jakester

Gromitt - this was an interesting post. I was discussing ABB with my cousin yesterday and we were both wondering why he was saying that he was anti-Islamic and yet chose white Norwegians as his target. I agree with ebaines in that regard.

I think I'd like to read some of Mankell's works because perhaps he has some insight on this phenomenon of extreme-right behavior we are seeing.

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He claims he chose the white norwegians on the lake because he consider them as marxists responsible for letting the Muslims come in, in Norway.
Obviously, he is just a dangerous psychopath and the trouble is that, 1 years from now, he will be let loose again with and additional load of resentment against Norwegians.
Gromitt82