is a crock of you know what
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they just happened to leave an important variable out of the equation. Could it explain why the Earth isn't warming the way they thought?

It appears the great minds (scientists some call them) who analyse climate etc attribute no value to vegitation in cities as carbon sinks and yet there are some who take what these dills serve up as absolute truth and a reason to change our way of life. I wonder what variable we shall find they left out next. Perhaps they left the oceans out of their calculations? I know how you can predict AGW; think of a number, double it, take away half the number you first thought of, divide by 9 and if what you have is a whole number use that, otherwise do the exercise again.The number you get is the predicted temperature rise by the year 2050

And then there's this: Nine Out of Ten Climate Denying Scientists Have Ties to Exxon Mobil Money - Environment - GOOD

And then there's this: Nine Out of Ten Climate Denying Scientists Have Ties to Exxon Mobil Money - Environment - GOOD

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

And then there's this: Nine Out of Ten Climate Denying Scientists Have Ties to Exxon Mobil Money - Environment - GOOD

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So we have frauds on both side of the debate, which leads me to say I don't believe any of it. Look, Climate Change is happening, whether this is just an on going process, and there is evidence it might be, the result of human activity, and there might be evidence to support this theory, or the latest way of funding scientific research, and there is evidence it might be, there is also strong evidence to the contrary. We know there appears to be a group of scientists for hire by the tobacco industry, the oil indistry, the coal indistry, etc but there is also a group of scientists who make it up as they go along, and then there are the vested political interests who are using this to restructure the world economy

They are scientists... quid pro quo their research is unimpeachable... Isn't that what we were told about the leading climate scientists who's research support the hypothesis of human caused AGW ?

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Originally Posted by paraclete

So we have frauds on both side of the debate, which leads me to say I don't believe any of it. look, Climate Change is happening, whether this is just an on going process, and there is evidence it might be, the result of human activity, and there might be evidence to support this theory, or the latest way of funding scientific research, and there is evidence it might be, there is also strong evidence to the contrary. We know there appears to be a group of scientists for hire by the tobacco industry, the oil indistry, the coal indistry, etc but there is also a group of scientists who make it up as they go along, and then there are the vested political interests who are using this to restructure the world economy

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Global warming? Climate change? Climate cooling? Perhaps we can apply Occam's and come up with a micro view, rather than concentrating on a macro view of global warming/climate change/climate cooling. In this case science fiction may well be as good as science fact.

What might this fictional view view look like?

Sometime in the future climate scientists will eventually come to the conclusion we are slowly entering into a era where climate will manifest itself in terms of localized climatic phenomenon. The world might be looked at in terms of hundreds of mini climatic zones, each different, but each exhibiting a similar phenomena. That being, a dramatic almost day to day shift in climatic conditions.

For example, in the temperate zone during Winter minimum temperatures could range from -5 to 15 degrees within the one area on a regular basis. That is to say, day to day, week to week, during the Winter months We will get the impression we are experiencing a very brief period Summer in the middle of Winter. Exactly the same thing applies to Summer, i.e we are experiencing Winter condition in Summer, but only for a brief period.

Yes, I do dabble in science fiction writing. Sometimes science fiction becomes science fact.

Tut

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Yes, I do dabble in science fiction writing. Sometimes science fiction becomes science fact.

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Tut ;the 21st century HG Wells .

Of course it doesn't take a scientist to determine that a city park with trees is cooler than a city street without trees. I need to get me some of those research bucks.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Tut ;the 21st century HG Wells .

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Hi Tom.

Yes, we don't want a group of scientists making the political decisions. Unfortunately, this seems to be the case at the moment.

This is the problem with democracy. Decision making is slow and in the end we never move away from the middle ground. Philip of Macedon understood this very well when it came to dealing with Athenians.

Perhaps some scientists are also aware of this principle.

Tut

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Originally Posted by tomder55

They are scientists ...quid pro quo their research is unimpeachable ...Isn't that what we were told about the leading climate scientists who's research support the hypothesis of human caused AGW ?

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Who told you that, you've been smoking dope with Ex again

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Global warming? Climate change? Climate cooling? Perhaps we can apply Occam's and come up with a micro view, rather than concentrating on a macro view of global warming/climate change/climate cooling. In this case science fiction may well be as good as science fact.

What might this fictional view view look like?

Sometime in the future climate scientists will eventually come to the conclusion we are slowly entering into a era where climate will manifest itself in terms of localized climatic phenomenon. The world might be looked at in terms of hundreds of mini climatic zones, each different, but each exhibiting a similar phenomena. That being, a dramatic almost day to day shift in climatic conditions.

For example, in the temperate zone during Winter minimum temperatures could range from -5 to 15 degrees within the one area on a regular basis. That is to say, day to day, week to week, during the Winter months We will get the impression we are experiencing a very brief period Summer in the middle of Winter. Exactly the same thing applies to Summer, i.e we are experiencing Winter condition in Summer, but only for a brief period.

Yes, I do dabble in science fiction writing. Sometimes science fiction becomes science fact.

Tut

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Tut we have tried that and look at the conclusion they came too. Interesting you have just described the winter/summer climate where I live. How many observations did you take?

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Tut we have tried that and look at the conclusion they came too. Interesting you have just described the winter/summer climate where I live. How many observations did you take?

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Hi Clete,


There are possibly many areas that have experienced a number of seasons within the one season so to speak. I have few observations and thus no evidence for the theory. There also exists the problem of drawing macro conclusions from micro facts.

If we keep going the same way then perhaps in a hundred years or so we will no longer experience Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter. The terms may well become superfluous in many areas.

Hey! It's no worse than any other theory on climate change going around at the moment. I just wish I had a few figures to fudge.


Tut

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Originally Posted by TUT317

Hi Clete,


There are possibly many areas that have experienced a number of seasons within the one season so to speak. I have few observations and thus no evidence for the theory. There also exists the problem of drawing macro conclusions from micro facts.

If we keep going the same way then perhaps in a hundred years or so we will no longer experience Spring, Summer, Autumn and Winter. The terms may well become superfluous in many areas.

Hey! it's no worse than any other theory on climate change going around at the moment. I just wish I had a few figures to fudge.


Tut

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Hi Tut I think there are six seasons where I live maybe more now certainly there are not four distinct seasons. The bulbs in my garden are very confused. It seems we can have snow anytime up to December and what we would describe as winter conditions anytime. Summer has fled in recent years and now is a short hot period perhaps in late January. Global warming is a great theory but I think is only truly experienced in the high latitudes and these Antarctic blasts seem to be becoming more frequent. No data to to prove any of it. Ah for the heady days of my youth when we could expect at least one good heat wave

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Hi Tut I think there are six seasons where I live maybe more now certainly there are not four distinct seasons. The bulbs in my garden are very confused. It seems we can have snow anytime up to December and what we would describe as winter conditions anytime. Summer has fled in recent years and now is a short hot period perhaps in late January. Global warming is a great theory but I think is only truely experienced in the high latitudes and these Antarctic blasts seem to be becoming more frequent. No data to to prove any of it. Ah for the heady days of my youth when we could expect at least one good heat wave

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Hi again Clete,

In my youth I lived in Sydney and in the middle of Summer you could always rely on a 'southerly buster' to cool things down for a few days. Don't see many of them these days,

I usually try and get down to Mt Selwyn as much as possible during the ski season. The start of the ski season was just about perfect down there. Big snow falls just in time for the long weekend. I checked it out on the web cams they have in place and it looked absolutely perfect.

I thought I would wait a week after the event ( when the crowd goes home). Anyway, I checked out the web cams again just before I was about to leave and I couldn't believe my eyes. Most of the snow had disappeared due to the rain and warm conditions.

Anyway, it's back again. I acknowledge that Mt. Selwyn is not as high as the other ski resorts in Australia, but it was interesting nonetheless.

Tut

And in repression to that, all the other news refuting AGW and the fact that most Americans no longer believe in AGW, The Goracle is riding to the rescue.

The Climate Reality Project

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

And in repression to that, all the other news refuting AGW and the fact that most Americans no longer believe in AGW, The Goracle is riding to the rescue.

The Climate Reality Project

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So we are once again to be subjected to Mr Gore's powerpoint presentation of selective facts but note climate change has become CLIMATE CRISIS and we need to realise climate change is not a matter of whether you believe it or not, it is happening but the idea that we can do anything about it is the big question mark. Science tells us many conflicting facts;
1. it is caused by human CO2 emissions.
2 only one fifth of CO2 emissions come from human activity.
3. global warming will continue for a hundred years even if emissions stop completely
4. renewables can replace all emitting energy production.
5. this is only a warm interlude between ice ages
6 glaciers are melting but some glaciers are still growing

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Originally Posted by speechlesstx

And in repression to that, all the other news refuting AGW and the fact that most Americans no longer believe in AGW, The Goracle is riding to the rescue.

The Climate Reality Project

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It doesn't really matter what most people believe; 99.9 percent of the population can be wrong at any one time.

Tut

Clete you forgot sunspots. I pick #5

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Originally Posted by TUT317

It doesn't really matter what most people believe; 99.9 percent of the population can be wrong at any one time.

Tut

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When your 'proof' is propaganda it's all that matters.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Clete you forgot sunspots. I pick #5

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Well Tom that's not actually a scientic fact. We could also attribute it to approaching the galactic merdiian or some such. The point I was making, once again, is the science is not as settled as some would like to think and there are conflicting theories depending upon which disciple you consult. As our knowledge of this world is actually only a couple of hundred years old we really have no idea of what is normal, or even if a norm other than ice age exists. We have people digging up dinosaurs, finding tissue and still saying this creature died millions of years ago. We are worrying about CO2 when there are other things we should be more concerned about like getting us to hell out of here. We are, scientists say, overdue for a super volcano eruption, an asteroid strike, an extinction event, shift of the poles and facing starvation from over population, water shortages, depletion of energy sources. I think we have just outstayed our welcome and we have only been here a short time