Hello:

In 1963, my ship was home ported at the Naval base in Charleston, S.C. For some reason, the local black people took exception to being refused service at the F.W. Woolworth lunch counter, so they demonstrated about it... I joined in. No, I'm not black. Years later, MOST of those who opposed integration, admit they were wrong.

These days, for some reason gay people take exception to being refused the right to marry. We are on the precipice of the LAST great civil rights debate in our nations history. I joined in, cause I LOVE being on the RIGHT side of history. No, I'm not gay.

What side are you on?

excon

We had our gay parade in Toronto yesterday; it is a hit every year and very popular. The new mayor of Toronto, Ford, wouldn't support them, so some marched with face masks on looking like him (he is very fat and florid). He was unpopular before, now he is more so.

Gays can be married in Ontario now; why are you so far behind ?

Tick

The interesting thing is that those African-Americans you protested with probably would not support your contention that 'Gay Marriage' is a civil right.

In fact ;I'd bet they'd be insulted that you would equate the 2 'struggles'. What was it ? Oh yeah.. 70% of African-Americans in bluest of blue states California voted against prop 8.

The founders did not mention marriage as a right . But they did mention the free exercise of religion as a right. Now ;the NY State Senate had to write in all types of exceptions into their 'gay marriage' law to exempt churches from being forced to perform 'gay marriages ' .
But you know and I know that these provisions will be challenged under the same 14th Amendment clauses you think applies to gay marriage. Effectively ,the churches will be in the same position as the pharmacist who won't sell abortion pills.

Sad that people want to compare civil rights with gay rights, they are not the same. If I was black I would be outraged by the comparison.

But yes I am on the right side, it should not be allowed.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

The founders did not mention marriage as a right . But they did mention the free exercise of religion as a right.

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Hello again, tom:

We've had this discussion before...

It's true, marriage (and by extension gay marriage), isn't MENTIONED as a right... But, the founders took care of that in the Ninth Amendment, where they said, "The enumeration (or MENTIONING) in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people."

That amendment says quite clearly, that a right doesn't have to be mentioned or "enumerated", in order to BE a right.

I agree too, that present day African Americans don't, as a whole, support gay marriage... However, I suggest that's due to the church's influence rather than their civil rights leaders... In any case, it matters NOT whether it's popular. Our rights aren't subject to votes or popularity contests...

excon

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Sad that people want to compare civil rights with gay rights, they are not the same. If I was black I would be outraged by the comparison.

but yes I am on the right side, it should not be allowed.

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We don't have the same situations here in Canada as you do in the southern states, or any other states for that matter; however, the problems of guns, knives and gangs is escalating in parts of Toronto amongst the black community. I know this is a little off topic but just wanted to point out that situation in a small comparison. Of course, this doesn't infringe on gay rights here. I guess we are more tolerant.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Effectively ,the churches will be in the same position as the pharmacist who won't sell abortion pills.

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Hello again, tom:

Nope, not at all... When a PHARMACIST won't sell an abortion pill, the patient can't go to city hall to get one... But, if a church refuses to perform a marriage, the couple can still get one from a local judge. It's not the same thing at all.

However, if gay marriage is ultimately decided due to the "equal protection" clause, if church's are handing out marriages that INCLUDE civil rights, then they're NOT going to be able to discriminate... That won't make me sad.. Should a church owned housing complex be allowed to deny housing to black people? What if the church VOTED to do so?

excon

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

Sad that people want to compare civil rights with gay rights, they are not the same.

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Hello Padre:

They are ABSOLUTELY the same...

At one time in our history, there was a sea of people who were denied their basic civil rights. Those people happened to be black...

Today, there is a sea of people who are denied their basic civil rights. Those people happen to be gay. The people are different. The issue is the same.

excon

What a crock of... Ex history is written by the victors, there is no right side. Be careful Ex they are on the march to make it compulsory

Hello again,

You should know that it's not so much a gay marriage thing, as it is a civil rights thing... I don't have a problem denying gays the right to marry on MORAL grounds... We'd just have to solve the problem by stripping all civil rights from marriage.

That would work for me...

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello Padre:

They are ABSOLUTELY the same...

At one time in our history, there was a sea of people who were denied their basic civil rights. Those people happened to be black...

Today, there is a sea of people who are denied their basic civil rights. Those people happen to be gay. The people are different. The issue is the same.

excon

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Whoa ! Your talking about 2 separate things here. The struggle blacks went through and those of the gay community can not be compared to nor are equal in any way. Yes there may be a shunning of certain types of people but I have never seen it in writing as in a CC&R like I have against blacks. I have never heard of gays being told to ride the back of the bus. I don't see it mandatory that they wear any special emblems.

The gay community wants too much and they want to become supirior in rights to every one else. And that is wrong. They asked for rights as married couples have and were given relief by civil union. Now they want more. Just as it always has been. They want to shove it in your face and down your throat. If you don't accept their lifestyle they want to call you names. Its not about choice or liberty at that point. Wake up and see the writing on the wall.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

The gay community wants too much and they want to become supirior in rights to every one else. And that is wrong.

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Hello dad:

Are you done with your homophobic rant?? I don't mind ranting... I mind ranting based upon misinformation. And, you, my friend, ARE sadly misinformed...

You say you gave them what they wanted once, but the gays want MORE...

Ain't so. Due to the Defense of Marriage Act, they HAVE LESS - not more. They cannot receive Social Security benefits for spouses, as can the straight couple next door. They cannot file joint federal income tax returns or take advantage of the larger estate tax exemption for married couples. Federal laws like those giving the right of family leave do not apply to them. If they work for the federal government, they cannot extend their health insurance policy to their spouses. A childless soldier with a same-sex spouse will not receive the housing allowance for dependents, even after “don't ask, don't tell” is fully repealed.

And, because the law allows states to ignore a same-sex marriage performed elsewhere, spouses may not be able to visit each other in a hospital if they are traveling.

There's more (or should I say LESS?).

excon

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello dad:

Are you done with your homophobic rant??? I don't mind ranting... I mind ranting based upon misinformation. And, you, my friend, ARE sadly misinformed...

You say you gave them what they wanted once, but the gays want MORE...

Ain't so. Due to the Defense of Marriage Act, they HAVE LESS - not more. They cannot receive Social Security benefits for spouses, as can the straight couple next door. They cannot file joint federal income tax returns or take advantage of the larger estate tax exemption for married couples. Federal laws like those giving the right of family leave do not apply to them. If they work for the federal government, they cannot extend their health insurance policy to their spouses. A childless soldier with a same-sex spouse will not receive the housing allowance for dependents, even after “don’t ask, don’t tell” is fully repealed.

There's more (or should I say LESS?).

excon

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So your trying to say that gay marriage is going to change all that? It still isn't going to make a change in the differences as they are now. You don't want to look for relief you appear to want instant. Not everything can be that way. Why not fight for recognition and open the challenges as they come at you rather then trying to shotgun everything? Call it homophobic and throw out labels if you like but not everyone is going to agree with that lifestyle and that's a personal choice.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

but not everyone is going to agree with that lifestyle and thats a personal choice.

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Hello again, dad:

Oh, so we're back to THAT myth, huh?? Tell me, did you CHOOSE to be a heterosexual? I'm heterosexual. I didn't CHOOSE it. You didn't either.

excon

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

...but not everyone is going to agree with that lifestyle and thats a personal choice.

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So you can be either but this week you choose to be straight?

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

Oh, so we're back to THAT myth, huh??? Tell me, did you CHOOSE to be a heterosexual? I'm heterosexual. I didn't CHOOSE it. You didn't either.

excon

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No myth involved in what I had said. Not sure where your myth is coming from but this is where we aren't going to agree.

The personal choice isn't about who is doing whatever. The personal choice is about acceptance. It has nothing to do with where your trying to push it. Did you even think about that? Don't be so stuck you can't see anymore. I know you better then that.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

The personal choice is about acceptance. It has nothing to do with where your trying to push it. Did you even think about that?

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Hello again, dad:

I DID wonder if you were talking about acceptance. But it SOUNDED like you were saying the thing about choice... Sorry about that...

Nonetheless, that argument is bogus too. I DON'T agree with the lifestyle either... So what? I don't agree with shooting animals. What does YOUR right to DO that, have to do with how I feel about it?

excon

So where do we stop with the "rights" same sex ? What about multiple marriage, mixed sex, three or four people of various sex.
That may be the way they were born according to them,

What about age limits, some people are born to love very young people, so are the laws protecting the young wrong because it violates their civil rights ?

Laws are based at some level on moral values, the choice has to be made at some point, where the line of morals are.

Hello Padre:

In the ordinary course of events, you are VERY logical in your legal positions... However, when it comes to gay marriage, you go bonkers...

Nobody is calling for man/dog marriage..

excon

PS> (edited) If MORALS are the issue, than let's STRIP civil rights from marriage altogether, and I'll SUPPORT a BAN on gay marriage..

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello again, dad:

I DID wonder if you were talking about acceptance. But it SOUNDED like you were saying the thing about choice... Sorry about that...

Nonetheless, that argument is bogus too. I DON'T agree with the lifestyle either... So what? I don't agree with shooting animals. What does YOUR right to DO that, have to do with how I feel about it?

excon

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The only right that we both share is that of freedom of speech. So we can express our feelings on the rest of the rights. Im not trying to stand in the way of someone else's rights but I do also believe that there are certain classes within our great society that should be granted (call it special if you like ) protection of standing. Marriage is one of them. Disabled persons are another class that needs protection. But if civil union were to be allowed across the land and accepted by our government so that the "rights" are equal to that of marriage in whole. Then where is the loss or harm?


Rights of women didn't happen overnight either. But this I guarantee. If you stood 50 men in a line I bet you would have trouble picking the gay ones from the straight ones. But given the same and stand blacks and whites you wouldn't have a problem picking out who is who. That is the big difference between the struggles that many have endured. Many rights aren't just as automatic as we would like to think. And sometimes change has to be by force. We all know that. The Scope trials that brought new thinking to education, Roe V Wade that brought the right of abortion through. Its not always about agreeing. But sometimes to get recognition there must be struggle and court battles. History has taught us many lessons. Some worth repeating and as some would say "not so much :) ". Its up to all of us to make sure that once rights are given they are never taken away. Right now the gay community is struggling for rights as in marriage. And now to be married. Its not going to be an overnight process. History has at least taught us that much.