Unbeknownst to me, my husband agreed to take a substantial sum of money (5K) from a friend for the sole purpose of trying to make the friend money gambling. I would have never agreed to this and never knew about it until it went south and the money was lost. There is supposedly an informal handwritten IOU (non-notorized) stating that my husband would pay back the money plus half of the earnings. I don't know if there was a time frame, etc. I have saved emails and one other friend who confirms that the original party knew that the money was to be used for this illegal (depending on the state, method of gambling, etc) purpose. Would a judge honor the informal IOU and force him to repay the money lost in this situation?

Where would this have occurred (as in country and state). Gambling isn't universally illegal. And is actually state sanctioned in some cases. So specific situations may have a significant impact on how a court would view this.

State of FL. I know some of it was apparently used online, which the FBI shut down last week, and some of it may have been used with a bookie, which I think is illegal. Not a gambling expert so I am not sure. Since it was an IOU, not a "Promissory Note," does that help too? Needless to say, there are other issues here but I want to address the legal ones first.

So your argument isn't with your husband who borrowed money without your knowledge and then lost it without your knowledge. Your argument is with the person who lent the money to him and you want to know how to assist your husband in not paying back his friend. Amazing.

Your concern isn't your husband's possible illegal activities, your concern is that the friend may have known about your husband's illegal activities - so your husband doesn't have to pay back the loan. Priceless.

At any rate, legally, a written IOU proves a debt. It doesn't have to be notarized. Your husband signed it, he borrowed the money. You are going to have a tough time proving that the friend KNEW your husband was borrowing the money for an illegal activity (and not all gambling is illegal; no one is being charged at the moment for on-line gambling. They are being charged with not declaring their winnings on their taxes). Even if the friend knew it, I very much doubt a Judge would dismiss the loan based on, "You knew or should have known."

So wait until the friend sues you and then argue your case. I think you're going to lose. Of course, when I say "you" I mean "he," because you have no standing in this.

I think you're blaming the wrong person here. Your argument - if it goes to Court - is going to look petty and certainly your husband (and you, if you are trying to get out from under this loan) are not going to look good.

Oh, I absolutely blame him, but I don't feel that I personally should have to pay back the money since I was taken by both of them. Clearly we have a huge problem. The money wasn't used as a "loan;" it was used to try and make her some extra cash. I have emails, voicemails, and text messages to verify her knowledge of this. She also knew that my husband had a gambling problem and has been seeing a counselor, etc, for this issue. So yes, I am equally angry at both, not just my husband.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

... certainly your husband (and you, if you are trying to get out from under this loan) are not going to look good.

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I don't see that OP (the wife) has any liability here in any event. She didn't sign the IOU.

But, assuming the gambling was illegal, I would be very surpised if the lender ever attempts to bring this IOU to court.

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Originally Posted by katiefsu

... Since it was an IOU, not a "Promissory Note," does that help too? ...

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No.

It's six of the one and a half dozen of the other.

The two terms mean almost the same thing, except that an IOU usually isn't a negotiable instrument and doesn't usually contain repayment terms, IOU - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

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Originally Posted by AK lawyer

I don't see that OP (the wife) has any liability here in any event. She didn't sign the IOU.

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I didn't mean that she was responsible for repayment. She (obviously) is not on the paper. I said that HE signed it and HE needs to repay the money.

I meant she will look bad if she intends to go to Court to attempt to defend her husband.

I don't know that the gambling he did was illegal. For $5,000 I'd take the husband to Court and take my chances. Of course, why anyone would lend someone who has an addiction, seeks help, money for any reason is beyond me.

I agree, Judy; I agree with both of your posts for different reasons.

Let me defend myself by saying that I personally have a credit score above 700 and I believe in paying people what you owe them. Given my husband's history with poor money choices, he has no access to the finances. I am in charge of it all. I have done and am doing everything I know to do to help with recovery so this has been devastating to me and my husband both; this is his first setback in almost a year.

There is a complicated history between the two of them when it comes to this issue; apparently several years ago when he was into gambling and not recovery he made her a good deal of money. This was several years before we were married.

He is definitely to blame in this and I am not trying to avoid coming to an agreement outside of court with her. I am married to him, not her, though, so his poor choices affect me directly.

She was my friend too, I thought, but I would never go into any kind of agreement with another woman's husband or man's wife without consulting the spouse, especially if I am aware of a very sensitive issue. You don't dangle a bottle of vodka in front of an alcoholic and say, "here, make me a coctail, i only want half of what you make back, no one has to know." Now was he in the wrong for entering into the agreement and slipping back into his old habits? ABSOLUTELY. I can't tell you the amount of hurt I have personally felt in the situation, but that wan't the point of the post; I just have to figure out on my end what I am willing to help with versus what I am not given the awful details of the matter. It's not like WE borrowed the money because we were behind on the mortgage; I would have never borrowed money from a person; I would have gone through a bank. It was used for something that goes against everything in me. There is a moral, ethical, and legal component to the situation; I just want to find out legally what I might be looking at.

Legally he borrowed the money. Is he bound morally or ethically to repay it? That's your decision. I think the IOU IS enforceable. There is always the argument that she knew it was for illegal activities (if it was) or what percentage went to illegal activities - ? The only way to know is to have her take him to Court and see how the Judge rules.

And I understand - you are suffering in the middle of this and you had nothing to do with it. Sounds like one big mess. And I also agree - this person is a friend? With friends like her, who needs enemies - ?

There's also an argument (on your side) whether she had a reasonable expectation that your husband could pay her back. If she knew he could not, well, why did she lend him the money? I don't know that it will fly but it's an argument to be made.

Does she have a gambling problem? I can't imagine giving $5,000 to anyone for gambling money.

Again, you're the one caught in the middle and you're the only responsible one. When I read your first post I thought you were merely trying to get out from under this obligation. Now that you've shared what's going on I understand exactly where you're coming from.

It is difficult when you are the only financially-responsible one.

The flip side of this is if a person can get scared straight maybe this will do it for your husband.

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Originally Posted by katiefsu

I just want to find out legally what I might be looking at.

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Hello k:

HE signed the IOU. HE owes it. You don't. Florida is a separate property state.

However, HIS defense that the contract shouldn't be upheld because the lender KNEW he was going to use the loan for unlawful purposes, will only open your husband up to criminal charges. It wouldn't be something I'd advise him to do. Besides, it won't hold up in small claims court.

So, even though you don't owe it, you're going to have to pay it, or throw hubby under the bus.

excon

Yes - it has been a huge burden to carry and to know what the right thing to do in this situation is hard. I appreciate your feedback.

We offered to pay her a small amount weekly via certified mail and money order but I guess that answer did not satisfy her and she is threatening to involve family, etc, which is blackmail.

She also threatened to contact the law, but she is the one harassing us and we are trying to come up with a peaceable solution; there is nothing she can contact "the law" for besides filing a suit against him. She came to our house late at night last week and acted really crazy; raising her voice, crying, and just showing a side of her that I had never seen. We kept our cool but I did tell her in a nice tone of voice that this was not the way to handle the situation and that she was disturbing the neighborhood and being inappropriate. I am trying to rise above all that is happening and not get sucked into responding in anger to these childish behaviors. I may have to get a restraining order against her but I have never had any kind of dealings with this kind of thing and I am just flabbergasted.

I don't have $5k to just give someone; I have other financial obligations that are legit to take care of. This is an awful situation.

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Originally Posted by katiefsu

I don't have $5k to just give someone; I have other financial obligations that are legit to take care of. This is an awful situation.

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Hello again, k:

Maybe SHE didn't have $5K to just give to someone either. I don't know what your husband promised her, but whatever it was, he didn't do it. So, you're not going to get points with me for BLAMING the victim of your husbands behavior.. HER demands are LEGIT TOO.

It IS an awful situation, not of YOUR making, true. But you have the means to FIX it, and I would.

excon

And I will add (just to keep things very clear) that this is "his" debt, not "yours." It is "him," not "us." I would not in any refer to a debt that is not yours. Be very careful how you word things. It won't change much but you don't want anyone to think you had knowledge of this transaction.

She's probably upset over losing $5,000 - I would be. She knew he was using it to gamble but she's surprised that it's all gone?

I would tell her to stay away from your house - this is a debt, nothing more, nothing less. There are legal means to collect it. That's what she should be doing - and I'd tell her that. Sounds like she's going in that direction, anyway.

Just be careful with your language - "we" offered her sounds like you are taking responsibility. You aren't and you can't but I'd be careful.

Update: After an all day ordeal, I sent a small payment via money order and certified mail to her today; she would not send address for payment and of course wanted it in person, probably so she could fling mud, but for tracking purposes I insisted, plus a face-to-face meeting would not help matters.

We are trying to move forward in a very bad situation by setting up a payment scenario because, even though they both were wrong, we don't want this to come back and haunt us, especially since we are in therapy, etc.

She has called approx. 15 times, texted approx. 15 times, went by his place of business (he is off today), our home (I work from home but travel too and was away for a bit for a meeting), and his mom's home. For someone who was quick to make a buck, she is not dealing with the ramifications of her choice well.

We emailed her with pictures and a tracking number that a payment has been sent and that all communication from this point on is to be via certified mail. No calls, no texts, no emails, no visits to our home or anyone else's. She is truly acting crazy, but this is what happens when you make deals with people for the wrong reasons in the wrong purposes - my husband, and in turn I, am suffering the consequences.

I am keeping everything. She can take him to court if she wants to, but we can prove that we are making an effort to repay her. She I guess wanted the money at one time but that is not possible. Odds are that if she had a favorable ruling the payment requirements would be similar to what we are doing. Does anyone have any further suggestions? We just want this to be over but unfortunately are not in a position to repay her back quickly; I am definitely not sending her bill money and getting behind on MY obligations. I think certified mail and money orders weekly (on the days my husband gets paid) with $100 - $150 a week is fair. Is there anything we should do in terms of her harassing us, etc? Like I said, I have kept every attempt on our behalf to come up with a solution and have record of emails, texts, vms, phone call dates and times. I am trying to make a very bad situation right but don't want to be worried about her actions and "blackmailish" behavior from this point on. What else can I do? I appreciate all of your help today, it has helped me come to a better understanding and what I think is a reasonable solution.

Judy, I know I shouldn't say we, but it is hard for me not to - I can't help it sometimes! :-(

I am in charge of the household finances - his paycheck is direct deposited into an account with only my name on it; he gets a weekly amount of spending money for gas, etc. This sounds harsh but it is needed (he agrees) as a safeguard given the history, so it ultimately will be up to ME to make sure this happens. Of course she wants it in writing, but I will not sign anything nor will my husband; if what we are doing will not satisfy her, she will have to take him to court, waste more money on legal fees, and ultimately end up with a similar agreement; even if it did end up as something like wage garnishment, it would be a set amount weekly and more than likely would be about the same amount from my understanding.

I hope "we" :-) are doing the right thing. I really want to, and so does my husband. I know he is a bad guy in this right along with her BUT I know this has been a wake-up call to him as to how decisions made for the wrong reasons have huge ramifications.

But it just stinks all around.

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Originally Posted by JudyKayTee

She's probably upset over losing $5,000 - I would be. She knew he was using it to gamble but she's surprised that it's all gone?

I would tell her to stay away from your house - this is a debt, nothing more, nothing less. There are legal means to collect it. That's what she should be doing - and I'd tell her that. Sounds like she's going in that direction, anyway.

Just be careful with your language - "we" offered her sounds like you are taking responsibility. You aren't and you can't but I'd be careful.

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JKT, I would be mad too, but somehow in this she has forgotten her role in the situation, even though she came to him about it (I have emails proving).

Now, I don't know for sure, but knowing what I have learned through counseling and just dealing with this illness/sickness/addiction/whatever you want to call it, that I am sure that once he saw dollar signs he probably said things to make her feel like it was a win-win like it was in their dealings in years past.

People with addictive behaviors get back into them like a rolling stone - the mind becomes one-track and all abilities to make sound decisions are thrown out the window when the "carrot is dangled." That is why alcoholics don't go to bars and people who are compulsive shoppers have to stay out of malls by themselves. All addictive behavor is the same, be it drugs, alcohol, gambling, food, shopping, whatever the vice. I don't know if she specifically has a gambling problem, but it has definitely become clear to me that she has some kind of problem and I really hope that she sees that through this and gets help. Part of me feels sorry for her in all of this because it really is pitiful.

The emails sent with confirmation of payment sent and the plan to send payment weekly were sent from my husband, not me. I have not answered any calls or texts from her. But I did mail the payment and get the money order. The issue is that I am not comfortable at this point giving him the money and trusting that it will be done; for my personal peace of mind I would rather handle that aspect of it to make sure it gets done and sent in a timely manner to avoid further conflict.

If she doesn't accept our terms, which are pretty fair in my opinion, you are right, she will have to settle it legally.

I guess my next concern is what are my rights and my husband's rights regarding her repeated calls/texts/vms/visits to our property and job? I know I said harassment earlier; what actually constitutes this?