How do I tell the difference between a dominance growl and a playful growl?

The reason why I am asking is that Owen knows the command leave it. If I tell him to leave a toy of his, he will. Now if he is playing with it and I say leave it. He will growl and pull on the toy.

I have been standing there holding the toy and not pulling on it saying Leave it sternly. If he puts his paw on top of the toy(dominance?) I take it off. I will then take the toy and put it on the floor and say leave it. I make him wait until I say he can have it.

I want a dog that likes to play but also will listen and leave things when told EVEN if it is his toy!

Susan

This is a tough one.

Some people think that any time a dog growls, it's a show of dominance. I don't believe that.

Dogs can't talk. Their little noises, growls included, are their way of talking. I rely much more on body language then I do on the sounds they make.

If his bum is in the air, tail wagging, toy in mouth, a he's growling, that's play time.

If he's baring his teeth, on all fours, or on his stomach, guarding his toy, then he's asserting his dominance.

Ty Alty for your response. I am adding some more info that your post brought to my mind.

Owen seems to be on his tummy hiding the toy from me. Covering it up I guess you could say. So far I only have been noticing this reaction when he is on the couch. He does not bare teeth and the growl is more a vibration in the throat type of growl. He will stare at me more than usual, kind of like he is trying to get me to back down.

Tug of war is tug of war with him and I don't feel that it is the same type of growl. He will just pull on his rope and shake his head while I hold the other side. We do say drop it when playing this and then will throw the rope for him. Am I confusing him by allowing that growl and not the other?

I will say I don't feel like he will bite me. I am not scared. I just want him to realize that yes it is his toy BUT if I say leave it then he has to.

The part that concerns me is that he knows the command. In fact once he lets go of the toy and I put the toy on the floor and say leave it, he will wait until I say it is okay before he goes to get it. Dare I suggest he is being stubborn due to his being a bully breed :P

Susan

It is a tough one to describe...

If a dog growled at me for going to take a toy from them then I would consider that dominant behavior and it would not be allowed. All of my dogs freely give up toys... OK that's a lie, Brody turns his head away when you go to take the ball from his mouth... we are working on it though. None of them however, will growl, they know that If I want the toy... it's mine. I am the Alpha, I own the toys, I just allow them to play with them.

If a dog was growling at me AFTER I had my hand on the toy and was pulling (tug-of-war) then that is more of a communication thing than dominance.

I agree with Alty that body language says a lot more than vocalizations in many cases.

I think you might want to change what commands you are using.

'Leave it' for us means that Chloe does not touch it AT ALL. 'Leave it' is for things that she will not be allowed to have at any time such as chocolate, the cat, the remote, homework, paperwork, etc.

'Give' is the command for handing over whatever she has in her mouth whether it is a treat, toy, shoe, homework, etc. It sometimes takes a moment for her to be able to get the item out of her mouth especially if it is a large or very small item. Even in the middle of a tug-of-war game if I say give she releases the toy/rope. If she tries to turn it into a game or refuse, I just barely stroke her jaw and she lets go. No growling-just a rolling of the eyes and a huge sigh. Yes, she acts like a teenager at times.

If I don't want her to have her toy or treat yet, I use 'wait'. It means that she will get what she wants, but when I allow it.

Thank you all. Cat what you said made complete sense. I will be changing commands and telling others in the house as well. I never thought of how it could be confusing to him so thank you again.

Susan

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Originally Posted by mogrann

Thank you all. Cat what you said made complete sense. I will be changing commands and telling others in the house as well. I never thought of how it could be confusing to him so thank you again.

Susan

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You're welcome. I hope it helps. :)

Sorry if this has already been mentioned, but body language is key. If he is in a bow position with ears perked up, that's basic play body lingo, ears back, standing tall, "yawning" are all signs of sggressive behavior.

Remember, tails wagging are NOT always an idicator of a happy dog. Do not rely in tail wagging as an idicator.

Signs of confidence: erect stance (standing tall), tail up, tail wagging in a slower sweep, ears pricked up or relaxed, direct look; relaxed, smaller pupils.

Signs of fear or concern: lowered stance, tail down or tucked under, tail wagging in a quick, frantic buzz; looking away or turning head away to look so that whites of eyes show ("whale eye"); dilated pupils. Dogs often bark out of fear, in an attempt to keep a distance between themselves and the Big Scary Thing, especially if they are cornered, fenced in, or on a leash.

Dogs that are aroused will often have their hair stand on end, usually the "hackles," the areas over the shoulders and just before the tail. This doesn't necessarily mean aggression, just that they are on high alert. Some dogs get "raised hackles" more easily than others; it's like some people who get red in the face very easily.

Have a look at this site here for pictures of body language:

How To Read Your Dog's Body Language | Modern Dog magazine - the best dog magazine ever

I would also suggest you stop playing tug of war with your dog. You may not always win and when you loose he thinks he's now the new Alpha. Each time you play you are allowing him a chance to show you he is quicker or stronger, stop for now and get your issues in order

Ty for the advice. Tug of war will be stopped and we are working on the new command give.

Susan

I play tug of war with mine regularly, the difference is, I always win.

We have a lot of fun pulling on the toys, they shake their heads and growl in an attempt to get it off me, but when I have had enough I say "ok, drop it" and the game is over.

It can become a problem with some dogs, you have to make a judgment call, but I find that it's a good way to make use of the "leave it" or "drop it" commands.

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Originally Posted by shazamataz

I play tug of war with mine regularly, the difference is, I always win.

We have a lot of fun pulling on the toys, they shake their heads and growl in an attempt to get it off me, but when I have had enough I say "ok, drop it" and the game is over.

It can become a problem with some dogs, you have to make a judgment call, but I find that it's a good way to make use of the "leave it" or "drop it" commands.

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I play tug of war with mine too. When the game is done, all I have to say is "stop" the toy is dropped, and I win.

It's a natural thing they do in the wild, to play. It can become an issue if it's done with dominance (on their part) or not as play, but I don't have an issue with "playing" tug of war with a dog.

My bird dogs don't play tug-o-war very well.. But my bully... She really gets into it. I love it! Her release of the toy is me grabbing her front foot... It's a game to see if I can catch it ;) Of coarse when I say "enough" she goes on about her business..

OMG! Lucky, Chewy and your pup could be twins! We do the foot catching game too. Chewy will tuck his legs under his belly to avoid being caught. It's hilarious because he totally loses his balance when he does that.

He can't stand having his front paws touched. His back paws, I could put them in a cast, paint his toe nails, you name it, he wouldn't care. His front paws, he hates it. He'll put up with it, and has learned to accept it when we need to do things (clip nails, vet appointments) but during play, he does the tuck, and avoids having them touched as much as possible. :)

Hahaha Cyrus is the same, you can't touch his front feet, bit of an issue at dog shows when he's on the table and the judge tries to check his feet, he tries to do a double somersault to keep his feet away from them.

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Originally Posted by Altenweg

OMG! Lucky, Chewy and your pup could be twins! We do the foot catching game too. Chewy will tuck his legs under his belly to avoid being caught. It's hilarious because he totally loses his balance when he does that.

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She'll go from side to side tucking her front legs under her while pulling. She's gotten very talented at it! SHe won't growl though.. Just recently I got her to kind of growl when we play... The only time she makes noise is when I tickle her... I roll her on her back and goose her belly.. Its hilarious!

We should all post videos of our dogs at play, it could be educational. The difference between a playful dog, and an aggressive dog.

Chewy will growl during play, but there's a big difference between his play growl "I'm having fun and just making noise" and his aggressive growl "Jasper, that's my bone, back off now or I will bite you!"

We're working on the aggressive growl. He doesn't do it with us, or Indy, only with Jasper. He doesn't even really have a reason to growl. If he has a bone, or a bottle cap, and Jasper walks by, he'll growl, as if he's protecting the bottle cap. The thing that makes no sense is that he'll willingly share the bone, or whatever he has, if Jasper tries to take it. As soon as he growls I just take it away and put it out of reach, tell him no, and it stops, until next time. :(

They eat out of the same bowl, sleep together, play together, they're best buds. But if Chewy is "guarding" something, Jasper is persona non grata. Makes no sense.

I like the video idea as that would help so much.

I would like clarification on the tug of war issue please. If I use the new commands "give" for when I want him to give me something(one of his toys) and leave it for when it is something he can never have(clothing), tug of war is all right as long as I end the game by making him give me the rope? I need to end the tug of war with me saying we are done and him giving up the toy?

I have been working on the give it command daily. I do it with him for about 10 min then hubby does it with him. As soon as he gives us the toy he is praised praised praised and given lots of attention. He is still learning the command and I will admit I have to wait for him to give me the toy. Though he seems to know what is expected and once or twice he ummm pushed the toy out of his mouth right away (best way I can explain it). I have not heard growling in awhile, though he has been ignoring his stuffy that he generally growls with. I use the toy he is playing with at the time we do the exercises.

He is a smart dog and I believe with us working with him he will learn this as well. Another trick he kind of taught us is we will hold two clenched fists out, one of which has his salmon doggy treats in it. He will sniff both and put his paw up on the hand that has the treat. He does not get it right every time . Funny how he taught us this trick originally we were just holding his treats and giving him commands such as sit, high five, shake, or down.

I also want to say I do appreciate all of you for the help with Owen and teaching me how to be the owner that he deserves. Owen and Ryu are 1 year old on the 16th.. where has the year gone? I have been trying my best with him and learning lots thanks to all of you!!

Susan

The leave it command is suppose to be concrete and whatever is being told to "leave it" should be kept off limits. However, if you are using a toy, you can give it to him after a half an hour.. he won't connect the dots.

If you are playing tug-of-war and want him to give you the toy, instead of "leave it", use the command "drop" or "give". He HAS to give the toy to you, but he can still play with it. My dogs know the difference between "leave it" and "drop it". When I taught obedience class, I always told my students that the "Leave it" command is for asprin or other toxic things a dog shouldn't have. "Leave it" is more serious then "give" or "drop it".

Miley is so funny with the puppy. She constantly growls at him and wrinkles her nose (we call it the ugly face).. Its completely harmless.. she is so gentle with him! But its still funny. He will chew her bone and steal it from her. He isn't scared at all of her grumblings.