Hi,

I had a question over something that happened to me recently. I had been subbing in a school district for about 6 months. I have no real strong interest to pursue teaching but this was something I was doing because I'm a recently college grad who can't find a job in the field I have a degree in. But anyway, I was due to cover a 6th grade reading class for a 3 day period. Things seemed to go well except I'd have the occasional trouble makers who would talk aloud or be disruptive. However, since the teacher left a quiz for the students when they came back, I felt a little bad about kicking anyone out.

I was surprised that at the end of the second day of subbing, I was called into the principal's office. She told me a parent had written a complaint in about me because I told a kid to "shut up" and apparently told the whole class they "were pissing me off." She asked about it and I told her when I said "shut up" it was jokingly and that there was no malicious intent in that since we were both smiling. She talked to me for about 5 minutes and then said she would talk to a couple of kids in that class.

As I was leaving her office, I spotted a paraprofessional I work with who was in the room with me for that period. I told him that someone's parents had written a complaint and he seemed just as shocked as I was. We talked about who it could be and what might happen. He seemed to believe the worst case would be that I'd be removed from covering future classes with the student whose parents filed the complaint. I even ask him if I've done anything wrong and he says "no." Even when asked about joking with that kid to "shut up," he says that the kid can take it because he's the sort to dish it out as well -- he wouldn't be offended by it. So we both figure it's the other student -- a girl who is simply a behavioral child. She is incredibly distracting and doesn't do work. The para tells me the normal teacher would just kick her out of class but at the time, I felt bad so I let her stay. Unfortunately, that's probably my big mistake.

Later in the day when I get home, I see my future subbing assignments have all been cancelled. I figured that's not a very good sign. So I wait. And I wait. I eventually go into the central office and ask what's going on. They tell me I have to call the superintendent and talk to her. Of course I call and can't get through so I leave a message. She calls me back and I ask her for an update (am I in suspension? Are things still being looked into?). After 5 days, I finally get a call back. The superintendent basically tells me I've been fired from all future subbing jobs. I ask her if anyone talked to the para in the room and she tells me "I'm not going to discuss it with you right now." So, I'm being fired and not allowed to ask questions? (Although I later found out from the para he wasn't talked to at all despite the fact he was in the room with me).

So I know because I'm a substitute teaching and work in a at-will state (Massachusetts) I can't really do anything about being fired (despite the fact I feel it's unfair). Although I heard from an old HS teacher whom I still keep in touch with that told me another sub had a similar incident happen to her except she's just not allowed to cover classes with the student who she has an issue with. She wasn't fired.

So my question is: Am I able to file a lawsuit in terms of loss of wages/defamation of character and possibly libel? Is there anything I could possibly do about the firing? The thing is, I haven't been able to see exactly what the complaint says. I truly believe the girl was angry at me for yelling at her in class for being a distraction and she told her parents a more extreme version of what actually happened. Technically, from what I was told from the principal about the complaint -- neither of those things directly even deal with the girl. The fact that I've been fired and have my character questioned bothers me, especially because I grew up in this school district.

Thank in advance for all the responses.

In MY area the School Board is the sounding board for these questions and problems. Your initial explanation that you were joking with the student; I notice at the very end you said you "yelled" at one of the students for being a distraction. Same student, same incident?

Did you "yell" at the student? In my area that is not acceptable behavior. Teachers are told to remove the disruptive child, not to engage with the child.

I would not be happy if you told my child to "shut up," joking or not.

If there are charges against you you are entitled to a hearing - I would make that request of the school board.

Would I pursue a lawsuit? No. It sounds like your future employment was tenuous, at best - no specific dates, times. I also would cringe from the publicity of this, but, yes, you are entitled to be heard.

No grounds for a suit here and just to be on the right track you are not an employee, so you aren't fired. They just will not be using your services any further. There is no right to work by a substitute teacher. I have been a sub, a teacher, Assistant Principal, Principal, Assistant Superintendent for HR so I know what I am talking about. If you subbed in my school and I decided for any reason I did not want you back that would be the end of the story. Your only option at this point is to try to convince the Principal that you are a better person than she currently believes. I slightly disagree with Judy on just one point. School Boards are policy makers and do not/should not involve themselves in personnel issues. They do not hire you, evaluate you or fire you so they have no say.

Thanks for your input. Also, I think you may be right in terms of the school board. Although, the superintendent here has a horrible reputation and she's leaving at the end of the school year anyway so I don't know if it's worth it.

My husband is on the school board in our area. They actually do get involved here in disputes between teachers, teachers and management, teachers and student/parents, teacher who are not granted tenure.

Must vary area to area.

Hi thanks for responding. The student whom I was joking with and the one I "yelled" at are two different students. The one whom I was joking with and told to "shut up" (and I'll admit it was more of a slip than anything) had a para actually tell him once to "cut the sh-t" in class, so far worse things have been said to him than what I've done. The issue with subbing in this area is probably than there is no introduction on how to act in a classroom with unruly children. They give you a binder and let you go. Until this incident, I had never even met the principal. As far as yelling at the student, she really was acting out. I thought if there was a para in the room, she would at least control herself better than she did. I let her stay because I was supposed to sub for 3 days and at the end of the day, her teacher was to come back w/ a quiz prepared for 3 chapters of the story they were all reading. I thought I'd give her a chance to follow along in class.

I understand your explanation but I don't think it changes the facts - "shut up" may very well be deemed inappropriate; yelling may very well be deemed inappropriate.

Sounds like the "para" was unprofessonal. Doesn't excuse you.

If the Superintendent won't give you any info, if you feel the School Board won't help, retain an Attorney and ask for an explanation and/or paperwork.

Hey Judy, I understand but "do not/should not " is covering both bases. Boards should not do many things that they decide to do. Boards should not be involved in any operational aspect of the school but they often do. I would be very much surprised if any board with get involved with hearing about a sub who is being shunned.

It's just an unfortunate mess that probably could have been avoided if I had went with my gut instinct of kicking this girl out of class. I guess my problem was that I was a little worried she might come back the next day and maybe be even worse in terms of acting out/distracting her classmates whom all had work to do. But thanks again for your input.

Well, hindsight is 20/20. Yes, it sounds like she's a problem and her parents are a WORSE problem.

Another reason I'm not a school teacher, sub or otherwise.

It's a lot tougher than I thought. I thought I might enjoy being in the classroom and being able to teach others and I figured subbing would be okay in terms of making a little extra money. But with this happening and the mess it's caused, I don't even know anymore. I actually have a journalism degree... despite the lack of jobs really, maybe it's time I head back towards that field.

I'm sorry you went through that. I went through a similar situation in California. I subbed for districts in Indiana anywhere from just under a year to just about four years (I added districts over time so I could work more) and quit when I moved to California four months ago. I got on the sub list for the town I live on, as well as for two other districts and there was a similar situation with me (except I didn't say "shut up" other than by telling kids, "I don't like it when others say 'shut up'; I'd rather you say 'be quiet' instead.") In fact, I just heard "that principals complained," and I think I know of two of them; one was three weeks before I was told "We are no longer using you as a sub" and heard NOTHING about it; in fact, I was subbing for the other 7 schools in the district, PLUS another district (the third one didn't call me as I signed up late in the year and they only have 12 teachers and they even let subs know there's not much of a chance of working more than 10 days a year because of the amount of subs they have and the fact there's only 12 teachers), so I didn't notice if I was dropped from a list, as I never got a call, email, letter, or an in-person talk. I'm going to post my dilemma. I just worry what to put on applications, or if I can get away with not listing it, as I also tutor for two tutoring companies AND am still registered with two temp agencies I got assignments from, AND have subbed for the first district I started subbing for in California. Another district in my county says they don't let others know if "you're not a good fit for the district, which is what I was told", so maybe I don't have to worry about the other two finding out. I just worry what will happen when I apply for some jobs at three private schools I'm applying to, or if I leave that district off. I'm still in the system for the other two districts and like I said, subbed for two districts (in another state) for four years and never had any kind of word of anything negative; in fact, I subbed for one of them up until 2 days before I moved and was requested by teachers I didn't even know.

Truthfully, I only stayed with the district that dropped me because I really needed the money and couldn't find another job until now (and even that's an on-call job dealing with the developmentally disabled, so it's not exactly glamorous, but it's a job and involves helping people and it's a way to make money in the summer). I was OK with half their schools, and still, just like always, did my job as best as I could and didn't show I was unhappy when I worked at the schools I wasn't happy with.

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Originally Posted by ballengerb1

... you are not an employee, so you aren't fired. ...

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Teachers are not employees? What are they?

If I hired a man to cut my lawn for one day would you consider him to be an employee? A sub has no daily assignment, position or benefits. They are somewhat of a day laborer. I do not say this in a disrespectful manner, especially since retiring I have become one of them. They only work when they are called, if they are not called I would not consider them to be fired.

I had a situation of an acting out 8th grade classroom. They were very disrespectful. I wrote the lesson plan we were to follow through out the day on the white board. They did not follow the plan. They just acted out. I said nothing inappropriate. I repeated what was on the board. Their behavior got worse. I sent 3 to the Principles office which was a joke because they were sent right back to me in 5 minutes. One student knocked a desk over another actually vandalized a desk. I decided at lunch break I had my full and that it was time for the school to find another sub for the rest of the day. I've never done well with middle school but I took the job because I needed the money. I really thrive with the elementary school students. Anyway, I went to the main office told them the situation and that I would stay long enough for them to find another sub. They said there were no other subs. I told them they were not doing the lesson plan at all and that I wasn't going to babysit them. Then the Principal comes in and tells me to leave and that he would see to it I wouldn't be able to sub for that district again. I said fine and left. I emailed the Administrative Personnel Director and explained how the whole day went and he emailed me back saying thank you for letting him hear my side of the story and that he would look into it and see if I could continue to sub at elementary level schools. I never heard back after 3 weeks. So I boldly emailed him back and said I hesitate to email you, I know how busy you are, but have you had time to get performance reviews from the elementary schools I had subbed for in that school district. I got no response. It is very unfortunate for me I have been on hold at this district because I got the majority of my work from this district. And I am not having much luck applying for other school districts in my area. Do I have a leg to stand on?

You couldn't handle your class, which is part of your responsibilities as a teacher. You also left in mid-day, without someone to sub for you.

They don't want you back.

What do you want from them?

What do you mean by having a leg to stand on? There is no right to work as a sub, each district can use or not use whoever is qualified and certified.

I had a situtation arise where I was accused of racist remark. It was disturbing on many levels, but the really disturbing thing was that nothing even remotely like that happened in that classroom, the students were all sitting right in front of me as I held up a picture book while the CD was playing the words! I contacted a lawyer and he gave me this information: according to the law (Pulwecki) substitute teachers are indeed dual employees of both the company who sends them out AND the school district they sub in. Therefore, I am entitled to view any and all records that this district has on me.

I have contacted their HR. My lawyer has emailed their lawyer, it is now 6 months since I first asked, and no records.

But I was allowed back into the classroom and back into that school. However, it just feels unsafe to continue to substitute teach. Too precarious, with two HR departments, neither of which had ever met me or spoken to me.

Schools do have real problems with subs and their first responsibility is to the well-being of their students. I don't blame them. The entire system is screwy, and ultimately something bad will happen because of it. The addendum to that is that subs are easiest to throw under the bus. Blame the sub works well for lots of issues that they would like to cover up.

You are responding to a very old thread. I suggest you express your comments in a new post so that others may benefit from your input.

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