Hello to everyone!

I feel very lucky to find this excellent forum!

First of all I would like to apologize for my poor English which is not my mother language.

I've read the FAQs and stickies, but I would appreciate if you could make some things clearer to me, since I have problems understanding a few of the advices.

But let me introduce myself.

I am an electronics engineer, living and working in Cyprus (the South/Greek part) and I am a huge Honda fan.

I bought one year ago a Honda Civic 93 (92-95 model) LSI (with the sunroof). The condition of the car was excellent at that time, like a brand new. I am the second owner and when I bought it, it had 120.000 miles on it.

One year after, I've made another 20.000 miles with it and especially this last 2 months the car started braking apart :-(

In just two months, I had to change the radiator (the original broke), the water pump, the timing belt twice, because the first time after a few miles the ruleman(gear?) of the timing belt broke and needed replacement, the battery and finally these small metal bars that connect the steering wheel with the front wheels of the car (don't know the english name).

Also, I think the catalytic converter needs replacement, because in low rpm (below 1500) the exhaust makes a very loud cracking noise which disappears when I accelerate.

Now, about my problem, which is of course belongs to the infamous category "My Honda Civic won't start".

I don't have real problem at this time, it only happens occasionally, but when it happens it's a real pain in the butt.

The "won't start" problem falls in 2 categories.

1) When the car is not used for a day or two, when I try to start it, the car makes a noise like the battery ran out. I turn the key and the car makes just a "voom" noise for less than a second and stops. After a few tries the car finally starts with a very "lifeless" sound.

This problem started a few days ago and I and the mechanic thought that my battery was dead. We replaced the battery with a new one, but the problem stays.

2) When I have driven a lot (I drive about 60 miles every day) and stop to a shop for a few minutes, I always turn off my car. When I return to my car, the car starts immediately when I turn the key, faster than when the engine is cold, but with a very "lifeless" sound. Now, this problem was happening from the first time I bought my car, but since the engine started always, I didn't mind the "lifeless" sound".

But the last days (same days with problem 1), when I return to my car after the quick stop, the car doesn't want to start:

I put the key and turn it to position II. The "Engine Check" light turns ON and after a few seconds it turns off, while at the same time I hear the usual humming noise (I think it's the sound of the fuel pump). Also I hear the relay clicking once or twice, together with the "Engine Check" light. All these are completely normal and haven't changed.

But when I turn the key, the car doesn't start. All the sounds are completely normal when I turn the key (the "gr gr gr gr gr" sound), but the car doesn't start. And the "Engine Check" light turns ON and stays ON until I turn the key back to position I. Eventually, after many tries and after leaving the car for a few minutes to relax, it will start.

This is my problem and because I've spent a lot of money the last two months on the car, I would be grateful if you could help me finding out the problem and perhaps fixing it myself.

I am a very capable electronics engineer, but my knowledge falls short on cars.

I've read the FAQs, and the first thing that you suggest is finding out the Error Code. Now, to read the Error Code, do I need to short these pins that you mention, or I can just turn the key in position II and look at the red light?

If I have to short these 2 pins, where do I find them? I am aware of the fuse box that is close to the steering wheel. Are the pins there? Or they are near the red light, which is located in this metal box under the carpet in the passenger's seat?

Thanks in advance for your help and again sorry for my poor English

1. Perform the K-Test on your ECM. Read sections A and B below:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-t...ics-46563.html

2. Make sure the general electrical system is in good shape; i.e. new NGK spark plugs, spark plug wires, rotor, distributor cap, ignition control module (igniter), coil, and main relay. In my opinion, all of these components should be replaced at 120,000 miles or 10 years, whichever comes first. This really even applies to the computer.
3. The following sounds like your ignition switch may be bad:

"But when I turn the key, the car doesn't start. All the sounds are completely normal when I turn the key (the "gr gr gr gr gr" sound), but the car doesn't start. And the "Engine Check" light turns ON and stays ON until I turn the key back to position I. Eventually, after many tries and after leaving the car for a few minutes to relax, it will start."

Playing with the key, in order to get the car to start, is normally an indication the ignition switch needs replacing. There's one contact for Position II and another for Start. Apparently, there's wear on the Start contact (likely pitted).

Thank you very much for your extremely fast answer.

It took me sometime to answer you because I study the Helm's manual to understand the best I can of what you suggested to me.

Your guides are very detailed and I hope they will be useful to find out what's happening.

In your guides, you say that the most important questions, in which we must answer "Yes" are:

1) The CEL turning on and after a few seconds off
2) When the CEL tuns off, if we hear the main relay click
3) During the second interval the CEL is on, if we hear the fuel pump.

In all these basic questions, the answer is yes.

The problem starts after I turn the key to the start position and the problem depends on the engine's temperature.

If the engine is warm, the car will start immediately but with a "lifeless" sound, or more recently, the engine cranks but doesn't start and the CEL turns ON and stays this way until I turn the key to position I. When I said about a "gr gr gr gr" sound, I meant exactly that: That the engine cranks(I learned this word from you) but doesn't start.

If the engine is cold or the car wasn't used for a day or two, the engine doesn't crank and behaves like the battery died.

The electrical components seem just fine, especially all the wires seem like brand new. Perhaps they replaced them before I bought the car. But they look like brand new. But I cannot say the same for the electromechanical parts. They don't look worned out or corroded in any way, but they don't look new like the wires.

Also, I take the car for service always every 10.000 miles. That includes every filter, oil, sparks etc etc. I have made 9000 miles since the last service. Also, two weeks ago I used this "STP Jet-fuel"-whatever, that you put in your fuel tank and it's supposed to clean all the fuel system.

So, the first thing to try tomorrow morning is to check all the fuses, in the dashboard and under the hood.

Afterwards, I disconnect the MAP connector and check the voltage between connector and ground. If I am not mistaken, the MAP connector is behind the engine, in the middle.

Afterwards, check the Error Codes, by shorting these specific pins, which I read in the manual that must be located in a cable that is near the ECU (?)

I don't think I'll manage to do all the other tests, since I have to go to work first thing in the morning, so I'll leave the rest for the day after tomorrow.

What confuses me, is the 2 different variations of the problem, depending on cold or warm engine.

Now, is there anyway to check the ignition switch since you think that might be the real problem?

PS: Thanks again for your fast answer

See if this helps:

How to replace the ignition switch

I would focus on the ignition switch, Ignition Control Module, and coil, if your ECM passes the K-Test. I would also make sure the fuel filter has been recently changed.

Hello txgreasemonkey,

Thanks again for your advices.

Today morning I checked all the fuses and did the K-test (Map sensor voltage test).

Everything was fine as I suspected.

Since the car starts just fine and the problem occurs only one or two times a week, even if the problem is the ECU, I believe there is no way to check it out if the problem isn't there at the time you make the measurements.

I tried to force the problem to come out: I started and turned off the engine a few times in the morning, but the car always started OK.

After I came to work and the engine was warm (I drove for 35 miles with a speed of 80 miles/h), I turned off the engine, left it for a few minutes and then tried to start the engine. Again no luck. The engine started just fine.

I think the problem has a tendency to occur only in the most inconvenient moments.

So, I thought that the ECU should have stored the error in its memory and I tried to read the codes.

I tried to locate the ECU, as seen in the Helm's manual. I pulled off the carpet in the passenger's seat and I was surprised by the small size of the ECU. It is a very thin little black box, attached near the door by a metal plate. The box is sealed and only a cable protrudes from the top side of the box.

The box is about half an inch thin, about 4 inches or less wide and maybe about 10 inches long.

The problem is that I didn't locate any LED on the box or around that location. Also I didn't find the cable that has the 2 error code pins on it. There is just the cable that comes out of the black box.

I turned the key on position II, hoping that the red LED would turn on, in order to see and locate it. No light on the ECU or near that region at all.

In the list with the Civic error codes, there are codes for ignition, fuel system, fuel pressure etc etc, so I hoped to find out the problem by reading my car's Error codes.

Could you help me locate the 2 pins and the red LED?

Tomorrow morning I will try to take out and dissasemble the ignition switch to look at the contacts. But in Helm's manual, it says that you have to drill(destroy) the screws that keep the ignition switch in place. Is this the case? Or I can unscrew them with a special tool or something?

In the guide that you posted for replacing the ignition switch, it doesn't mention anything particular about those specific screws.

Update:

Upon closer and more thorough examination, the little black box is not the ECU. Actually the black box sits on a quite big silver box which I assume is the real ECU.

Also, under the fusebox of the dashboard, I found a thick cable from which a 2-pin connector protrudes. Is this the 2-pin "Check error codes" connector?

The 2-P Service Check Connector, on U.S. Civics, is located just under the dash, about 1/2 inch from the passenger side kick wall. If it has never been used before, it's secured in a small rubber mount. Carefully pry it out--it is blue. The other 3-P connector in the rubber mount is the Data Link Connector, which dealers use. Once you located the SCC, jump it with a paper clip, and turn the ignition switch to Position II. The Check Engine Light on the dash will then flash, if there are any codes. If the ECU is bad, it may not flash any codes--that's what happened on my failed ECU and was characteristic of many other people's failed ECUs I've worked with. You won't have the red LED. Yes, the large silver box is the ECU, which has a 26 pin A connector, 16 pin B connector, and a 22 pin D connector.

I don't believe you will have to drill any screws out, to remove the ignition switch. That's if you have to replace the ignition lock assembly (See section K of my "Sticky").

Txgreasemonkey, I cannot thank you enough for your extraordinary help.

You didn't have to tell any of these stuff to me, but here you are, trying to explain with so many details.

I am grateful to you.

The 2-pin connector that I told you about is is secured in place with a blue plastic insulation tape (the type that we electronic engineers use a lot to electrical-insulate contacts and naked wires). So it is safe to assume that this is the SCC connector, but I'll check if there are other 2-pin connectors in that area just in case.

Tomorrow morning I'll try reading the Error Codes (if any) and try to disassemble the ignition switch to check it.

I'll keep you updated.

The SCC and DLC, on Civics in the U.S. Canada, and United Kingdom that I have worked on, are mounted next to each other in a blue rubber mount. First, look for the rubber shock mount and see if the 2-P connector you are looking at could have come from there . If you can't find it, use your judgment.

Thanks again.

I'll keep in mind that.

One of the most basic things in electronics is to never short-circuit anything before knowing 100% what's going on.

In my case, I don't think I'll be 100% sure, but I'll try my best.

Have you checked your Haynes Manual, to see what it looks like?

Yes, I checked it, and it looks exactly the same.

But, there is no 3-pin connector next to it, and the place I found it is different from the place you suggest.

In Cyprus, cars are the same with Japanese and the wheel is on the opposite side, so everything is placed in the opposite side from the European and US etc etc cars.

So, the connector that I found, is kept in place with blue tape and that is the only similarity with your description.

So, the most probable thing is that this connector is not the one we want, even if it's the only two-pin connector that I found.

Tomorrow I'll do a thorough search under the dash, since I haven't looked in the places that you suggest.

Ok.

Read section H on ignition switch replacement:

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/cars-t...tml#post224652

Hello txgreasemonkey.

It's been some time since my last update, but unfortunately I had to travel abroad for business purposes.

I removed the ignition switch, didn't dissasmble it, but the cables and their contancts seem just fine.

I finally discovered the SCC connector! It was above the ECU, hidden very well and it was difficult to pull it out.

I checked for Error Codes.

Only one code appeared all the time: 16 = Fuel Injector

Now, since my last update, I went my car for service and I also replaced the catalytic converter and the exchaust.

I saw some increase in performance but nothing remarkable.

(I found the Error Code after I went my car for service, so they didn't check the injection system.)

But the problem continues and it even got worse:

In the morning the car starts really hard, like the battery is dead and also, whenever the engine is warm, the car don't want to start but it's exactly the opposite with the morning's situation: Now the battery seems alive, the starter works but the engine doesn't want to start.

Could it be an injection problem?

I spoke to a Honda mechanic in Greece (I live in Cyprus) and he is 100% certain that the problem is with the main relay and not with the injection.

Well, I am confused.


PS: I read in your maintenance guide that a well-cared Honda can last for up to 350.000 miles. But, if you do all the proper maintenance, what happens and the car won't last for more than 350K?

Update 2:

You know, you should become an official Honda mechanic/manager or something like that.

I searched more in your guides and you mention exactly that:

That when the engine is not starting when warm and the ECU gives ERROR CODE 16, the first thing we have to check/replace/fix is the Main Relay.


Because the link that you provide for fixing the Main Relay doesn't work, I googled a little and found the below guides:

http://techauto.tripod.com/mainrelay.htm

Honda Main Relays


So, I removed my Main Relay, pulled it out from the plastic enclosure and re-soldered all the contacts. Some of the contacts didn't seem very strong.

I re-soldered all of them.

Now, I'll wait to see if the following hours/days the problem occurs again.

If it occurs, I'll go buy a new Main Relay.

I'll post again tomorrow to tell you how the car behaves with the resoldered Main Relay.

Glad for the update. I was wondering how you were doing. Look forward to hearing from you.

With a Code 16, start the engine and listen for a clicking sound coming from each fuel injector. A mechanic's stethoscope is ideal, but not necessary. If you find an injector that doesn't click, turn the ignition switch OFF, disconnect its 2P connector, and measure the resistance between the 2 terminals of the injector. Is there 10 to 13 ohms? If not, replace the injector.

What were the results of the K-Test?

Hi again.

I am still at work, so I didn't had a chance to check the injectors (I re-soldered the main relay on my break for lunch).

The K-Test results were OK. But I didn't do the confirmation test. I only checked the voltage on the MAP connector.

Edit: In your guides I didn't find something about the injectors. Where do I locate them and how do I remove them?

I know of the black box behind the engine which says on it "Dual Point Programmable Injection System)

Are the injectors in there?

Your English is fantastic, by the way.

An injector is located 3.5" behind each spark plug. They have an internal solenoid that sometimes fails. Easy access. You will see a 2P connector going to each injector.