Hello:

I've castigated the Tea Party on these boards for SAYING they love limited government, all the while supporting the massive intrusion into our lives by the new Papers Please state we live in...

I was wrong. They stepped up to the plate yesterday by defeating a GOP plan to extend many of the particularly noxious parts of the Patriot Act. It's probably only a temporary set back. Pressure WILL be brought to bare...

But, I'm thrilled to be aligned with my civil libertarian brothers, if only for the short term.

The establishments of both political parties - whether because of actual conviction or political calculation - are equally devoted to the National Security State, and the endless erosion of core liberties they entail. Partisan's generally pretend to care about such liberties only when the OTHER party is in power, but they quickly ignore or even justify the destruction of those liberties when THEIR OWN party wields power. Democrats screeched that Bush was "shredding the Constitution" for supporting policies which Barack Obama now enthusiastically supports. Rightwingers - who spent years cheering on every Bush led assault on basic Constitutional limits in the name of terrorism - flamboyantly read from the Constitution during the Obama era as though they venerate that document as sacred.

Yup, The war on civil liberties is a fully bipartisan endeavor. Both of 'em make me puke. Is the Tea Party going to lay down?

excon

Got a name for you... Najibullah Zazi... terrorist foiled from committing an attack on the NYC subway system by provisions of the Patriot Act you complain about .

30 plots foiled since 9-11 .

His bomb ingredients included wmd type chemicals

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Originally Posted by tomder55

30 plots foiled since 9-11

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Hello again, tom:

Certainly, a police state does offer advantages. It's just not my cup of tea - nor do I believe was it our founders...

The hope of this nation, was that others would follow in our footsteps... As it turns out, we're following in theirs - with YOUR full support.

excon

Catching terrorists hell bent on waging war against ,trying to mass murder Americans seems to me like a worthy and proper role for the national government .Catching them before they attack is the ideal ,and that is what the Patriot Acts helps do.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

catching terrorists waging war against ,and trying to mass murder Americans before they attack, seems to me like a worthy and proper role for the national government .

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Hello again, tom:

If one wants to ignore history, one could say that... However, if you remember, my position was, and still is, to have gone after those who attacked us with EVERYTHING we had. That's what we did in WWII thereby keeping the war OFF our shores...

But, Bush DIDN'T DO that. Instead, he tiptoed lightly around Afghanistan and got more than 4,000 of our soldiers killed. And, we haven't gained A THING! Bin Laden is living out his years, and laughing at us.. Nope. We didn't go after him... Instead, we turned the full force and fury of the government against OUR OWN citizens - with your FULL SUPPORT.

IF we were attacked because of our freedoms, we should have DOUBLED DOWN on our freedoms, instead of taking them away - thus proving Bin Laden right and helping him in his quest.

But that was then, and this is now.. Bin Laden won.

excon

Someone who embraces the provisions of the 16th amendment doesn't have much of a leg to stand on when on a soap box about the loss of individual freedoms.Why don't you complain about the freedoms lost to the demands of the IRS with the same gusto as you do against the NSA. They have their different means ,but I'd say the IRS knows much more about you and every other American than the NSA ,DHS combined .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I'd say the IRS knows much more about you and every other American than the NSA ,DHS combined .

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Hello again, tom;

Actually NO. I have a defense against the IRS, and I use it liberally. I have NO defense against the NSA spying on me.

But, back to our OWN hypocrisy. It struck me as quite bizarre yesterday, when on the very day that Obama demanded that Egypt repeal its 30 year old "emergency law", he demanded that we enact the extension of America's own emergency law - The Patriot Act.

It's an "emperor not wearing any clothes" kind of moment.

excon

Can't argue with you there . The soundest argument against the Patriot Act is the question of who wields the power behind it . I concede that point. I would also agree that provisions of this and every other statute on the Federal Register should be subject to sunset provisions so fresh debate over it's utility can take place in the halls of the lawmakers.

I think the Republicans error was in the procedure they applied to the vote. When push comes to shove most of the Patriot act will be yet extended because the threat has not passed.

Lets see now . There was almost zero chance of an air attack against major US cities in WWII . Yet curfews were established and 'lights out mandates ' were enacted . Restrictions on the use of tires and autos were established... mandatory rationing for typewriters, sugar, gasoline, bicycles, footwear, fuel oil, Silk, Nylon, coffee, stoves, shoes, meat, lard, shortening and oils, cheese, butter, margarine, processed foods (canned, bottled and frozen), dried fruits, canned milk, firewood and coal, jams, jellies and fruit butter happened by the time the war effort was in full swing. Citizens were issued rationing stamps for the very basics of life . Gasoline was virtually impossible to get . Most people put their cars on blocks . Consumer spending was discouraged by a prohibition on credit cards and consumer credit.
Oh yeah... Japanese Americans were unconstitutionally interned into concentration camps.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_...g_World_War_II
The very few instances of penetration by enemy infiltrators were dealt with quite harshly by defacto executive order .
http://cryptome.sabotage.org/prez-killer.htm
When I compare the loss of freedoms during WWII to the threat today,where it has been established many times that the enemy has infiltrated ,I can only think that our reaction has been restrained .

Heck ,PC has prevented us from even naming the enemy !

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Originally Posted by tomder55

When I compare the loss of freedoms during WWII to the threat today,where it has been established many times that the enemy has infiltrated ,I can only think that our reaction has been restrained .

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Hello again, tom:

Well, there you go... Since FDR already trashed the Constitution, why do we need to respect it now? Hell, it's every man for himself.

But, your point is well taken... That's why I have trouble with torture... Even though Obama isn't going to torture, and even though the next president might not torture, and even the one after that...

But, as long as we DIDN'T prosecute the torturers, and left the torture memo's in tact, some president down the road is going to do it, and people like you will justify it by pointing out that some other president did it first..

The Tea Party (and me) have it right.. We either obey the Constitution or we don't.

excon

I don't think the Tea Party is any single entity. It is made up of people from all parts of our country who are fed up with excessive taxation, spending, and the trashing of the culture that made this nation great. They also value human life and integrity. I identify with that grass-roots movement even though I have no specific link to it. That is the strength of the movement. No slimy politician can get control of it; it is decentralized. And those who fill its ranks have become very watchful, thanks to the internet, Fox News, and Email.

I would be interested in the breakdown on this vote . There are some 50 something members of the House in the 'tea party caucus ' . There were 26 Republicans who voted this measure down ( a measure that will ultimatelty pass when Boehner wipes the tears away and learns how to count votes ) .Of the 87 frosh Republicans only 8 voted against the extension.