Hello,

I have a background in dog breeding and have read up on dogs quite a bit. My family has a two year old AKC Australian Shepherd, "SALT", maiden *****, who is about 10 pounds in size. I am aware that Miniature Australian Shepherds or North American Shepherds as a breed is a hotly debated topic, but she was given to us. Nevertheless, she is a great dog, healthy, with excellent temperament. She is similar in size to a Schipperke. She is our only dog.

Salt has infrequent estrus cycles and since she is a toy (less "mess" when in heat) I missed this one. It was 5 A.M. in the middle of our first snowstorm when she slipped away as I was unhooking her lead to bring her inside. She was gone for about 30-40 minutes and finally turned up as I was bundling up to go for a walk in the snowstorm. Once I brought her indoors, I noticed that she is well into her second heat.

We live in a small town, in a neighborhood mainly populated with Chihuahuas, but a few large dogs. Any of the dogs that I know of personally are neutered. I'm guessing that the chance of Salt finding romance in a dark snowstorm at 5 a.m. is, at least, minimal.

To make a long story short, does anyone happen to know what the average wiggle room is for a "safe" breeding of a larger dog to a smaller *****? My memory of teacup breeds (4 to 6 lbs) is that a c-section might be needed for even a 1 pound difference. But, this is an active, healthy herding breed more the size of a Schipperke or extra tiny Shetland Sheepdog. Even if you don't know the answer yourself, but have an idea where I might inquire, I would appreciate it. I tried looking for such a thing as a Mini/Toy Aussie breeders forum, but its hard to find much information relating to this "pseudo" breed.

My plan is to walk the neighborhood a little to see what intact dogs might have been available (AKA running loose or tethered). I'll watch for signs of pregnancy over the next few weeks. On the bright side, it is usually pretty easy to observe physical changes to indicate pregnancy the first time a ***** is in whelp.

My preference is not to have her altered at this time, so I want to wait and see first. Hopefully, we are lucky and she just played in the snow for a while. My preference for leaving her intact has a few reasons, and I don't wish to offend anyone or enter into a heated discussion. Suffice it to say that I'm trying to manage what's best for her health and my family, and my personal opinions are formed from my own study and experience with dogs. (No, I don't want to proceed with a pregnancy that might require C-section. Yes, I know exactly how much cost and effort goes into raising a litter. Yes, I would keep the puppies myself or carefully find homes for them, IF she were to have them.)

I apologize profusely for being so wordy with my question. I just know that pet lovers can sometimes be quite impassioned over topics like spay/neuter and that I'm treading on borderline politically-incorrect ground here. I'm just hoping to spare any misunderstandings in advance by explaining myself a little more.

Thanks so much!

It's really hard to say, there is a little 'wiggle room' as you say but when dealing with any small breed that wiggle room is very small.

You say you don't want to proceed with a pregnancy which may require a c-section but you really will not know for sure until the time comes.
Vet can do an ultra sound fairly early into the pregnancy and determine how many puppies and check their development and size and you may be able to terminate the litter then if they are going to cause problems for the b*tch. If you leave it too late though this will require surgery either way.

Are Mini Shepherd AKC recognised? (sorry, I am in Australia and they aren't here)
Does the AKC have a code of ethics like we do here that does not permit members to cross breed?

Edited to add: There is a Miniature Shepherd club, their wesite is here, unfortunately they don't appear to have a forum, but there is a list of upcoming events you might be able to attend to chat with breeders.

I know you said you don't want to get into a heated debate regarding breeding. You must understand that many of us here do rescue work and you will find some people may give you a hard time. That is the risk you take asking questions on a free advice website where anyone is allowed to post. You can't dictate how someone responds to you so please be aware of that.

If you have a background in dog breeding, then you know that more than one stud can be the "daddy" of one litter. Therefore, she could have been impregnated by both a chihuahua AND an Irish Wolfhound if they came into contact with her while she was in heat. Please don't waste any more of your time trying to figure out which dog in your neighborhood is the culprit. My suggestion is to call your vet, speak to him/her as to how early he/she can confirm whether she is carrying a litter. Then get into the vet's office with your dog as soon as possible around that date. If she isn't pregnant, then there is nothing to be concerned about. If she is pregnant, you need to get advice from your vet. He/she is the one who can tell you whether carrying the litter to term is placing your dog's life at risk.

I am going to give you some food for thought here. I am sure your dog is a sweet girl. However, she was given to you for free and her cycle is irregular. She is a breed that is not currently recognized by the AKC and has been a hot button topic in the dog world. You don't know what genetic mutations/health issues she may carry and pass along to a litter. All of this points to the general conclusion that she is not what the majority of responsible breeders would consider good breeding stock. I strongly urge you to contact The North American Miniature Australian Shepherd Club of the USA, and have a serious discussion with someone who loves the breed about whether you should ever consider breeding her. Here is their link:Home page Frankly, I think they will advise you to spay her.

*edit* sorry shazz. I didn't see your response until after I posted. I think we both posted the same site (which really isn't a bad thing In my opinion :) ).

Just as an FYI, Shazz & I actually posted two different web sites. The one I posted does have a discussion list which is posted on this page (scroll down the page and you will see three links):
Resources

I agree completely JAL, would have said something very similar had I known they were not yet recognised.
Interesting that there are a few clubs for them though, they must be more popular than I thought.

To get a breed recognised it takes a lot of hard work and you really have to be strict about what stud dogs and b*tches are used in your breeding program, any deviation outside the current standard and you can have big problems with the AKC and they can reject the application.

I have done a bit of research into the breed since my first post and the OP's b*tch is seriously undersized and should be spayed anyway. It is far too big of a deviation from the breed standard.
With already recognised purebreds breeding a slightly smaller or slightly larger dog is a risk you can take, if the puppies end up slightly over or under the measure they can still be shown, and judges may turn a blind eye, but with a breed trying to be recognised the AKC will scrutinize every bad move breeders make.

Thanks everyone for the suggestions, particularly Just_Another_Lemming's quote:

If you have a background in dog breeding, then you know that more than one stud can be the "daddy" of one litter. Therefore, she could have been impregnated by both a chihuahua AND an Irish Wolfhound if they came into contact with her while she was in heat. Please don't waste any more of your time trying to figure out which dog in your neighborhood is the culprit. My suggestion is to call your vet, speak to him/her as to how early he/she can confirm whether or not she is carrying a litter. Then get into the vet's office with your dog as soon as possible around that date. If she isn't preggo, then there is nothing to be concerned about. If she is pregnant, you need to get advice from your vet. He/she is the one who can tell you whether carrying the litter to term is placing your dog's life at risk.

That's a good reminder of what I already know. I guess it's pointless to worry about it. I'll just have to spay her if she shows signs of pregnancy. I prefer to prevent matings than to neuter if I can get away with it. My last dog (Fila Brasileiro) was almost 7 when a stray jumped the fence and bred with her. I promptly brought her in to be spayed, but she died of hemorrhaging shortly after surgery. For me, I don't like to put my own female dog through a major surgery unless it is necessary (accidental mating, for instance). I know that sterilization is the only practical option for dogs/cats in general but, for myself, I try to just be extra careful and put off the surgery as long as I can. (Neutering a male is a little different and I don't consider that to be major surgery or big decision if he's just a family pet.)

In response to...

I know you said you don't want to get into a heated debate regarding breeding. You must understand that many of us here do rescue work and you will find some people may give you a hard time. That is the risk you take asking questions on a free advice website where anyone is allowed to post. You can't dictate how someone responds to you so please be aware of that.

I appreciate the thoughtful/patient responses. I don't mind debate but I have a lot of social anxiety, so I am actually fearful of being "yelled at", even if it is on a web forum. :) In the end, I am a fairly reasonable person when it comes to pet ownership and responsibility.

Mini Australian Shepherds are not AKC recognized. She was given to me with AKC registration so she is, on paper, just an "Australian Shepherd". I didn't bother sending in the registration since she obviously is not a true Australian Shepherd. I know that the minis broke off into the "North American Shepherd" breed, and perhaps her particular bloodline was quietly kept registered with the standard shepherds. I don't know.

She was given to us by my mother who bought her from a breeder. All that I know about this breeder is that she had a Mini Aussie kennel and all of her dogs were in the 10 pound range, so Salt was not a runt or direct mutation, rather the result of selective breeding.

I believe that Salt is a purebred Australian Shepherd, from an ancestry that was selectively bred not to meet the breed standard, but to miniaturize. In other words, she's quite tiny which means she is not an Australian Shepherd by the breed standard, but I feel pretty sure she isn't part Pomeranian or some other hybrid. Every Toy Australian Shepherd I have seen online so far looked like it was part pom. But, this dog has the classic herding dog temperament and train-ability and has the conformation of a pet quality or working line shepherd.

My opinion is that, in an ideal world, creating a new breed is no worse than propagating an existing breed. Theoretically, a toy Australian Shepherd is a great idea. Salt has the attitude of a big dog, so she is fearless and happy to cavort with two active children (ages 4 years and 24 months). She is easy to manage in our busy home because she learns commands so readily, is confident, but is small enough to be able to get her exercise by running through the house with our son. Plus, since she is a shepherd, she helps me catch our Button Quail whenever they escape!

In a perfect world, those who aspire to develop a new breed would recognize it as a lifetime project and not something to be started on impulse. I'm well aware of the current American pandemic of so-called hybrids, and I assume it is the result of AKC's adoption of stricter regulations. Anymore, it's cheaper and easier for commercial breeders to market mutts and so stay under the radar.

I think that Salt would be a fine pet-quality specimen of a Toy Australian Shepherd, but I have no evidence that this "breed" actually exists. I am an idealist, so I prefer to defend the hypothetical concept of responsibly developing new breeds than to make sweeping judgments of the disaster backyard breeders are making of it in practice.

I have no interest in breeding this dog (I just wanted to put off spaying if I could), and I'm not personally even a fan of shepherds. Generally, they have no business in pet homes anyway since they were bred to work flocks.

Salt is simply the random dog that was given to us, who happened to fit in nicely. Our four year old considers her his best friend and treats her as a sentient equal. I haven't had the heart to tell him that she can't actually understand everything he says to her. When she ran away, he called out into the night, "Salt, remember me? This is Lazarus! I was your best friend and you loved me!"

I appreciate your thoughtful response. Since your intention is not to breed your girl, I think it would be wise to spay her, whether she is pregnant or not. I know you don't like the idea of surgery but there are two reasons for doing this. Number one is simply to avoid accidental pregnancies. She has already proven she will find a way to get out from under your supervision when she is in heat. In my opinion, your vigilance just won't be enough to prevent an unwanted pregnancy. Since her cycle is irregular, this makes it impossible to take the usual precautions. Number two is simply for health reasons. If you spay her, you won't have to worry about the cost and stress that comes with the possibility of ovarian or uterine cancers later on down the road. As a kid, I lost my 5 year old Westie to uterine cancer. In those days, no one "fixed" their dogs (yes, I am an old dog!). To say I was devastated is an understatement. Since Salt is your son's best friend, spaying her would be the most logical way to go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kagemann

My personal opinion is that, in an ideal world, creating a new breed is no worse than propagating an existing breed.

---

The operative words here are "in an ideal world." LOL! Well, we can cordially agree to disagree. You obviously have a good grasp on the situation regarding irresponsible breeders in the United States. I am not going to get into a discussion of how these people have created and perpetuated genetic disorders in this country. On a very basic scale we can simply take a look at the lineage of GSD's in the U.S. as opposed to Germany. They don't have the inherent hip dysplasia in Germany that our dogs have here.

Speaking of hip dysplasia and genetic disorders, did you look at the web sites we gave you? These toy dogs are prone to hip dysplasia, eye disorders, and lethal white, all of which I find very concerning. Please take a look at this link if you haven't already done so. Health
I am glad Salt appears very healthy. Hopefully she will always be that way but please keep in mind she is a young gal yet. Since she is a newer breed, you should take notes and keep the community informed of any health issues you encounter as she ages. The responsible breeders will find this info invaluable in helping them to get the recognition they desire from the AKC. Regarding Salt's breeder, I find it curious that she only gave you paperwork for a regular Australian Shepherd. According to the web link I gave to you, they do register and keep a very close eye on these dogs. Registry Rules and Regulations If you haven't already done so, get in touch with them &/or their discussion group(s). If I were in your shoes, if nothing else I would want to know as much as possible about Salt's breeder. Is she breeding responsibly or is she unknown to them? If she is unknown to them, THEY need to know about her. These people do love the breed and if someone is breeding without their knowledge, it could really screw up their chances for AKC recognition. In contacting these people, you will also find a supportive & informed online community that will help you if Salt encounters any health issues down the road. You might also find a new friend or two!

By the way, if you get a chance, maybe you can post a pic of her? I would love to see what Salt looks like. :)