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When I started my truck for work the other morning one of the stations that my sat radio goes over is Catholic radio. Anyhow while I was waiting for my sat radio to power up I was listening to one of the more famous Catholic prayers. Hail Mary full of grace etc. It got me to thinking, is this not praying to Mary? And if not then how do you justify this as not praying to Mary?
Prayer ? Where would you see a prayer, it is an intersession asking her to go to Jesus for us.
It is merely asking her to pray for us, just as you may ask members of your church to pray for you
So if that is a prayer to her, then you would be praying to members of your church when you ask them to pray for you for things also
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit
Of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
Mother of God,
Pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of death.
Donn,
I am Catholic and for me, the Hail Mary is both a prayer that honors Mary and asks for Mary's assistance.
AS in:
Hail Mary full of Grace. The Lord is with Thee. Blessed art Thou among women. And Blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary Mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death. Amen
Hail Mary,
Full of Grace,
The Lord is with thee.
Blessed art thou among women,
And blessed is the fruit
Of thy womb, Jesus.
Holy Mary,
All of the above is in the Bible.
Mother of God
If she's the Mother of Jesus, and you believe that Jesus is one of the Persons of God, then Mary must be the Mother of God.
Pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of death.
In the Bible we are encouraged to ask others to pray for us.
So the "Hail Mary" is basically from the Bible
The last line is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
Um, no. She's the mother of Jesus. Jesus was/is the human incarnation of the Son, one member of the triune godhead. "Mother of God" implies - nay, says - that she's the mother of the entire godhead. Unless you want to say that Jesus/the Son is the entirety of God, the logic doesn't track.Quote:
Mother of God
If she's the Mother of Jesus, and you believe that Jesus is one of the Persons of God, then Mary must be the Mother of God.
Except for the above caveat, I agree. That one part doesn't track for me, but the rest is quite biblical.Quote:
pray for us sinners now,
And at the hour of death.
In the Bible we are encouraged to ask others to pray for us.
So the "Hail Mary" is basically from the Bible
I am equating "full of grace" with "holy".
God is one in three persons:
God the Father,
God the Son and
God the Holy Spirit
Okay, thanks for the clarification.Quote:
Originally Posted by RickJ
Agreed.Quote:
God is one in three persons:
God the Father,
God the Son and
God the Holy Spirit
Who happens to be God.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Here's the logic.Quote:
Jesus was/is the human incarnation of the Son, one member of the triune godhead. "Mother of God" implies - nay, says - that she's the mother of the entire godhead.
Unless you want to say that Jesus/the Son is the entirety of God, the logic doesn't track.
Except for the above caveat, I agree. That one part doesn't track for me, but the rest is quite biblical.
Jesus is God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
Mary is Jesus' mother.
Therefore Mary is the Mother of God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity.
I hope that helps.
I understand the logic. It's just faulty. Jesus is also fully man, therefore there is no reason for Mary to have to be mother of "God," she is simply mother of the human, the catalyst (so to speak) that brought about the hypostatic union. If Jesus were *only* God the Son and had no humanity, then your logic would track. But that's not the case, so it doesn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Where did the hypostatic union occur? Before or after Jesus came out of the womb?Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Yes, it does. Did Jesus die on the Cross?Quote:
If Jesus were *only* God the Son and had no humanity, then your logic would track. But that's not the case, so it doesn't.
Because if Jesus died on the Cross and Jesus is God. Then it stands to reason that God died on the Cross.
And the same logic applies to His Birth. If Jesus is was born of Mary and Jesus is God, then God was born of Mary.
There you go.
Thus the impossible divide among those not Catholic, they will admit Jesus is God, and Mary is his mother, but it stops there.
Grew up catholic. Do not practice catholicism now. Am christian.
Christs teachings were about tearing down evil social constructs and seeking social justice.
When we have that cleared, then ill spend time on whether "holy mary" is blasphemous or honorary.
To coin a phrase: Huh? I don't see what that question has to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
Do you deny Jesus' humanity, then? Somehow I find it hard to believe that such a view accurately represents Catholic dogma.Quote:
Yes, it does. Did Jesus die on the Cross?
Because if Jesus died on the Cross and Jesus is God. Then it stands to reason that God died on the Cross.
And the same logic applies to His Birth. If Jesus is was born of Mary and Jesus is God, then God was born of Mary.
There you go.
Agreed. Though I think you meant "between Catholic and non-Catholic." Correct me if I'm mistaken.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck
That's why you don't understand the hypostasis. Jesus was God from the moment He was conceived. God went through the birth canal. God was born of Mary. God sat on Mary's lap. Mary held God in her arms and fed him at her breast. Mary is the Mother of God.Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
The Title, Mother of God, was used to defend the true nature of Jesus, the God man from the Nestorian heresy.Quote:
Do you deny Jesus' humanity, then?
Believe it.Quote:
Somehow I find it hard to believe that such a view accurately represents Catholic dogma.
The Orthodox and all the ancient Churches, the Copts and such, all believe that Mary is the Mother of God. It is the late coming Reformers who changed the Gospel of Jesus Christ thus fulfilling the prophecy:Quote:
Originally Posted by dwashbur
Galatians 1:8
But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed.
Therefore, if God the Father is God, then Mary is the mother of her father.Quote:
Originally Posted by De Maria
There you go.
On the contrary, Mary is the Mother of God the Second Person of the Holy Trinity, whose name is Jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Athos
Dwash, I know well that the "logic" of the argument is "faulty" to some... but keep in mind that the "Catholic" and "Protestant" view of God as "One in Three Persons" is the same.
99% (loosely speaking) of Christians agree with the Doctrine of the Trinity.
Those who believe it should also agree that it is a "Mystery" that we cannot explain fully in human terms.
... But as far as the "bottom line" goes, we should be in agreement: God is One but/and in 3 "Persons":
The Father (God the Father)
The Son (God the Son), and
The Holy Spirit (God the Spirit).
"He came down from Heaven"
Uh, sure, and Docetism is so much better, because that's what you sound like.Quote:
The Title, Mother of God, was used to defend the true nature of Jesus, the God man from the Nestorian heresy.Quote:
Do you deny Jesus' humanity, then?
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