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Hello, can anyone help me?
Here, in John 3:13, it says that no one has gone to heaven except for Jesus.
I am confused because I know that in the old testament Enoch one day disappeared because God had taken him, and then Elijah as well, who was taken in a charriot of fire.
So what does Jesus mean in John 3:13?
Greetings Vox;
Go up, as taken in John 3:13, is also in 1:18 and 6:62, meaning to ascend. Christ Jesus was the only one to Ascend into heaven, on His own power, and not be assumed into heaven like Enoch and the others.
Put in this context, since Christ Jesus was before all, and was, is and always shall be, as God He and only He alone can ascend into heaven as prophesied.
Peace,
RC-CIC
Cherepes
This scripture in the N.T. Is speaking of the eternal heaven. The O.T. Scripture is speaken of the second heaven. There was no eternal promise of heaven or hell in the O.T.
Gee, Dave, Where did you come up with that? ;D ;D ;D
The New Covenant as instituted by Jesus via his death made the heavenly reward possible. Before the New Covenant was instituted, there was no provision for this reward. If we carefully pay attention to what Jesus says to his followers during the Last Supper, we will see that Jesus links the provision of the heavenly reward with his own death. He dies so that where he is so too his followers might go.
So when the Bible tells us that no one had ascended into heaven before Jesus, it means that no human that had ever died prior to Jesus had ever been gone to heaven before Jesus.
Enoch's transference was a visionary one.
Elijah's chariot flight was within the confines of our atmosphere which is aso referred to as heaven.
Hey guys listen, If "No man has ascended into Heaven by his own power." Then it all makes sense
But also note that when Enoch & Elijah was Taken up into Heaven, I believe they were the 1st
To be [Raptured Up] into heaven and given immortal bodies as I Thessalonians 4:17 describes.
Also note that, they never died a physical death so...
Could they be the 2 Witnesses we read about in Revelation 11:3-13? Who are killed and then
Called back to heaven? Could it be that, because all the old testament saints & new testament
Saints died, that Enoch & Elijah are sent back to earth in their mortal bodies to die?
The two witnesses mentioned in revelation are both post rapture Jews and Christians who will become believers during the tribulation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Quest2570
Revelation 12
1And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
7And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
12Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! For the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.
16And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The remnant is the two witnesses, both Jews and gentile believers!
cherepes,
That was very well answered by you.
I'm glad to see you here.
Come back often we need your wise input.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Hi Vox
I can only comment on what the Bible says. With over 2000 different christian religions you will obviously get many different answers.
BUT as far as the Bible says, NO man went to heaven before Jesus.
God took Enoch, but not to heaven, and the Bible does not mention a second heaven or anything like that; Enoch was just taken away.
As far as what can be seen from the Bible, no man did go to heaven, that is why Jesus had to come to earth and pay the price for man's sins.
If man already went to heaven before Jesus and man goes to heaven after Jesus, then Jesus did nothing for man.
Before Jesus came to earth, man would simply lay sleeping in death until the day when they would be resurrected.
I Newton,
Sorry, but I MUST disagree.
Jesus was the only man that ascended to heaven under His own power as the Man/God.
In the Old Testament several were TAKEN to heaven to live there.
Also Jesus told us of others living there for God is "the God of the living".
We also know from the biblical account that Moses and Elijah were living in heaven for they appeared with Jesus during Christ's transfiguration.
As you can see there are several indications that many others were in heaven before Jesus ascended, but that they were taken there and did not ascend.
When you and I go to heaven it will be because we were taken for we can not ascend.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
By what means do people go to heaven before the resurrection of the dead? In Gen 2:7 it says "Adam became a living soul"; he was NOT given one. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that man was GIVEN a soul! Shamayim, Hebrew for sky, was translated heaven in 2 Kings 2:11. So Elijah was taken up into the sky. If people go to heaven before The Resurrection on the Last Day (John 6:54, 11:24), by what means is this achieved?
By what means do people go to heaven before the resurrection of the dead? In Gen 2:7 it says "Adam became a living soul"; he was NOT given one. Nowhere in the Bible does it say that man was GIVEN a soul! Shamayim, Hebrew for sky, was translated heaven in 2 Kings 2:11. So Elijah was taken up into the sky. If people go to heaven before The Resurrection on the Last Day (John 6:54, 11:24), by what means is this achieved?
Hi Vox, you might find the thread titled "If death passed to all men by one man's sin, how did they live?" an interesting read as it focuses on the same subject. As I Newton stated, there are different views regarding this verse so pray for guidance.
This old argument is meaningless. Biblical writers speak of "my soul" and such and even talk to it occasionally. "Soul" in Gen 2:7 has a preposition before it, "to" or "for," so it doesn't precisely say that he "became a living soul." There's plenty of wiggle room. Plus, there's Ecclesiasties 3:21 which refers to the spirit of the man that goes upward, so it's still an open question.Quote:
Originally Posted by BroAndrew
And then what? He was dropped on his head? Shamayim sometimes meant sky and sometimes meant heaven as in the abode of God, depending on context. Incidentally, Vox, Elijah wasn't taken up in a flaming chariot. The chariot was there to keep Elisha from trying to stop what was happening; Elijah was taken to heaven in a whirlwind.Quote:
Shamayim, Hebrew for sky, was translated heaven in 2 Kings 2:11. So Elijah was taken up into the sky.
It's a physical resurrection, obviously. It has nothing to do with whether a person's soul/spirit goes to heaven between their death and the resurrection.Quote:
If people go to heaven before The Resurrection on the Last Day (John 6:54, 11:24), by what means is this achieved?
Jesus gave us a clue in the account of the rich man who went to Hell.
He saw Abraham on the other side of an impassable void, but Abraham was not in Heaven, but in Paradise.
That appears to have been the place of the departed righteous before the resurrection of Jesus, with Hell being the place of the departed rebels.
Hell is not the Lake of Fire, because we are told that Hell will be cast into the Lake of Fire.
Incidentally, Satan has never been in Hell. He will be imprisoned for 1,000 years and then go directly to the Lake of Fire.
don't forget that god is outside of time. He is at all times in all part of time/space/matter. Christ dying fot the sins of man coverd all of sin across all of time. So whether 2000 years pre-christ or 2000 years post christ. The one death covers it all. Thus men could be called/taken/ascend into heaven at the will of the father, cause the price was already paid.
No one has ever gone to heaven... Heaven is Yahweh's throne... Hebrews, chapter 11 tells us that Enoch died, along with others, looking for the promise.. see verses 5 and 13. And Elijah was taken up in a whorl wind... not a chariot of fire.. he was taken by Yahweh to another place to teach the Word. Sorry to be so short.. We need to believe every word of the scriptures.
In Yahshua,
Cleveland
You know what you said the one word that make sense of this verse, and that is context. Too many people are taking this verse out of context, context, context. How do we ever know the meaning of any verse without first reading the previous verses. Jesus in John 3:13 is speaking to Nicodemus, and in the v, 12 he say, I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall you believe, if I tell you heavenly things. Jesus is speaking to Nicodemus about his concerns of being born again which is a spiritual thing. He explains to him no man has ever ascended into heaven to bring back information concerning the spiritual things of God, except me, the one who came down from heaven. Jesus, is saying to Nicodemus that is why you don't understand. People are trying to make this scripture to be that no man on earth has ever gone to heaven, or we do not go to heaven when we die. We know better than that from Elijah, and Enoch. And as far as going to heaven when we die oh yes we do. Ecclesiastics 12:7 Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it.
No that is not what the scripture say in Hebrew 11:5 By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.Quote:
Originally Posted by crmann
The scripture do not say a word about Elijah being taken anywhere else to preach the scriptures. You have taken the word of God out of context.
Messiah. In verse 10 Paul shows that to abide in this kingdom we must "walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing." This is exactly what Enoch did. He walked with Adonai, and pleased Adonai. Then Enoch, the same all true believers, was delivered from the power of sin and darkness in which he had been living for sixty-five years. He was removed (translated) from the ways of the world and lived three hundred years according to Adonai’s ways so that he might inherit eternal life at Messiah Yeshua’s return, and should not suffer the second death. By faith Enoch was separated—removed or translated—from the world, the same as all true believers who are not to be a part of the world, although living in the world. Not only was Enoch FIGURATIVELY taken from the society of his day, but he was also LITERALLY removed—translated—so that he was not found. Adonai took him physically away from the people, just as He later took Moses. And Adonai buried each so well that neither has ever been found since! Enoch had completed this present normal life. "All his days were three hundred sixty-five years." This was the second translation—a literal removal at death. Adonai gave Enoch this sign of physical removal as a type for all those who should later follow Enoch’s example of faith. He was taken physically from the people just as all true believers are to be spiritually removed from the ways of the world. The physical translation or carrying away of Enoch was also a sign to him from Adonai that his faith had been accepted. Like every true believer, Enoch is awaiting the hope of the resurrection and the return of his Master, Messiah Yeshua. (Jude 14, 15).
If you're still following me, I can also explain to you about Elijah..
In Yeshua,
Cleveland
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