My question is purely analytical in nature--I am not trying to condemn, convert, persuade in any way. I say this because I see a lot of emotional outbursts concerning religion on this page. My question is simply this: I know that the Mesiah according to the Jewish writings had to meet specific prophecies. I know that learned Jews reject the fact the Jesus did not meet these. Which of the prophecies were not met? Also, if any one could direct me to a site which would list all the prophecies there were for the Jewish Mesiah, I would appreciate it. Thank you.

Go here

http://solospirit.net/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&...2&m=1446005213

The link I cited above is no longer in existence.

What you're basically asking is the difference between Judaism and Christianity.



Judaism teaches that every person is responsible for their own actions and that the Torah is the source that G-d has given mankind to guide us through life. Judaism is a purely monotheistic faith. Being Jewish is defined as being born Jewish and/or converting to Judaism. Judaism does not actively seek converts. Judaism teaches that for a person to be qualified as Messiah, that individual must and will fulfill the criteria which is to bring about G-d's universal kingdom of justice and peace on earth.



Christianity teaches that no matter the actions of a person, that you must accept Jesus whom is fractionalized as one-third divine. Christianity emphasis original sin and an embodied spirit (an angel) called Satan with power to rebel against the Creator and cause destruction upon humanity. Christianity has taught the expected return of Jesus going on some two thousand years after his death. Christianity regularly missionized.




Bobby

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

What you're basically asking is the difference between Judaism and Christianity.


Christianity teaches that no matter the actions of a person, that you must accept Jesus whom is fractionalized as one-third divine. Christianity emphasis original sin and an embodied spirit (an angel) called Satan with power to rebel against the Creator and cause destruction upon humanity. Christianity has taught the expected return of Jesus going on some two thousand years after his death. Christianity regularly missionized.


Bobby

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Bobby you have just wriiten nonsense. Jesus is not one third devine but 100% God

Perhaps this will help you to see that the Jews should not reject Jesus


"And beginning at Moses and all the prophets, he expounded unto them in all the scriptures the things concerning himself." And verse 44 notes, "And he said unto them, These are the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and the prophets and the psalms, concerning me."
Jesus Christ himself said, "For if you believed Moses, you would believe Me; for he wrote about Me" (John 5:46, NKJV). Likewise, Christ's disciples taught that He fulfilled Old Testament prophecy (e.g. Acts 3:18; 17:2-3; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4).

Prophecies about the Messiah

A prophet like unto Moses.

"The LORD your God will raise up for you a Prophet like me from your midst, from your brethren. Him you shall hear, according to all you desired of the LORD your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the LORD my God, nor let me see this great fire anymore, lest I die.' And the LORD said to me: 'What they have spoken is good. 'I will raise up for them a Prophet like you from among their brethren, and will put My words in His mouth, and He shall speak to them all that I command Him. And it shall be that whoever will not hear My words, which He speaks in My name, I will require it of him'." (Deuteronomy 18:15-19, NKJV).

Like Moses, the Messiah would be a leader, a prophet, a lawgiver, a deliverer, a teacher, a priest, an anointed one, a mediator, a human and one of God's chosen people (a Jew) performing the role of intermediary between God and man—speaking the words of God—and like Moses, the Messiah would offer himself to die for the sins of the people. Both Moses and Jesus performed many miracles validating their message. As infants, both their lives were threatened by evil kings, and both were supernaturally protected from harm. Both spent their early years in Egypt. Both taught new truths from God. Both cured lepers (Num 12:10-15; Matt. 8:2-3) and confronted demonic powers. Both were initially doubted in their roles by their siblings. Moses lifted the brazen serpent to heal all his people who had faith; Jesus was lifted on the cross to heal all who would have faith in Him. Moses appointed 70 elders to rule Israel (Num. 11:16-17); Jesus appointed 70 disciples to teach the nations (Luke 10:1, 17). And there are many other parallels between the lives of Moses and Jesus.

The Messiah would be a descendant of Noah's son, Shem. Noah said, "Blessed be the LORD God of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant. God shall enlarge Japheth, and he shall dwell in the tents of Shem; and Canaan shall be his servant (Gen. 9:26-27).
Noah associated Shem especially with the worship of Jehovah, recognizing the dominantly spiritual motivations of Shem and thus implying that God's promised Deliverer would ultimately come from Shem.
…)

More specifically, he would be a descendant of Shem named Abraham ( Genesis 22:18; 12; 17; 22). Fulfilled: See Christ's genealogy in Matthew 1.
he would be a descendant of Abraham's son, Isaac, not Ishmael (Gen. 17; 21). Fulfilled:

More specifically, he would be a descendant of Isaac's son, Jacob, not Esau (Gen. 28; 35:10-12; Num. 24:17). Fulfilled:
More specifically, he would be a descendant of Judah, not of the other eleven brothers of Jacob. Fulfilled: More specifically, he would be a descendant of the family of Jesse in the tribe of Benjamin (Isaiah 11:1-5). Fulfilled: he would be of the house of David (2 Samuel 7:12-16; Jeremiah 23:5; Psalm 89:3-4). ; Luke 1:27, 32, 69. Note: Since the the Jewish genealogical records were destroyed in 70 A.D., along with the destruction of Jerusalem and the Temple, it would not be possible for a Messiah imposter who was born later to prove his lineage back to David and thus fulfill this prophecy.

He will be born in a small city called Bethlehem, specifically the one formerly known as Ephratah (Micah 5:2). Fulfilled: Luke 2:4-20.
He will be born of a virgin (Isaiah 7:14). Fulfilled: Matthew 1; Luke 1.

The Messiah would be the "seed of a woman" come to destroy the work of the Devil. Not long after Creation, God prophecied to the serpent Satan, "And I will put enmity between you and the woman, And between your seed and her Seed; He shall bruise your head, And you shall bruise His heel" (Genesis 3:15). The "seed of the woman" can only be an allusion to a future descendant of Eve who would have no human father. Biologically, a woman produces no seed, and except in this case Biblical usage always speaks only of the seed of men. This promised Seed would, therefore, have to be miraculously implanted in the womb. In this way, He would not inherit the sin nature which would disqualify every son of Adam from becoming a Savior from sin. This prophecy thus clearly anticipates the future virgin birth of Christ.

Satan will inflict a painful wound on the woman's Seed, but Christ in turn will inflict a mortal wound on the Serpent, crushing his head. This prophecy was fulfilled in the first instance at the cross, but will culminate when the triumphant Christ casts Satan into the lake of fire (Revelation 20:10).

In the New Testament, Christ's apostle John confirms that this was His Master's purpose, "He who does what is sinful is of the devil, because the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the devil's work" (1 John 3:8). (Also see: Hebrews 2:14; Revelation 20:10.)

He will be a priest after the order of Melchisedek (Melchisedec) (Psalm 110:4). Fulfilled: Hebrews 5:6

The scepter shall not pass from the tribe of Judah until the Messiah comes. In other words, He will come before Israel loses its right to judge her own people. The patriarch Jacob prophecied this:

The sceptre shall not depart from Judah, nor a lawgiver from between his feet, until Shiloh come; and unto him shall the gathering of the people be. (Genesis 49:10)

:This important prophecy has been strikingly fulfilled. Although Judah was neither Jacob's firstborn son nor the son who would produce the priestly tribe, he was the son through whom God would fulfill His promises to Israel and to the world. The leadership, according to Jacob, was to go to Judah, but this did not happen for over 600 years. Moses came from Levi, Joshua from Ephraim, Gideon from Manasseh, Samson from Dan, Samuel from Ephraim and Saul from Benjamin. But when David finally became king, Judah held the scepter and did not relinquish it until after Shiloh came. "Shiloh" is a name for the Messiah, probably related to the Hebrew word for "peace" (shalom) and meaning in effect, "the one who brings peace."

According to the Jewish historian Josephus, the Sanhedrin of Israel lost the right to truly judge its own people when it lost the right to pass death penalties in 11 A.D. (Josephus, Antiquities, Book 17, Chapter 13). Jesus Christ was certainly born before 11 A.D.

Read the rest at:

Messianic Prophecies (WebBible Encyclopedia) - ChristianAnswers.Net

Quote:

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Originally Posted by paraclete

Bobby you have just wriiten nonsense. Jesus is not one third devine but 100% God

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Brian, I disagree. No matter how much God you think Jesus is, the trinity theology is taught in most Christian circles and is formulated to be "Father (1), Son (2), and Holy Ghost (3)." Without his third portion, your divine concept is incomplete.




Bobby

From Aish.com with link included at the end of the article.

"It is important to understand why Jews don't believe in Jesus. The purpose is not to disparage other religions, but rather to clarify the Jewish position. The more data that's available, the better-informed choices people can make about their spiritual path.

Jews do not accept Jesus as the messiah because:

1) Jesus did not fulfill the messianic prophecies.
2) Jesus did not embody the personal qualifications of the Messiah.
3) Biblical verses "referring" to Jesus are mistranslations.
4) Jewish belief is based on national revelation.

At the end of this article, we will examine these additional topics:

5) Christianity contradicts Jewish theology
6) Jews and Gentiles
7) Bringing the Messiah
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1) JESUS DID NOT FULFILL THE MESSIANIC PROPHECIES

What is the Messiah supposed to accomplish? The Bible says that he will:
A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)
D. Spread universal knowledge of the God of Israel, which will unite humanity as one. As it says: "God will be King over all the world -- on that day, God will be One and His Name will be One" (Zechariah 14:9).

The historical fact is that Jesus fulfilled none of these messianic prophecies.

Christians counter that Jesus will fulfill these in the Second Coming, but Jewish sources show that the Messiah will fulfill the prophecies outright, and no concept of a second coming exists.
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2) JESUS DID NOT EMBODY THE PERSONAL QUALIFICATIONS OF MESSIAH

A. MESSIAH AS PROPHET

Jesus was not a prophet. Prophecy can only exist in Israel when the land is inhabited by a majority of world Jewry. During the time of Ezra (circa 300 BCE), when the majority of Jews refused to move from Babylon to Israel, prophecy ended upon the death of the last prophets -- Haggai, Zechariah and Malachi.
Jesus appeared on the scene approximately 350 years after prophecy had ended.

B. DESCENDENT OF DAVID

The Messiah must be descended on his father's side from King David (see Genesis 49:10 and Isaiah 11:1). According to the Christian claim that Jesus was the product of a virgin birth, he had no father -- and thus could not have possibly fulfilled the messianic requirement of being descended on his father's side from King David!

C. TORAH OBSERVANCE

The Messiah will lead the Jewish people to full Torah observance. The Torah states that all mitzvot remain binding forever, and anyone coming to change the Torah is immediately identified as a false prophet. (Deut. 13:1-4)
Throughout the New Testament, Jesus contradicts the Torah and states that its commandments are no longer applicable. (see John 1:45 and 9:16, Acts 3:22 and 7:37)
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3) MISTRANSLATED VERSES "REFERRING" TO JESUS

Biblical verses can only be understood by studying the original Hebrew text -- which reveals many discrepancies in the Christian translation.

A. VIRGIN BIRTH

The Christian idea of a virgin birth is derived from the verse in Isaiah 7:14 describing an "alma" as giving birth. The word "alma" has always meant a young woman, but Christian theologians came centuries later and translated it as "virgin." This accords Jesus' birth with the first century pagan idea of mortals being impregnated by gods.

B. CRUCIFIXION

The verse in Psalms 22:17 reads: "Like a lion, they are at my hands and feet." The Hebrew word ki-ari (like a lion) is grammatically similar to the word "gouged." Thus Christianity reads the verse as a reference to crucifixion: "They pierced my hands and feet."

C. SUFFERING SERVANT

Christianity claims that Isaiah chapter 53 refers to Jesus, as the "suffering servant."
In actuality, Isaiah 53 directly follows the theme of chapter 52, describing the exile and redemption of the Jewish people. The prophecies are written in the singular form because the Jews ("Israel") are regarded as one unit. The Torah is filled with examples of the Jewish nation referred to with a singular pronoun.
Ironically, Isaiah's prophecies of persecution refer in part to the 11th century when Jews were tortured and killed by Crusaders who acted in the name of Jesus.
From where did these mistranslations stem? St. Gregory, 4th century Bishop of Nanianzus, wrote: "A little jargon is all that is necessary to impose on the people. The less they comprehend, the more they admire."

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4) JEWISH BELIEF IS BASED SOLELY ON NATIONAL REVELATION

Of the 15,000 religions in human history, only Judaism bases its belief on national revelation -- i.e. God speaking to the entire nation. If God is going to start a religion, it makes sense He'll tell everyone, not just one person.
Judaism, unique among all of the world's major religions, does not rely on "claims of miracles" as the basis for its religion. In fact, the Bible says that God sometimes grants the power of "miracles" to charlatans, in order to test Jewish loyalty to the Torah (Deut. 13:4).
Maimonides states (Foundations of Torah, ch. 8):
The Jews did not believe in Moses, our teacher, because of the miracles he performed. Whenever anyone's belief is based on seeing miracles, he has lingering doubts, because it is possible the miracles were performed through magic or sorcery. All of the miracles performed by Moses in the desert were because they were necessary, and not as proof of his prophecy.
What then was the basis of [Jewish] belief? The Revelation at Mount Sinai, which we saw with our own eyes and heard with our own ears, not dependent on the testimony of others... as it says, "Face to face, God spoke with you..." The Torah also states: "God did not make this covenant with our fathers, but with us -- who are all here alive today." (Deut. 5:3)
Judaism is not miracles. It is the personal eyewitness experience of every man, woman and child, standing at Mount Sinai 3,300 years ago."
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From Aish.com with link included at the end of the article.

"5) CHRISTIANITY CONTRADICTS JEWISH THEOLOGY

The following theological points apply primarily to the Roman Catholic Church, the largest Christian denomination, and the one most familiar to the Western world.

A. GOD AS THREE?

The Catholic idea of Trinity breaks God into three separate beings: The Father, the Son and the Holy Ghost (Matthew 28:19).
Contrast this to the Shema, the basis of Jewish belief: "Hear O Israel, the Lord our God, the Lord is ONE" (Deut. 6:4). Jews declare the Shema every day, while writing it on doorposts (Mezuzah), and binding it to the hand and head (Tefillin). This statement of God's One-ness is the first words a Jewish child is taught to say, and the last words uttered before a Jew dies.
In Jewish law, worship of a three-part god is considered idolatry -- one of the three cardinal sins that a Jew should rather give up his life than transgress. This explains why during the Inquisitions and throughout history, Jews gave up their lives rather than convert.

B. MAN AS GOD?

Christians believe that God came down to earth in human form, as Jesus said: "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Maimonides devotes most of the "Guide for the Perplexed" to the fundamental idea that God is incorporeal, meaning that He assumes no physical form. God is Eternal, above time. He is Infinite, beyond space. He cannot be born, and cannot die. Saying that God assumes human form makes God small, diminishing both His unity and His divinity. As the Torah says: "God is not a mortal" (Numbers 23:19).
Judaism says that the Messiah will be born of human parents, and possess normal physical attributes like other people. He will not be a demi-god, and will not possess supernatural qualities. In fact, an individual is alive in every generation with the capacity to step into the role of the Messiah. (see Maimonides - Laws of Kings 11:3)

C. INTERMEDIARY FOR PRAYER?

The Catholic belief is that prayer must be directed through an intermediary -- i.e. confessing one's sins to a priest. Jesus himself is an intermediary, as Jesus said: "No man cometh unto the Father but by me."
In Judaism, prayer is a totally private matter, between each individual and God. As the Bible says: "God is near to all who call unto Him" (Psalms 145:18). Further, the Ten Commandments state: "You shall have no other gods BEFORE ME," meaning that it is forbidden to set up a mediator between God and man. (see Maimonides - Laws of Idolatry ch. 1)

D. INVOLVEMENT IN THE PHYSICAL WORLD

Catholic doctrine often treats the physical world as an evil to be avoided. Mary, the holiest woman, is portrayed as a virgin. Priests and nuns are celibate. And monasteries are in remote, secluded locations.
By contrast, Judaism believes that God created the physical world not to frustrate us, but for our pleasure. Jewish spirituality comes through grappling with the mundane world in a way that uplifts and elevates. Sex in the proper context is one of the holiest acts we can perform.
The Talmud says if a person has the opportunity to taste a new fruit and refuses to do so, he will have to account for that in the World to Come. Jewish rabbinical schools teach how to live amidst the bustle of commercial activity. Jews don't retreat from life, we elevate it.
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6) JEWS AND GENTILES

Judaism does not demand that everyone convert to the religion. The Torah of Moses is a truth for all humanity, whether Jewish or not. King Solomon asked God to heed the prayers of non-Jews who come to the Holy Temple (Kings I 8:41-43). The prophet Isaiah refers to the Temple as a "House for all nations."
The Temple service during Sukkot featured 70 bull offerings, corresponding to the 70 nations of the world. The Talmud says that if the Romans would have realized how much benefit they were getting from the Temple, they'd never have destroyed it.
Jews have never actively sought converts to Judaism because the Torah prescribes a righteous path for gentiles to follow, known as the "Seven Laws of Noah." Maimonides explains that any human being who faithfully observes these basic moral laws earns a proper place in heaven.

For further study of the Seven Laws of Noah, see:

Bnei Noah of Fort Worth
Web search

Path of the Righteous Gentile
Noahide Laws, The Seven - Jewish Knowledge Base
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7) BRINGING THE MESSIAH

Maimonides states that the popularity of Christianity (and Islam) is part of God's plan to spread the ideals of Torah throughout the world. This moves society closer to a perfected state of morality and toward a greater understanding of God. All this is in preparation for the Messianic age.
Indeed, the world is in desperate need of Messianic redemption. War and pollution threaten our planet; ego and confusion erode family life. To the extent we are aware of the problems of society, is the extent we will yearn for redemption. As the Talmud says, one of the first questions a Jew is asked on Judgment Day is: "Did you yearn for the arrival of the Messiah?"
How can we hasten the coming of the Messiah? The best way is to love all humanity generously, to keep the mitzvot of the Torah (as best we can), and to encourage others to do so as well.

Despite the gloom, the world does seem headed toward redemption. One apparent sign is that the Jewish people have returned to the Land of Israel and made it bloom again. Additionally, a major movement is afoot of young Jews returning to Torah tradition.

The Messiah can come at any moment, and it all depends on our actions. God is ready when we are. For as King David says: "Redemption will come today -- if you hearken to His voice.""
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Rabbi Shraga Simmons
Aish.com

Ask the Rabbi - Jesus as the Messiah

__________________________________________________ _____



Bobby

Hello Ramona,

Here is an essay I wrote on this subject a few years ago.

Qualifications to be the Messiah

Many missionaries argue that Jesus was “uniquely qualified” to be the Messiah.

In Jewish Law, in order to be the Messiah, one must be alive. There is no concept in the Torah that discusses the idea of Messiah rising from the dead. This is a fallacy made up to justify the death of Jesus before fulfilling the prophecies of Ezekiel, Zechariah and Isaiah.

Furthermore, in order to be the Messiah, one must be of patrilinial decent from the house of King David. Since Jesus, according to Christian Theology, had no father (or rather "G-d was his father"), he can not be of patrilinial decent from anybody, much less King David. On the other hand, if Christians admit that Joseph was Jesus' father, then he is no longer a deity or son of a diety, but only human.

Therefore, because of his death, and his “lack of a father” (according to the Christians), Jesus was not qualified to be the Messiah according to Jewish law.

What the Messiah Must Do

Another of the “proofs” that many missionaries use is to put forth all of Jesus' “accomplishments”.

However, there are only four requirements for the Messiah in Jewish Law. In order to be the Messiah, one must do the following things before he dies.

- He must build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28)
- He must gather all the Jews back to the Land of Israel (Is. 43:5-6)
- He must usher in an era of world peace and bring an end to hatred, oppression, suffering and disease (Is. 2:4)
- He must spread the knowledge of the G-d of Israel, uniting the entire world as one (Zechariah 14:9)

In fact Jesus did none of these things. The Third Temple has yet to be rebuilt. The majority of Jews were already living in Israel in the time of Jesus, so he could not make them “return” to the place they already lived. There is no era of world peace or freedom from strife. And finally, despite having 2000 years to spread the “gospel of Jesus” a majority of the world still does not believe in the G-d of Israel. History, therefore, is the greatest proof that Jesus is not the Messiah.

Contradictions Between Jesus' Law and the Torah


Christian missionaries love to claim that Jesus “came to uphold the Law” of the Torah, while at the same time arguing that the Torah is no longer applicable to modern times. But let's just see how well Jesus really did at upholding the Torah, as missionaries like to claim.

Jesus taught the concept of G-d as Three (Trinity). He claimed that there is a “father”, a “son” and a “holy spirit”. This concept is directly opposed to the words of the Torah. For instance, “Hear O Israel, the L-rd our G-d, the L-rd is ONE” (Deut. 6:4). This is one of the basic precepts of Jewish belief. The idea of three gods is considered idolatry, one of the three cardinal sins that every Jew must die before committing.

Christians believe that Jesus said that he was G-d when he said “I and the Father are One” (John 10:30). Maimonides, in his “Guide for the Perplexed” devoted a great deal of time to the issue of G-d in corporeal form. In essence, he states that the concept of “G-d” means that there is no corporeal form. Corporal forms have finite abilities, and G-d is infinite. Therefore, the concept of Jesus being G-d is ludicrous.

Judaism believes that the Messiah will be born of human parents and will be human himself, with physical attributes like all other people. This is clearly stated by Maimonides among others. Therefore, if Jesus is G-d, as the Christians believe, he cannot be the Messiah. And if he is the Messiah, he must be born of human parents, and cannot, therefore, be G-d.

Christianity believes that the prayers of the people must go through Jesus. “No man cometh unto the Father but me.” This is diametrically opposed to the Torah which states “G-d is near to all who call unto Him” (Ps. 145:18). Further, one of the Ten Commandments is “Thou shalt have no other gods BEFORE ME.” Therefore, the concept of Jesus as an intermediary for prayer is against the Torah.

The concept of a “New Testament” which overrides the laws of the Torah is in direct violation of the Torah. It states in Deuteronomy 13:1 “there may be no additions, nor subtractions from this law”. Furthermore, G-d states very clearly that he will never forsake his covenant with his people. The concept of a “New Testament”, which both adds new laws and eliminates the requirements of the old ones, goes against the Torah.

The “Proofs” of Jesus in the Torah

Many Christian missionaries try to use the words of the Torah as proofs that Jesus is G-d and/or the Messiah. Most of these “proofs” are deliberate mistranslation from the original Hebrew or cases of the words being taken out of context. Here are two common, often-used examples of the “proofs” used by the Christians.

- “Isaiah 53 discusses a suffering servant who will die and be rejected. Surely this passage proves that Jesus is the Messiah.”

Actually, no, it proves nothing of the sort. The “Suffering Servant” passages used by Christians does not refer to Jesus at all. It refers to the “House of Israel”, all Jews, who will suffer because of their own sins. Many people ask, “If these sentences refer to all Jews, why is it in the singular rather than plural?” The answer is simple. The Torah is filled with many cases of singular use, which actually refers to all of Israel. For instance, Isaiah in Chapter 49, refers to a “servant”, and states specifically that this single servant refers to all of Israel . Another example is “HEAR O Israel the L-rd, our G-d, the L-rd is one”. The word “hear” in the sentence is singular, yet it refers to all of Israel.

In fact, if read correctly, the Christian interpretation makes little sense. “He shall grow up as a plant” (Is. 53:2) refers to the future, while “He is despised and rejected” (Is. 53:3) refers to the present, and “Surely He has born or grief and carried our sorrows” (Is. 53:4) and “But He was wounded for our transgressions” (Is. 53:5) both refer to the past. If the entire passage referred to Jesus, wouldn't it all be in one tense? If it refers to Jesus in the present, how can it also refer to him in the past and in the future? Obviously, the passage refers to something else. However, if interpreted in the Jewish way, it makes perfect sense. Isaiah is saying that that the Jewish people will develop like a plant as a source of nourishment (in the future) despite being despised and rejected by all the nations (in the present) and despite having been persecuted and enslaved by the Egyptians, Philistines and others (in the past). Thus the Jewish interpretation has none of the difficulties of the Christian version.

- “Psalm 22 speaks of one who is rejected by his own people and taunted and mocked. This obviously refers to the events ascribed to Jesus in Mathew 26 and 27. It even refers to hands and feet being pierced, a sure reference to Jesus.”

Again, this Christian interpretation has many difficulties. The question is whether this passage can refer to anyone besides Jesus, or is this reference exclusively to Jesus alone. The answer is that Psalm 22 could refer to others as well. For instance, many commentators feel that this passage refers to all of Israel, just as the passage in Isaiah does.

For instance, many Jews felt they were forsaken during the Holocaust. They were not permitted to immigrate to any other country during the 1930's. They were starved in the concentration camps (“may tell my bones” (Ps. 22:17)) and had their clothing taken from them (“They part my garments among them”(Ibid.)). Or perhaps it means the Jews of earlier pogroms, who were surrounded by many “bulls” from the Cossacks to the Crusaders.

The key point that Christians make to prove that Psalm 22 is a reference to Jesus is references to limbs being pierced. The passage says (according to Christian translation) “For dogs have surrounded me, the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; they pierce my hands and feet.” (Ps. 22:16) However, the Hebrew word used in the sentence is “Ka'ari”. This word means “like a lion”. This sentence is meant to be translated as follows: “For dogs have surrounded me, the assembly of the wicked have enclosed me; like a lion who has my hands and feet.” As a matter of fact, the Hebrew language has no word for “pierce”, neither in ancient nor modern Hebrew. Thus the use of the word “pierce” as a translation of “Ka'ari” is a falsehood, and further proof of the fallacy of Jesus.

The Miracles of Jesus

One of the most important arguments used by the Christians to support their claims of Jesus as G-d are the “miracles” he performed, such as raising the dead, healing the sick and infirm, walking on water, etc. After all, if Jesus could do these things, doesn't it prove his divinity?

Again, the answer is NO. Even assuming that his miracles actually occurred and were indeed divinely inspired, the fact is that the Torah speaks specifically about how to handle such a situation. It states (Deut. 13:2-5) that if one claims to bring the word of G-d, and performs miracles to “prove” that he brings the word of G-d, and then changes the word of G-d, he is a false prophet and must be stoned, even if all his miracles come to fruition. Thus the fact that Jesus might have performed “miracles” does not make his word holy. He made people believe he was G-d and told them that there were a bunch of new laws called “the New Testament” which override the “Old Testament”. Thus by changing the word of G-d, he invalidated his own miracles.

No, He asked why some Jewish people don't think Jesus is the Messiah. Not what the diffrence between Judaism and Christianity is.

I don't know for sure. But I do know that Some Jews do think he was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fallen2grace

I dont know for sure. But i do know that Some Jews do think he was.

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Wait a minute! You don't know for sure, but blatantly stated, "No, He asked why some Jewish people don't think Jesus is the Messiah. Not what the difference between Judaism and Christianity is." Respectfully- you missed the point. The nature of my reply was based on the theological basic differences that inference "Jesus." The trinity involves the Christian believed upon messiah "Jesus." Again "Satan," Jesus' arch enemy, an embodied fallen angel according to Christianity. Jesus' messiahship, or lack thereof, is yet another of the major historical differences between Rabbinical Judaism and Christianity. Please next time read the entire post. I later gave an addendum with specific reasons.



Bobby

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fallen2grace

I dont know for sure. But i do know that Some Jews do think he was.

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There is a group called "Jews For Jesus" that claims to be "Jewish" and to have beliefe in Jesus as the Messiah. However, this is not a widely recognized Jewish sect.

In fact, Jews For Jesus is actually an Evangelical Baptist Christian sect.

Its leader Mort "Moshe" Rosen graduated from Northeastern Bible College in 1957, received his DD from Western Conservative Baptist Seminary in 1986, and was ordained by the Baptist Church in 1957. He has served on various Christian and specifically Baptist organizations throughout his career, before starting this supposedly "Jewish" organization.

Its Executive Director, David Brickner, is another Christian, having studied at Moody Bible Institute in Chicago and the Fuller School of World Mission in Pasadena, California. He has a degree in "missiology", meaning that he is a professional Baptist missionary and was ordained through the Baptist Conference. And he belongs to (and is an official missionary from) The Community Bible Church of Vallejo, California... not exactly your local synagogue.

This is true of the entire leadership of Jews for Jesus. They are CHRISTIAN leaders, not Jewish leaders. They have educations in Christian religion, not Judaism.

Furthermore, Jews for Jesus is a member of numerous evangelical Christian groups, including The World Evangelical Alliance, the National Association of Evangelicals, the Evangelical Council for Financial Accountability, the World Evangelical Fellowship, the Evangelical Fellowship of Canada, the Canadian Council for Christian Charities, the Evangelical Alliance of Great Britain, the Evangelical Alliance of South Africa, the Fédération Evangélique de France, (Evangelical Federation of France), the Lausanne Consultation on Jewish Evangelism. The majority (78%) of funding comes from "individual donations" which are from Christians. In fact, it is fair to say that almost NONE of the their funding comes from Jewish sources (except for people they have suckered into becoming members of their organization.

So, in short, Jews For Jesus is NOT a Jewish organization, does not represent mainstream Jewish thought, and is, in fact, a sham being perpetrated by the Baptist Church in an attempt to prosteletize Jews into Christianity.

Elliot

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Originally Posted by BABRAM

From Aish.com with link included at the end of the article.

A. Build the Third Temple (Ezekiel 37:26-28).
B. Gather all Jews back to the Land of Israel (Isaiah 43:5-6).
C. Usher in an era of world peace, and end all hatred, oppression, suffering and disease. As it says: "Nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall man learn war anymore." (Isaiah 2:4)--

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From my Christian understanding these are to happen at Jesus' 2nd coming

"From my Christian understanding these are to happen at Jesus' 2nd coming"

That may be the Christian understanding but from within the Jewish tradition there is no notion of a second coming. When the messiah comes he will be a human leader of his people and the messianic age then begins; these things are accomplished. The fact that they haven't come to pass is a major proof that the messiah of Jewish theology has yet to arrive.

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Originally Posted by N0help4u

From my Christian understanding these are to happen at Jesus' 2nd coming

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Nohelp,

Sorry, but in Jewish thought there is no second coming. There is no basis in OT scripture for the idea that the Messiah will rise from the dead. This isn't a baseball game: no three strikes. If Jesus had been the Messiah, he would have accomplished these goals the first time around. And please keep in mind that according to Christian beliefe, Jesus already had a second coming... he supposedly rose fom the dead after 3 days. So he has already had TWO opportunities to accomplish these prophesies.

Elliot

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So he has already had TWO opportunities to accomplish these prophesies.

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This is something I always had a problem with as well. If Jesus was an all powerful God, why does he need so many chances to do what he's supposed to do?

There have been described in the Old Testament 300 prophecies of the first coming of the Messiah and 500 of the second coming, all of then made hundreds of years before the birth of Jesus and fulfilled to the letter in Jesus Christ, the Messiah. Here are just a few...


13- Triumphal entry in Jerusalem on a donkey: Zechariah 9:9... John 12:13-14.
- Zec.9:9 Rejoice greatly, O Daughter of Zion! Shout, Daughter of Jerusalem! See, your king comes to you, righteous and having salvation, gentle and riding on a donkey, on a colt, the foal of a donkey. (Isa.62:11)
- Jn.12:13-14 They took palm branches and went out to meet him, shouting, "Hosanna!" "Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord!" "Blessed is the King of Israel!" Jesus found a young donkey and sat upon it, as it is written. (Mt.21:1-11; Jn.12:12, Mk.11:7-9.)

14- Entry through the "Golden Gate", that shall be shut for ever after his entrance: Ezekiel 44:1-2... Mark 11:7-8.
On Palm Sunday Jesus entered Jerusalem through the Golden Gate. When you go to Jerusalem look at the Golden Gate, it is shut with stone and cement, and with a Muslim cemetery in its front, through which a Jewish Messiah will never pass.
- Ez.44:1-2 Then the man brought me back to the outer gate of the sanctuary, the one facing east, and it was shut. To the LORD said to me, "This gate is to remain shut. It must not be opened; no one may enter through it. It is to remain shut because the LORD , the God of Israel, has entered through it.
- Mk.11:7-8 When they brought the colt to Jesus and threw their cloaks over it, he sat on it. Many people spread their cloaks on the road, while others spread branches they had cut in the fields.

15- Betrayed by a friend, for 30 pieces of silver: Zechariah 11:12, Psalm 41:9... Mark 14:10, Matthew 26:14-15.
- Ps.41:9 Even my close friend, whom I trusted, he who shared my bread, has lifted his heel against me.
- Mk.14:10 Then Judas Iscariot, one of the Twelve, went to the chief priests to betray Jesus to them. (Mt.26:14-16; Mk.14:43-45)
- Zec.11:12 I told them, "If you think it best, give me my pay; but if not, keep it." So they paid me thirty pieces of silver. (Zec.11:13)
- Mt.26:15 And asked, "What are you willing to give me if I hand him over to you?" So they counted out for him thirty silver coins. (Mt 27:3-10)

16- Money to be returned for a potter's field: Zechariah 11:13... Matthew 27:6-7.
- Zec.11:13 And the Lord said to me, "Throw it to the potter"- the handsome price at which they priced me! So I took the thirty pieces of silver and threw them into the house of the Lord to the potter.
- Mt.27:6-7 The chief priests picked up the coins and said, "It is against the law to put this into the treasury, since it is blood money." So they decided to use the money to buy the potter's field as a burial place for foreigners. (Mt.27:3-5,8-10)

17- Judas's position to be taken by another: Psalm 109:7-8... Acts 1:18-20.
- Ps.109:7-8 When he is tried, let him be found guilty, and may his prayers condemn him. May his days be few; may another take his place of leadership
- Act.1:18-20 (With the reward he got for his wickedness, Judas bought a field; there he fell headlong, his body burst open and all his intestines spilled out. Everyone in Jerusalem heard about this, so they called that field in their language Akeldama, that is, Field of Blood.) "For, " said Peter, "It is written in the book of Psalms, "'May his place be deserted; let there be no one to dwell in it,' and, "'May another take his place of leadership.'" (Ac 1:16-17)

18- Accused by false witnesses: Psalms .27:12, 35:11... Mt 26:60-61, Mk.14:57.
- Ps.27:12 Do not turn me over to the desire of my foes, for false witnesses rise up against me, breathing out violence. (Ps.35:11)
- Mt.26:60-61 But they did not find any, though many false witnesses came forward. Finally two men came forward and declared, "This fellow said, 'I am able to destroy the temple of God and rebuild it in three days.'"

19- Silent to accusations: Isaiah 53:7... Matthew 26:62-63, Mark.15:4-5.
- Isa.53:7 He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he did not open his mouth; he was led like a lamb to the slaughter, and as a sheep before her shearers is silent, so he did not open his mouth. (Ps.38:13-14)
- Mt 26:62-63 Then the high priest stood up and said to Jesus, "Are you not going to answer? What is this testimony that these men are bringing against you?" But Jesus remained silent. The high priest said to him, "I charge you under oath by the living God: Tell us if you are the Christ, the Son of God!" (Mt 27:12-14, Mk.15:4-5)

20 - Spat and struck: Isaiah 50:6, Matthew 26:67.
- Isa.50:6 I offered my back to those who beat me, my cheeks to those who pulled out my beard; I did not hide my face from mocking and spitting.
- Mk.14:65 Then some began to spit at him; they blindfolded him struck him with their fists, and said, "Prophesy!" And the guards took him and beat him. (Mt.26:27, Mk.15:17; Jn 19:1-3; 18:22)

21- Hated without reason: Psalms 69:4, 35:19, 109:3-5... John.15:24-25.
- Ps 69:4 Those who hate me without reason outnumber the hairs of my head; many are my enemies without cause, those who seek to destroy me. I am forced to restore what I did not steal. (Ps.35:19, 109:3-5)
- Jn.15:23-25 He who hates me hates my Father as well. If I had not done among them what no one else did, they would not be guilty of sin. But now they have seen these miracles, and yet they have hated both me and my Father. But this is to fulfill what is written in their Law: "They hated me without reason."

22- Soldiers divided his garments and gambled for his clothing: Psalm 22:18... Matt.27:35 (2 Prophecies)
- Ps 22:18 They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him, and parted his garments, casting lots: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, They parted my garments among them, and upon my vesture did they cast lots (Mk.15:24).

23- Crucified, "pierced through hands and feet": Zechariah 12:10, Psalm 22:16... Matthew 27:35, John 20:27.
- Ps.22:16 Dogs have surrounded me; a band of evil men has encircled me, they have pierced my hands and my feet. (Zec.12:10)
- Mt.27:35 And they crucified him.
- Jn. 20:25-26 Now Thomas (called Didymus)... he said to them, "Unless I see the nail marks in his hands and put my finger where the nails were, and put my hand into his side, I will not believe it." (Jn.19:37, 20:27)

24- Crucified with malefactors: Isaiah 53:12... Mark 15:27-28.
- Isa.53:12 Therefore I will give him a portion among the great, and he will divide the spoils with the strong, because he poured out his life unto death, and was numbered with the transgressors. For he bore the sin of many, and made intercession for the transgressors.
- Mt 27:38 Two robbers were crucified with him, one on his right and one on his left. (Mk 15:27-28; Lk 23:33)

25- Agonized in Thirst: Psalm 22:15... John 19:28.
- Ps.22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.
- Jn.19:28 After this, Jesus knowing that all things were now accomplished, that the scripture might be fulfilled, saith, I thirst.

26- Given gall and vinegar: Psalm 69:21... Matthew 27:34, 48, John 19:19.
- Ps.69:21 They put gall in my food and gave me vinegar for my thirst.
- Mat.27:34 They gave him vinegar to drink mingled with gall: and when he had tasted thereof, he would not drink (Jn.19:29, Mat.27:48).

27- No bones broken: Psalm 34:20... John 19:32-36.
- Ps 34:20 He protects all his bones, not one of them will be broken. (Ex 12:46)
- Jn 19:33 But when they came to Jesus and found that he was already dead, they did not break his legs.

28- His side pierced: Zechariah 12:10... John 19:34.
- Zec.12:10 They will look on me, the one they have pierced, and they will mourn for him as one mourns for an only child, and grieve bitterly for him as one grieves for a firstborn son.
- Jn 19:34 Instead, one of the soldiers pierced Jesus' side with a spear, bringing a sudden flow of blood and water.

29- Deserted by God: Psalm 22:1... Matthew 27:46.
- Ps.22:1 My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Why art thou so far from helping me, and from the words of my roaring?
- Mat.27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? That is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

30- Vicarious Sacrifice: Isaiah 53:4-5, 6, 12... Matthew 8:16-17, Romans 4:25, 5:6-8, 1 Corinthians 15:3.
- Isa.53:4-5 Surely he took up our infirmities and carried our sorrows, yet we considered him stricken by God, smitten by him, and afflicted. But he was pierced for transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. (Is. 53:6, 12)
- Mt.8:16-17 When evening came, many who were demon-possessed were brought to him, and he drove out the spirits with a word and healed all the sick. This was to fulfill what was spoken through the prophet Isaiah: "He took up our infirmities and carried our diseases." (Ro 4:25, 5:6-8, 1Cor 15:3)

[

B] 31- Buried with the rich:[/B] Isaiah 53:9, Matthew 27:57-60.
- Isa.53:9 He was assigned a grave with the wicked, and with the rich in his death, though he had done no violence, nor was any deceit in his mouth.
- Mt.27:57-60 As evening approached, there came a rich man from Arimathea, named Joseph, who had himself become a disciple of Jesus. Going to Pilate, he asked for Jesus' body, and Pilate ordered that it be given to him. Joseph took the body, wrapped it in a clean linen cloth, and placed it in his own new tomb that he had cut out of the rock. He rolled a big stone in front of the entrance to the tomb and went away

32- Deserted by his followers: Zechariah 13:7... Mark 14:27.
- Zec.13:7 smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered: and I will turn mine hand upon the little ones.
- Mk.14:27 And Jesus saith unto them, All ye shall be offended because of me this night: for it is written, I will smite the shepherd, and the sheep shall be scattered.

33- Time of his death: Daniel 9:25... Luke 2:1, Matthew 2:1:
- Doing the proper computations, the Messiah was supposed to die on April 3, of the year 33 AC (Open Bible pag.833)

****** 34- Resurrection of Jesus: Hosea 6:2, Psalms 16:10, 49:15... Luke 24:6-7, Mark.16:6-7.
- Hos.6:2 After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.
- Lk.24:6-7 He is not here, but is risen: remember how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee, Saying, The Son of man must be delivered into the hands of sinful men, and be crucified, and the third day rise again.