Originally Posted by
De Maria
finality? Not yet. I'll explain further below.
Two different perspectives. The perspectives are different. But not the ends. I'll explain further below.
Your terminology is interfering with the idea of justification.
Very good. Yes. That is the difference between the Law and the Sacraments.
The existence of a loving God.
Not necessarily. It is both/and.
No. But we can have different perspectives pointing in the same direction.
Ok, here's what I mean.
Justification is only in one direction. The perfection of the Soul moving in the direction of holiness and ultimate union with God.
Above you first said:
I think justification still boils down to intrinsic and extrinsic finality
Only that justification when one is perfected in the after life and enters heaven for all eternity is final. Justification here on earth is not final. That is why Abraham and the patriarchs who were perfected externally by their works could not enter heaven, could not be perfected without us:
Heb 11:
39And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: 40God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Their perfection was only extrinsic as it was done according to works.
The gift of Sanctifying Grace was not yet given by Jesus Christ sacrifice on the Cross. So, although the Patriarchs were perfect on the outside, that is on the outside of their soul. They had not yet been washed with the one Baptism of the Holy Spirit washing their souls clean of any defect. That could only happen when Jesus gave us His Gift of dying on the Cross for us that the Paraclete might come. This gift requires no work on our part as it is freely given to those who obey.
That justification which I am now referring to is the justification in the Sacraments. The chief example of which is Baptism. These are fountains of Grace wherein God washes our souls of every defect. Since it is God who does it, the washing is perfect. But it is not yet final. As I said before, only the Judgment of God in the afterlife will lead to a final justification. That being our entrance into union with God when we will see Him as He truly is.
Then you said:
being (as you demonstrate) looked at from two different perspectives.
As you can see, then, if I have made myself clear, is that both perspectives are oriented towards union with God. However, they don't see the path the same way. Its not as though one took the high road and one took the low road, it is more as though one is looking to the right and one is looking to the left but they are both moving forward.
When St. Paul says "faith", he assumes that works are present in that faith. When he says "works", he means works alone or that these individuals place faith in their works and not in God.
Let me show you. First he says that only doers are justified:
Romans 2:13
(For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.
That is very much in agreement with what St. James says.
But then he says:
Romans 3:26-28 (King James Version)
26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
That sounds almost as though he has done a 180 degree turn and has contradicted himself. But he hasn't. Lets continue to read:
19And being not weak in faith, he considered not his own body now dead, when he was about an hundred years old, neither yet the deadness of Sarah's womb:
20He staggered not at the promise of God through unbelief; but was strong in faith, giving glory to God;
21And being fully persuaded that, what he had promised, he was able also to perform.
22And therefore it was imputed to him for righteousness.
In other words, because he believed, Abraham worked. Because he believed God, he got busy and had sex with his wife, even though his own body was almost dead and his wife was sterile. Abraham exercised his faith.
And then Scripture says, THEREFORE, it was imputed to him for righteousness.
So, you see, St. Paul includes works in faith. Because, for him, if works do not exist, there is no faith at all.
St. James perspective is different in that he acknowledges the existence of faith without works, but considers that faith already dead rather than non existent. It is clear to me that St. James would agree 100/% that only doers of the law will be justified. But that is why St. James says that we are justified by works and not by faith only. If we break that statement down, we see that faith is assumed. He is not saying that one is justified by works alone. But that one is justified by faith expressed in works:
James 2:18
Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
So when St. James says justified by works, he assumes the existence of faith.
Therefore, RickJ is correct.
Does that make sense?
Sincerely,
De Maria
