Here in Northern Illinois there has been much controversy about wind turbines.It being 'green energy',unreliably(as the wind isn't ALWAYS there)no way to store extra power made from them(at least no proposals have surfaced for storage cells),problems professed by locals(encouraged by opposition) about a low frequency humming made from the power being transferred from the turbine tower to the power lines,The 'shadow' effect produced by the revolving of the blades,the need to offset the towers 1/2 mile,or 1 mile,or 1 1/2 mile,etc. from housing.

In my home there is heated debate about this.

I am all for the alternate power sources.

Hydro(of which the Dixon Ill plant is still there,but not in use:confused: )

The Byron Nuclear plant(which is housing more and more 'spent' fuel rods, eventually the plant will have to close or ship the waste overland, NIMBY's won't go for the overland)

Solar(better suited to the southwest and the similar unreliability due to sun exposure,etc.)

The wind is pretty constant here,not every day,mind you,but at the proposed heights of the towers(400 feet to hub) I would have to trust the studies that there is pretty much a consistent wind at that height.

The height is also an issue for those opposed to this 'wind farm' projects,the shadow effects are something they are complaining about,but with a 1 or 1 1/2 mile offset, yes,there might be times when the suns light will be effected with the spinning blades, but lets be real here,less pollution for a half hour of blade shadows?

The supposed 'hum' from the power being transferred to ground level,that has been addressed and as far as I have found,no locals living near the towers have any complaints.Low frequency sounds are produced by traffic,trains,etc.. some are more constant than others,yes,but inner city traffic is as prevalent as any turbine would ever be yet there isn't any complaining about cars.:rolleyes:

I think the opposition is just in it for the prestige,the opportunity to sound off about changes,the ulterior motives,like keeping oil,coal and nuclear as the power sources we live on for our electricity.

What say you?

Yes, I know about the wind turbines. Much has been written up here in Ontario as well, pros and cons. There is a chance they may be located out in Lake Ontario off the Scarborough Bluffs where the wind is constant, the wind turbines won't bother anyone with noise, vibrations, whatever. I think that is a good idea, but it is still in the planning stages and way in the future.

Yes it is green energy and that's what we need for tomorrows persistent energy requirements. We are fast running out of ideas for any alternate sources right now.

Good topic, KBC and I am glad to hear you are female. I always thought you were a male.

I don't have anything constructive to say other then my opinion above. Where I live in small town Ontario-on-the-lake it isn't an issue because the Northumberland Hills isn't really condusive to wind turbines and putting themout offshore Lake Ontario appeals to me. I am for every green idea they can think of that will work but then many of us on AMHD will not be alive to see any of these long term effects take place but I do worry about the young people and how they will handle all of this eventually.

IMOO

Tick

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Originally Posted by tickle

Good topic, KBC and I am glad to hear you are female. I always thought you were a male.


tick

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IDK where you got that I am female:confused: did I say something to that effect somewhere?

I am male, all man parts and everything.. :p

What I don't understand is this: Hydro works well for turbines and the latent energy of water is understood as a constant. How about wind? It seems to me if the air quality is perfect then the mill will turn without much assistance from an electric motor. Why can't we in the USA just buy power from Mexico? Do we already or does TXU come into play? Wind will help with complicating the day ahead market as its all so predictible! Lol. Honestly, how will somebody be able to predict an accurate load/ (savings?) Storage... that's not a huge problem, in my opinion. Use the wind as a supplement in the beginning. Then let India blackout not Mexico.

I thought the wind farms were always situated away from "civilization"? At least that's what I've noticed with the ones they have in eastern Canada and eastern New England. I like it, it's a good source of energy.

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Originally Posted by KBC

IDK where you got that I am female:confused: did I say something to that effect somewhere??

I am male,,all man parts and everything..:p

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gee, I am so sorry. It must have been another member :eek:

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Originally Posted by NeedKarma

I thought the wind farms were always situated away from "civilization"? At least that's what I've noticed with the ones they have in eastern Canada and eastern New England. I like it, it's a good source of energy.

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I had thought that too, but apparently some have been set up in fields adjacent to farms in norftheast Ontario and have been blamed for everything from two headed calves to four legged emus and poisoned wellwater, and still births; the normal run of events when something is called the 'spawn of the devils' by locals. So go figure. It is unnatural to see them on a landscape so there are going to be roadblocks, same as any other technology not understood.

They were to be positioned on Scarborough Bluffs but the location was chosen out in Lake Ontario where the wind is unchecked by trees or buildings. A much better choice for uninterrupted power anyway.

Tick

Wind is no panacea . As I have noted elsewhere they are heavily reliant on minerals that are classified as "rare earth" . I emphasis the word "rare " as in very scarce.
The magnets used to manufacture a 3 megawatt wind turbine contain two tons of rare earth minerals .

Everyone thinks we will achieve so called "energy independence" with it ,but we will still be dependent on cartel like nations for stuff like neodymium...

I have linked this article in Atlantic before when this topic came up . But it's worth reading if you haven't yet.
Clean Energy's Dirty Little Secret - Magazine - The Atlantic

Currently the Chinese have an almost monopolistic control on the rare earth minerals needed for both clean energy and many other consumer and military technologies.
They used that to undercut the market for domestic production... the only mine in the US was closed down as the Atlantic essay notes . And now they have made draconian reductions in production in response to threats that companies may move production of consumer products out of China.

USMMA: China's Rare Earth Export Restrictions Hurt Green Jobs in U.S.

So clean energy still requires environmentally harmful mining ,and it will not bring us to that goal of energy independence. In fact it will produce the opposite as we will become even more dependent on foreign supplies of the raw materials .

The issue you describe however 'not in my backyard ' NIMBY' is not confined to your area. I recall the Kennedy's making a lot of noise when a proposed wind farm was going to disturb their pristine view from their exclusive coastal community in Cape Cod . Even the big champion of environmentalism Robert Kennedy Jr found a way to oppose them (although he finds nothing wrong in wind farms off Long Island NY) .

I have seen NIMBY whenever any type of power generation is proposed . My local community prevented a clean gas plant from being constructed. On Long Island they stopped a nuclear plant. Windfarms in the Catskills (no big population there ) ,mining , drilling ,refineries all meet opposition .
But experience so much as a brownout interupting television or computer service and people throw a fit. And you never hear the end of it when gas prices rise.

I think until that dilithium crystal powerplant of flux capacitor engine is perfected ,then it's all hands on deck. We should supply our growing energy needs with multiple sources including petro-carbon ,nuclear ,hydro-and geo-thermal sources as well as solar and wind where practical .

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Originally Posted by tickle

gee, I am so sorry. It must have been another member :eek:

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Indeed:)

No harm,no foul.;)

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Originally Posted by tomder55

Wind is no panacea . As I have noted elsewhere they are heavily reliant on minerals that are classified as "rare earth" . I emphasis the word "rare " as in very scarce.
The magnets used to manufacture a 3 megawatt wind turbine contain two tons of rare earth minerals .

Everyone thinks we will achieve so called "energy independence" with it ,but we will still be dependent on cartel like nations for stuff like neodymium....

I have linked this article in Atlantic before when this topic came up . But it's worth reading if you haven't yet.
Clean Energy's Dirty Little Secret - Magazine - The Atlantic

Currently the Chinese have an almost monopolistic control on the rare earth minerals needed for both clean energy and many other consumer and military technologies.
They used that to undercut the market for domestic production ....the only mine in the US was closed down as the Atlantic essay notes . And now they have made draconian reductions in production in response to threats that companies may move production of consumer products out of China.

USMMA: China's Rare Earth Export Restrictions Hurt Green Jobs in U.S.

So clean energy still requires environmentally harmful mining ,and it will not bring us to that goal of energy independence. In fact it will produce the opposite as we will become even more dependent on foreign supplies of the raw materials .

The issue you describe however 'not in my backyard ' NIMBY' is not confined to your area. I recall the Kennedy's making alot of noise when a proposed wind farm was going to disturb their pristine view from their exclusive coastal community in Cape Cod . Even the big champion of environmentalism Robert Kennedy Jr found a way to oppose them (although he finds nothing wrong in wind farms off Long Island NY) .

I have seen NIMBY whenever any type of power generation is proposed . My local community prevented a clean gas plant from being constructed. On Long Island they stopped a nuclear plant. Windfarms in the Catskills (no big population there ) ,mining , drilling ,refineries all meet opposition .
But experience so much as a brownout interupting television or computer service and people throw a fit. And you never hear the end of it when gas prices rise.

I think until that dilithium crystal powerplant of flux capacitor engine is perfected ,then it's all hands on deck. We should supply our growing energy needs with multiple sources including petro-carbon ,nuclear ,hydro-and geo-thermal sources as well as solar and wind where practical .

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Wow,I really got into that story from the Atlantic,thanks!

The wind farms already in place here in the northern Illinois area have the ire raised by only so many 'environmentalists' and bleeding heart conservatives.(yeah,my best work there:p)

Those opposed seem to believe that the subsidized department of energy funds made available to the companies is one of the few reasons they want to make these wind farms in the first place.They are of the mind that wind generated power is a losing proposition now and in the long term siting 10+ year old information/reports on how the technology isn't economically viable for a renewable energy source,the height of the towers has been proposed to a height of 440 feet(which that number gets greater and greater depending on who it is that responds to casual conversation)

I am not out in the open about my opposition of the opposition,, yet:p

This has been innuendo created by the local tea party, I can only imagine what else they are going to start and how far the stories are going to go until things blow-up in their faces.

The more facts I gather,the more I can bring to their next 'open to the public' meetings about this projected wind farm and other ideas they are opposed to or supporting.

I really don't get the ho ha over wind farms there is one about 20-30 miles from where I live and I haven't heard any complaints, now it might be different if I could see it but the fact that manufacture is dependent upon the chinese, I find that disconcerting from a strategic standpoint. If any of us are going to use technology we should make sure the means isn't in the hands of a foreign power. Hydro has been around for a hundred years and if you have the water source why no use it. It doesn't mean big dams, run of the river can be done without huge projects and solar can be done at domestic level in the right places. We have listened to the economies of scale argument for a long time and all it has got us is big business but locally distributed power production makes sense

What's the big deal anyway?

Altamont Pass Wind Farm - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are other sources out there much more reliable then wind power but we aren't allowed access to them. One of the problems with hydroelectric power is that you have to maintain the tubes very often as we have been invaded with foreign bodies from other countries like the fresh water barnacle that constantly cloggs the tubes. It reduces flow and can caus total failuer of a turbine if left unchecked. There are plenty of alternatives its just a matter of getting them into production.

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Those opposed seem to believe that the subsidized department of energy funds made available to the companies is one of the few reasons they want to make these wind farms in the first place.They are of the mind that wind generated power is a losing proposition now and in the long term siting 10+ year old information/reports on how the technology isn't economically viable for a renewable energy source,the height of the towers has been proposed to a height of 440 feet(which that number gets greater and greater depending on who it is that responds to casual conversation)

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I don't know about the future viability ,but if it was competitive in the market place there would be no need for subsidization. We are learning that lesson painfully with ethanol.

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now it might be different if I could see it but the fact that manufacture is dependent upon the chinese, I find that disconcerting from a strategic standpoint. If any of us are going to use technology we should make sure the means isn't in the hands of a foreign power.

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Indeed . Americans however will pay lip service to energy independence while at the same time oppose any means that can get them there.

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Originally Posted by tomder55

I don't know about the future viability ,but if it was competitive in the market place there would be no need for subsidization. We are learning that lesson painfully with ethanol. .

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Competitive is a relative term and a matter of perspective. Ethanol wasn't viable until the price of oil rose and while we have coal, nothing else is competitive, so the only way to develop alternative energies is subsidisation until they can become large enough to get the cost of production down. There are lots of ways to produce energy and we really should be exploring wave and tidal much more than we are

.

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Indeed . Americans however will pay lip service to energy independence while at the same time oppose any means that can get them there.

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I suppose you know your own people best, but is that americans or environmentalists

My biggest beef with ethanol is that(at least the American corn based version) it takes more energy to produce than it generates. Ethanol is one of the biggest scams in the US .It is a handout to agribusiness ,and in the case of ethanol ,it would make a lot more sense to import Brazil sugar cane ethanol.
The American consumer pays for it in the subsidies,in higher fuel costs ,in a distorted corn market .
Further this distorted price has had a devastating affect on small family farmers in Mexico where corn is a staple crop .

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Originally Posted by tomder55

My biggest beef with ethanol is that(at least the American corn based version) it takes more energy to produce than it generates. Ethanol is one of the biggest scams in the US .It is a handout to agribusiness ,and in the case of ethanol ,it would make a lot more sense to import Brazil sugar cane ethanol.
The American consumer pays for it in the subsidies,in higher fuel costs ,in a distorted corn market .
Further this distorted price has had a devastating affect on small family farmers in Mexico where corn is a staple crop .

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You left out that its also less efficient then gasoline so the more you mix it with reguler gas the lower your gas milage goes and the more needed per miles of travel. That's the part they never talk about.

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Originally Posted by califdadof3

One of the problems with hydroelectric power is that you have to maintain the tubes very often as we have been invaded with foriegn bodies from other countries like the fresh water barnacle that constantly cloggs the tubes. It reduces flow and can caus total failuer of a turbine if left unchecked. There are plenty of alternatives its just a matter of getting them into production.

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Here in the middle of the US,the 'foreign bodies' probably isn't much of an issue,the water comes from no further than Wisconsin or Michigan making it to the already stepped down 'dams'(they look like a curb on the side of the road)
Water just flows over them.To operate the hydro plant,they just raise the mechanical dam feature,same as if there is a flood passing through, raise or lower to make sure downstream doesn't flood, and there are more than a few of these in place.

Must be something other than we are privy to.

The wind farms located in the Mendota area are running just fine,they can be seen from the highway.The newest ones just finished in Dekalb are still being monitored for any anomalies.

My thinking is still that,just like the skin change proposed on here,these people are fearful of getting out from under the coal/nuclear/(and super inefficient) ethanol generated power,we even have a new natural gas generating electric plant.(the local politics made it so the newest power plant was suspended due to the high costs(from the union cost over runs) and then the 'non union' work being done onsite.Now it's wind power.. new doesn't mean losing,except to this group,they are making this very personal.

Unions will always get in the way of progress particularly wind because it doesn't need many of their members, if they would realise there is more opportunity in building the generators they would get on board

Our "Wind farm" is caught up in regulations. Namely the EPA and pollution. Yes, pollution. The boat, which is unknown, must sink a pole in the ocean and to an environmental study. The boat will only be needed a short time. Maybe a week+. But it pollutes.

Go figure.

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Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

Go figure.

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Can't figure out what you just said