Ask Me Help Desk - How are property line disputes settled with a "more or less" clause?

My parents have a property line dispute with their neighbor. The property is in Pennsylvania and goes back to colonial times and was originally measured in rods with property markers that no longer exist. This is true for the entire city block that my parents live on. No property outside the city block references any property within it. All properties are so many feet "more or less". The total number of feet for each property as recorded in the deeds is much greater than the width of any property. My parents were told when they bought the property that the old fence (which does not make a straight line) has been there for over 50 years and is the correct border. My parents have lived there another 45 years and the neighbor has been slowly removing chunks of the 95+ year-fence and putting in new fence to benefit the size of their property. They have been cutting out trees and bushes as they go. The police say it is a civil matter and judges no longer accept fence placement as proof of ownership. We have explained that no survey can settle this since there are not enough feet in the block for all the feet claimed in the individual deeds and none of the properties have as much as the deeds claim. Suing does not seem an option since whoever brings suit has the burden of proof and the neighbor has a business and says he can write off the expense and "sue us into the ground". The "block plan" is either missing or never existed because the property is so old. The city commissioned a survey of the area which shows my parents with several hundred square feet of more property then they now have, but we are told that the survey from 1890 no longer has legal standing. What legal precedent or principle can my parents use to get the police to intervene or otherwise stop the removal of more of their property? There must be similar cases of exaggerated claims of property footage and lost property markers.

Have you tried calling a surveyor and asking them what resolution you might have for finding the property lines?

So if you don't want to sue, just let them have their way, there is no other option.

1. who said existing fence has no value, that is the standing for almost all many suits * even to take ownership of property that is not yours**

2. you get it surveyed and if found to be on your property you sue. And unless of course this property your neighbor has is owned by the business it is not a write off, and he is just trying to scare you into doing nothing

So at the end of the day, you either fight and sue, or just let them win and forget it

Thank you for your question. Surveyors tell me that the whole area has such a level of ambiguity in it that it is impossible to come to a definitive conclusion. The properties were defined by landmarks and the original surveys were inexact. The who

Thank you for your detailed questions and comments. Unfortunately, the neighbor property is now a business. The police say they can't intervene and stop them from removing fence that they claim belongs to them or is on their property, unless we have a s

Thank you for your question. Surveyors tell me that the whole area has such a level of ambiguity in it that it is impossible to come to a definitive conclusion. The properties were defined by landmarks and the original surveys were inexact. The whole area was originally surveyed from “the large rock in the middle of the stream” and the “big oak tree” neither of which now exist. No property outside of the area references any property within the area. All the footages of the properties were rounded up (sometimes by several feet or “a rod”) hence the ubiquitous “more or less clauses”. The resulting mess caused the need for the city-commissioned survey of where fences actually are from 1890 but that is considered not to be exact enough either. The fences are not straight because originally they seemed to have followed a rope tied between trees along the border. But even the 1890 survey only recorded the non-rectangular corners of the properties. Even with those corner points, the 1890 survey is no longer considered to be valid since it is so old.

Hello c:

If there's NO legal remedy available when he TAKES your parents property, then there would be NO legal remedy available for him if your parents TAKE it back, and some of his to boot.

I'd hire a front loader to remove HIS fence and replace it with your parents BIGGER and STRONGER fence.

excon

Here is what I would do in this situation. I would try to find the surveys where available and any notes that went with it. Something that isn't well known but true is many surveys used the skys for making estimates as well as landmarks. They also would record measurements with a sextant. The same as ships would use for plotting a journey. If you can find those notes then your well on your way to defining where the property lines should be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by califdadof3

... Something that isnt well known but true is many surveys used the skys for making estimates as well as landmarks. They also would record measurements with a sextant. The same as ships would use for plotting a journey. ...

I don't think so. Perhaps for finding the starting point of a survey (even there one would be next to useless), but even in the 18th Century it would be way to inaccurate for determining distances within a survey.

Quote:

Originally Posted by circike

... My parents were told when they bought the property that the old fence (which does not make a straight line) has been there for over 50 years and is the correct border. My parents have lived there another 45 years and the neighbor has been slowly removing chunks of the 95+ year-fence and putting in new fence to benefit the size of their property. ...

The fence appears to be your best evidence of where the property line should be.

You need to document all of this. Take good pictures of the fence. Get a surveyor to establish where the fence is.

Quote:

Originally Posted by circike

The police say it is a civil matter and judges no longer accept fence placement as proof of ownership. ...

Never take legal advice from a cop. In this case, as I say, the fence placement is the best thing you have going for you. The police you talked to are probably thinking that, because a judge decided, in another case, not to accept fence placement, judges never do. Each case is decided n its own merits.

Quote:

Originally Posted by circike

Suing does not seem an option since whoever brings suit has the burden of proof and the neighbor has a business and says he can write off the expense and "sue us into the ground". ...

He is bluffing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by circike

What legal precedent or principle can my parents use to get the police to intervene or otherwise stop the removal of more of their property? ...

"Adverse Possession". Your parents possessed the land up to the fence for the requisite period (I don't know what the period is in Pennsylvania, but it's usually 7 years, or something like that.), and in most states this principle would be what you would go on.

Dear AK, Thank you for your thoughtful answer. We have argued adverse possession with the police and they said they would not intervene and stop them from removing fence that they claim belongs to them or is on their property, unless we have a survey done in the last 3 years that shows it belongs to us. The lawyer we spoke to told us that adverse possession is not accepted until after all possibility of resolving the matter through surveys is exhausted. He said in an analogous case the court ordered 3 more surveys after the 2 that had already been done by the homeowner. He further said that the cost of those surveys, due to their complexity, were several times that of a normal survey. He said that the legal and court costs on top of that were prohibitive. Furthermore, since we would sue, the burden of proof would be on us. Finally, considering the level of overt hostility of our neighbors and their past actions, he (and we) questioned if it was advisable to antagonize them further unless we could find a clear precedent. Do you know of any precedent that might help us?
Please explain why you think they are bluffing and how difficult our case would be. Can we insist that the police press charges when our fence is being cut apart and removed? We have been told that if we press charges and a court decides that it was our neighbor's land, then they can sue us. Our neighbor tells us that with the position of the removed fence it would be our word against theirs and they have a lot more relatives who will swear we are in the wrong. We have since extensively photographed the fence but if it and all trees and bushes were removed we would only have the cracks in the sidewalk to show where it had been. I would appreciate any more ideas you have. Many thanks for your kind concern.

The police are not the ones you talk with, they are not part of this, it is the courts, police officers are not trained in civil law and can not get involved

Next you file an injuction to stop him from building any new fence, if the first attorney was to stupid to know this, you find a second attorney.

And the minute he tore down the fence, all other remedies were gone

Once you prove iit was your property in civil court, then you can sue them for the damages to the fence.

Please stop calling the police on this.