Hello-

I attempted to change a switch to a switch/receptacle combo? Last night the installation seemed a success initially. There were no problems and the receptacle had power. Since the light fixture was not installed yet, I test the wires hanging from the wall and they had power. However, when I turned the light switch to the OFF position, the wires for the fixture still had power. Since I thought I had constant power to the light fixture, I tinkered and hooked up the combo wrong. This shorted the circuit. I disconnected the combo and tried to turn the circuit ON but saw sparks. The breaker returns to the neutral, or reset, position and allows me to turn it OFF but not ON. When I tried to twice turn it ON, I saw sparks since the panel door was off. I did notice the silver connector to the combo seemed charred/burned. I think I just want a switch moving forward, but more importantly, I just want my circuit up and running. Please help.

There are 2 types of switch/plug outlets. One has the switch turn on outlet. The other as a hot plug(always on) and switch control for light.

Put 2 pigtails on black wire coming from panel (hot wires). Hook a pigtail to the brass screw on outlet and brass screw on switch.

Hook 2 pigtails to white wire from panel. Hook one pigtail to silver screw on outlet, the other to white wire from light. Use wire nuts to secure.

Hook black wire from light to silver screw on switch.

Chuck

Thank you for replying. Are you indicating that all I have to do to get the circuit up and running again is to correctly install the combo receptacle/switch unit? I am very much the novice at this. Though I have put in plenty of light fixtures, new receptacle boxes, my experience is only that. My concern is because of those sparks I saw when trying to turn the breaker back on. After I removed the combo unit from the box, I saw sparks again at the electrical panel. I will take your advise about installing the combo unit for sure if this will prevent sparks and get the entire circuit up and running again. What do you say? Thanks again.

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Originally Posted by creahands

There are 2 types of switch/plug outlets. One has the switch turn on outlet. The other as a hot plug(always on) and switch control for light.

Put 2 pigtails on black wire coming from panel (hot wires). hook a pigtail to the brass screw on outlet and brass screw on switch.

Hook 2 pigtails to white wire from panel. Hook one pigtail to silver screw on outlet, the other to write wire from light. Use wire nuts to secure.

Hook black wire from light to silver screw on switch.

Chuck

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Originally Posted by StanLebuis

Thank you for replying. Are you indicating that all I have to do to get the circuit up and running again is to correctly install the combo receptacle/switch unit? I am very much the novice at this. Though I have put in plenty of light fixtures, new receptacle boxes, my experience is only that. My concern is because of those sparks I saw when trying to turn the breaker back on. After I removed the combo unit from the box, I saw sparks again at the electrical panel. I will take your advise about installing the combo unit for sure if this will prevent sparks and get the entire circuit up and running again. What do you say? Thanks again.

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Here is my configuration. Down in basement there is a junction box. Power comes in and disperses power three ways:

1) to desired light fixture
2) to desired switch for light fixture
3) to another junction box down in basement.

Hoping to create a switch for the fixture, I pigtailed two blacks at the junction box:

1) to merge incoming power with both the switch and fixture
2) to merge incoming power with other junction box in basement

I also pigtailed two whites the same way as I did for the blacks, that is:

1) to merge incoming power with both the switch and fixture
2) to merge incoming power with other junction box in basement

When I connected the combo box, I must have got lucky as power went to both combo and fixture. However, it seems to me that the power in the fixture would always be on, which is why I tried another configuraion.

I am not enamored with the combo unit, just had one sitting around and decided to put it in for convenience. It has been far from that. I just don’t want to burn the house down.

Is it possible for me to simply put in a regular switch to get the circuit running again, or could this short be attributed to something other than me screwing up the install of the combo unit? It seems to me that a short due to anything other than my ignorance would be a massive coincidence.

I’d be happy with just a switch. Based on my configuration above, do I have the junction box set up correctly? If yes, do I then hook the incoming black at the switch box to the bottom brass terminal of the switch and the incoming white at the switch to the top of the switch?

Where did you see sparks at the circuit panel. Sparks indicate loose connection.

A combination switch and outlet can be wired several ways depending on use. The terminal screw are connected by break away tabs. You separate terminals depending on use. See drawings.

I don't follow you last post very well. You don't merge power. You take power, hot and neutral from panel, to fixture or junction box, to fixture. It appears you want to go from circuit panel to junction box or outlet, from there you want to go in one direction to another outlet. From the junction box or first outlet you want to go up to a light. When wiring light you can take power to the switch, called feeding the switch, from the switch power goes to the light. Or you can take power to the light and run a switch leg from the light to the switch. Power from the light goes on one wire to the switch and comes back on another . Both of these wires are in the same cable.

Tell me what you want to do.

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Originally Posted by hkstroud

Where did you see sparks at the circuit panel. Sparks indicate loose connection.

A combination switch and outlet can be wired several ways depending on use. The terminal screw are connected by break away tabs. You separate terminals depending on use. See drawings.

I don't follow you last post very well. You don't merge power. You take power, hot and neutral from panel, to fixture or junction box, to fixture. It appears you want to go from circuit panel to junction box or outlet, from there you want to go in one direction to another outlet. From the junction box or first outlet you want to go up to a light. When wiring light you can take power to the switch, called feeding the switch, from the switch power goes to the light. Or you can take power to the light and run a switch leg from the light to the switch. Power from the light goes on one wire to the switch and comes back on another . Both of these wires are in the same cable.

Tell me what you want to do.

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I really appreciate your time. I somewhat understand what you are saying. The house is very old. There is 1 room that has a switch, an outlet and a fixture. That is it. The outlet and switch have just B & W incoming wires. The fixture has only two wires too, but I have never seen this type before. Down in the basement it looked as if they were attached to these strange battery looking devices. They were old and frayed.

I tested the fixture wires for power and they came up negative. I decided to run new wire to the same junction box. This is the junction box I had referred to earlier.

Here is my main goal: to get my circuit up and running again. My initial goal was to take power from a junction box to both a switch and fixture. The only direct 'line' (sorry for the terminology) connecting the switch to the fixture was through this junction box.

There are 4 wires in this junction box:
1) Power from the panel
2) Power to fixture (and ending there)
3) Power to switch (and ending there)
4) Power to alternate junction box.

When I tried this last night, I did get power to the switch and the fixture. No problems, no short. But the fixture had constant power I think. Today I tried differently, and screwed up the installation and now have a short.

My main concern is these sparks I see at the electrical panel in the basement. I have the door removed and see bright flashes when I tried to turn the circuit ON two times today.

Is it possible that a loose connection could have occurred somewhere else on this circuit because of some power surge related to my actions? Or is there a way I can resolve this by correctly installing a switch and if I have to bypass the fixture and use it as an outlet because of the constant power, I will do it in a hearbeat.

I know this is confusing, but obviously I am green. I always try to be extremely cautious and not get over my head, but I seem to have failed at this approach.

Any extra advise/help. Money is tight so I want to resolve this on my own, if possible. It seems to me this short is a result of today's action and I'm hoping there is a way out of it.

Thank you.

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Originally Posted by StanLebuis

I really appreciate your time. I somewhat understand what you are saying. The house is very old. There is 1 room that has a switch, an outlet and a fixture. That is it. The outlet and switch have just B & W incoming wires. The fixture has only two wires too, but I have never seen this type before. Down in the basement it looked as if they were attached to these strange battery looking devices. They were old and frayed.

I tested the fixture wires for power and they came up negative. I decided to run new wire to the same exact junction box. This is the junction box I had referred to earlier.

Here is my main goal: to get my circuit up and running again. My initial goal was to take power from a junction box to both a switch and fixture. The only direct 'line' (sorry for the terminology) connecting the switch to the fixture was thru this junction box.

There are 4 wires in this junction box:
1) Power from the panel
2) Power to fixture (and ending there)
3) Power to switch (and ending there)
4) Power to alternate junction box.

When I tried this last night, I did get power to the switch and the fixture. No problems, no short. But the fixture had constant power I think. Today I tried differently, and screwed up the installation and now have a short.

My main concern is these sparks I see at the electrical panel in the basement. I have the door removed and see bright flashes when I tried to turn the circuit ON two times today.

Is it possible that a loose connection could have occurred somewhere else on this circuit because of some power surge related to my actions? Or is there a way I can resolve this by correctly installing a switch and if I have to bypass the fixture and use it as an outlet because of the constant power, I will do it in a hearbeat.

I know this is confusing, but obviously I am green. I always try to be extremely cautious and not get over my head, but I seem to have failed at this approach.

Any extra advise/help. Money is tight so I want to resolve this on my own, if possible. It seems to me this short is a result of today's action and I'm hoping there is a way out of it.

Thank you.

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One other note. I have read what has been written and though long and hard about how naïve I was. Its clear that instead of using a pigtail at the switch box, which is what I have done enough times in the past, and tried this in a junction box ( read first post). I now think about how dumb this rationale was. Now I am not surprised that I had power at the combo box and fixture. It makes sense. I just didn't have use of the switch. Now I find myself in a position, other than hiring an electrician (which I am tryiing to avoid at all costs during this stressful financial time) of solving this mess. It sounds as if this short that was caused by me wiring the combo box wrong may have 'triggered' wires to be loose on some other receptacle/switch/junction box. I hope this is not true, because there are many receptacles and junction boxes on this circuit with old, and I mean old wires. I will not be able to do this on my own if this is the case, and I can't imagine how much this will cost to have an electrician monitor everything on this circuit. Just thinking out loud. Please help if you can. Thanks. Stan.

Try this and see if it doesn't work. Sorry for the bad diagram best I could do. http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/...ghtdiagram.jpg

The "flashes" are probably OK with a direct short. This flash probably is seen in the breaker.

First, I think you might have an issue with "switches" general, so I will attempt some education. Switches are generally wired as "switch loops". To make things make sense, you have to tape the end of the white wires attached to the switch black. Now it's just a black wire. The powered side will be the white with black. The fixture side will be the black wire.

So, if you take the switches out of the equation, the whites will connect to whites and the blacks to blacks. If you do this, your light should stay on, but you will have no switch.

To connect the light, you insert the switch into the black wire to the light. White with taped black (switch) goes to power all the time and black heads to black in the fixture.

Make sense?

Have to go do some chores right nowso don't have any time. Be back this evening. Hang in there. Wouldn't mind seeing a pic of the "battery looking thing".

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Originally Posted by jbarnes1985

Try this and see if it doesn't work. Sorry for the bad diagram best I could do. http://i1002.photobucket.com/albums/...ghtdiagram.jpg

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Yes, I can understand the diagram. Thanks. It seems that you have shown me how to connect a switch/receptacle combo to send power to a fixture.

My issue is that I cannot send power from the switch to the light based on the logistics of the house. I'm sure a seasoned electrician could. As it is currently constructed, wires leave from the junction box up to the switch and light separately.

I was hoping to use the current set-up because the holes that were drilled from the basement to carry the wires from the junction box to both the switch and fixture can barely carry one wire. I won't be able to pull another wire up to the fixture or down from the switch. I don't even own a drill, and if I did, I'm not sure I could do the job.

My main concern is getting the rest of the circuit up and running while avoiding any more sparks at the breaker. Thanks for the info.

By your post, u have 4 cables(8 wires not counting ground wire) in box with switch. That would be 4 black, 4 white and the ground wires. Find the pair that has power. There should only be one pair with power.

Use tester to fined power. The wires must not be connected to each other or any receptacle in that box when testing. Label cables as u test them.

After testing, follow Harold's pic on layout/wiring.

Good luck

Chuck

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Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

The "flashes" are probably OK with a direct short. This flash probably is seen in the breaker.

First, I think you might have an issue with "switches" general, so I will attempt some education. Switches are generally wired as "switch loops". To make things make sense, you have to tape the end of the white wires attached to the switch black. Now it's just a black wire. The powered side will be the white with black. The fixture side will be the black wire.

So, if you take the switches out of the equation, the whites will connect to whites and the blacks to blacks. If you do this, your light should stay on, but you will have no switch.

To connect the light, you insert the switch into the black wire to the light. White with taped black (switch) goes to power all the time and black heads to black in the fixture.

Make sense?

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Yes, this does make sense. I knew that sometimes black tape needed to be put on a white wire to indicate power, I just was never sure when or frankly, why.

Are you suggesting that if I correctly wire the switch to the fixture, and then turn the circuit ON, I might see no sparks, everything will be fine, and the house might still be standing? Or do you think this direct short is a result of 'loose' wires somewhere else on the circuit? Thanks to you and everyone else who is taking their time to help see me through this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by creahands

By your post, u have 4 cables(8 wires not counting ground wire) in box with switch. That would be 4 black, 4 white and the ground wires. Find the pair that has power. There should only be one pair with power.

Use tester to fined power. The wires must not be connected to each other or any receptacle in that box when testing. Label cables as u test them.

After testing, follow Harold's pic on layout/wiring.

Good luck

Chuck

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You are correct with respect to the 4 black, 4 white and ground wires in the junction box. My problem is that I do not have power and only one of those small testers that I use to stick in receptacle or touch wires to see if there are power. So I don't know how else to check for power. I do not have one of those hand held testers that electricians use, and even if I did, I would not know how to use it, at least not now. I would like to learn how to use this moving forward though.

I am pretty sure what cable brings the power into the box because 2 of the other wire connect directly to my fixture and switch and the other wire goes to a junction box which sends 2 wires up to another room of mine, which I believe is the end of this circuit. I will look at this particular wire more closely to confirm this, however.

I will also try to get you the pic you requested. It is dark down the basement because some lights down there are connected to this circuit as well.

Thanks.

If u have all wires sticking out of box and not touching anything, does circuit breaker blow(shut off)?

If it does not, one of the pair of wires will be hot. U can test this with the outlet tester.But be very careful. Touch end of probes to a set of wires. If tester lights, u have the hot pair. Test all sets of wire this way to make sure u only have 0ne set of hot(live) wires. This is not the best way to do it, but it will work.

After u find hot, shut off breaker and mark it.

Chuck

Quote:

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Originally Posted by creahands

If u have all wires sticking out of box and not touching anything, does circuit breaker blow(shut off)?

If it does not, one of the pair of wires will be hot. U can test this with the outlet tester.But be very careful. Touch end of probes to a set of wires. If tester lights, u have the hot pair. Test all sets of wire this way to make sure u only have 0ne set of hot(live) wires. This is not the best way to do it, but it will work.

After u find hot, shut off breaker and mark it.

Chuck

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Yes, the wires for both the switch and fixture are hanging out of the box free from one another and the breaker blows (with a spark). I haven't tried to reset the breaker since the 2x I tried yesterday. I have used my testers on these wires as well as testing known receptacles on this circuit and have zero power. This is why I am concerned. I was hoping the breaker was 'waiting' for me to install a new switch or receptacle at the location where I messed up yesterday (switch/receptacle combo). But since the wires are free and clear of any metal and not rubbing with one another, I fear that some other random receptacle/switch on this circuit became loose once the breaker broke. I hope I am wrong. Do you think if I were able to set up the switch and fixture correctly, the breaker would recognize this and there would be no other short that shuts down this circuit?

Nice check Chuck.

This does suggest upstream. Best suggestion at this point is to cap all of the wires in the exposed junction box temporarily.

Find the outlets/locations where things don't work.

See if you can "guess" the wiring path.

What happens a lot of times is the receptacle screws short against the metal box.

Once you have a guessed path. Start bisecting. Remove the middle component. You really only need to remove the black wires. Did the breaker blow? Yes, then it's before that point. Bisect that. Determine which segment. This method reduces the test time.

Just taking off the cover plates and inspecting might also be enough.

Next question. Does your tester measure resistance?

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Originally Posted by KeepItSimpleStupid

Nice check Chuck.

This does suggest upstream. Best suggestion at this point is to cap all of the wires in the exposed junction box temporarily.

Find the outlets/locations where things don't work.

See if you can "guess" the wiring path.

What happens a lot of times is the receptacle screws short against the metal box.

Once you have a guessed path. Start bisecting. Remove the middle component. You really only need to remove the black wires. Did the breaker blow? Yes, then it's before that point. Bisect that. Determine which segment. This method reduces the test time.

Just taking off the cover plates and inspecting might also be enough.

Next question. Does your tester measure resistance?

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Ok, trying over here. Thanks for all of your support. By upstream, I am assuming you mean from the panel. All wires from both the fixture and switch are out and about. And I do understand what you mean when you talk about testing a segment and dismissing those that come after it to reduce test time. What exactly am I doing at each box though? I don't have a tester that measures resistance, only a Home Depot store bought one that novices like myself use to check if there is power and if it is 120 or 240. So without a test meter to measure resistance, is my job, after bisecting to reduce time, to now remove all plate covers to those stops and look for what? I know you said to only concentrate on the black wires, but what exactly am I looking for? Am I to eventually find a black wire that is burnt, off the terminal, perhaps had fallen out of its wire cap? Thanks for keeping me in mind. While inconvenient given the circu

Quote:

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Originally Posted by StanLebuis

Ok, trying over here. Thanks for all of your support. By upstream, I am assuming you mean from the panel. All wires from both the fixture and switch are out and about. And I do understand what you mean when you talk about testing a segment and dismissing those that come after it to reduce test time. What exactly am I doing at each box though? I don't have a tester that measures resistance, only a Home Depot store bought one that novices like myself use to check if there is power and if it is 120 or 240. So without a test meter to measure resistance, is my job, after bisecting to reduce time, to now remove all plate covers to those stops and look for what? I know you said to only concentrate on the black wires, but what exactly am I looking for? Am I to eventually find a black wire that is burnt, off the terminal, perhaps had fallen out of its wire cap? Thanks for keeping me in mind. While inconvenient given the circu

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... given the circuit being out, I am learning a ton. Probably should have known this before trying it out on my own...

Having trouble visualizing your lay out. Does this look anything like what you have. Pics would help.