We hired a contractor to build a screen-in-porch. We signed a contract for $4600 for the materials pkg and $3150 for his labor. It turned out that he ordered $1000 too much in materials. We are the ones that pd the $4600 to the lumber company. Yet, he returned the materials and thinks the money should be his. Says he really should have charged more in labor and so now he is happy. I AM NOT! We pd for all the wood - he should leave it with us or give us the return money. Am I wrong?

Contractor quoted a materials price that was $1000 more than needed. We wrote ck for materials but he says the money is his. He quoted us a total bid price but in two parts. We intend to pay his labor quote but believe the $1000 in returned materials is ours. Am I right

He quoted you with a price and the quoted price wasn't accurate, therefore he should have re-negotiated the quote instead of scamming the unused material for cash and not abiding by his quote. So his excuse for keeping the money is "I should have charge you more for Labor" What an idiot! If he quoted you for $4600 material & $3150 for labor, any unused material belong to you, because you bought it.

One of the reasons I don't quote labor separate from materials is just this.

The last 3 season porch I made,I said 50/50,material/labor.All receipts were shown to the customer,including gas.

There was no problem with doing this by either side.

Trusting a contractor is going to be difficult for you for a while,that's too bad, we don't all act like this guy.

He is wrong in his actions,he should have left the material there,had you return it(which might have cost you a return/restocking fee,but not the entire material costs) PLUS,if he had quoted the job low(as in this market,we need to keep costs as low as we can or we don't get the job!)renegotiated the labor with you.He signed,you signed,it's legal.

Do you have any legal grounds to get this money back?I can't tell you,I am not a lawyer, but if you ask this on the legal boards here on AMHD,there are some who can guide you to an answer.

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Originally Posted by screen porch

Am I wrong?

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Hello screen:

No. Sue him in small claims court. It's quick, cheap and easy.

excon

Who is right and who should receive any refunds or credits depends upon the language of the contract.

Without seeing that contract, no one here can offer any sensible answer.

We are only hearing one side of the story.

If the contract had a quoted rate of $4600 for materials and $3150 for labor, the total contract obligation by the owner is $7750 regardless of how much the actual materials cost, and any 'refunds' are legally due to the contractor, not the owner, even if the contractor mistakenly over-estimated the materials cost.

The original poster needs to contact his attorney and have his attorney sort it out, then sue the contractor if necessary, but from here, it does not look like the owner has a case and still owes the contractor $1000.

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Originally Posted by manhattan42

Without seeing that contract, no one here can offer any sensible answer.

The original poster needs to contact his attorney and have his attorney sort it out, then sue the contractor if necessary

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Hello manhattan:

In fact, it's YOUR answer that lacks sense, whereas MY answer is eminently sensible.

I DO agree with you, though. He DOES need a lawyer to "sort it out". I simply suggested that he see the judge/lawyer, who's only going to cost the filing fee (around $50) to sort it out, whereas his own personal attorney will charge him much more than that, and probably more than the $1,000 in dispute. Plus, if he spends money on his lawyer, only to find out that he DOES have a case, he's going to have to spend money on the filing fee anyway.

The OP should cut to the chase. He doesn't need to lay out the extra $$'s.

excon

I will agree, you paid for the material, so all the good and materials supplied are yours. ( unless the contract states he gets any excess material)

But I guess how did he return it, without a receipt, if you paid for it, then you got the receipt?

And how do you know you paid for it, didyou write a check to the lumber company, where you at the lumber company buying it.

Quess I am asking are you sure he did not pay off a past bill with the money you gave him and the bill is still due for your material.

But yes, sue him, it is easy, and it is cheap, you will have to prove he returned the items and need to know what items were left over

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Originally Posted by excon

Hello manhattan:

In fact, it's YOUR answer that lacks sense, whereas MY answer is eminently sensible.

I DO agree with you, though. He DOES need a lawyer to "sort it out". I simply suggested that he see the judge/lawyer, who's only going to cost the filing fee (around $50) to sort it out, whereas his own personal attorney will charge him much more than that, and probably more than the $1,000 in dispute. Plus, if he spends money on his lawyer, only to find out that he DOES have a case, he's going to have to spend money on the filing fee anyway.

The OP should cut to the chase. He doesn't need to lay out the extra $$'s.

excon

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Again, if a builder and owner agree to a project that costs $7600, and the builder estimates that he will use $4600 in materials but in the end only uses $3600 in materials...

The owner is still obligated to pay $7600... not $6600... because that is the price the contract stipulated. Period.

In such a case the builder is under no obligation whatsoever to return $1000 to the customer and the $1000 is considered his profit.

The original poster's explanation of the facts in this thread is confusing at best, and again, without seeing the actual contract... no one can answer.

Best the original poster talks to his attorney.

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Originally Posted by manhattan42

Best the original poster talks to his attorney.

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Hello again, manhattan:

You missed my point a second time. I didn't give him a LEGAL answer. I gave him a PRACTICAL answer, and it's a better solution than yours.

excon

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Originally Posted by Fr_Chuck

I will agree, you paid for the material, so all the good and materials supplied are yours. ( unless the contract states he gets any excess material)

But I guess how did he return it, without a reciept, if you paid for it, then you got the reciept ??

And how do you know you paid for it, didyou write a check to the lumber company, where you at the lumber company buying it.

Quess I am asking are you sure he did not pay off a past bill with the money you gave him and the bill is still due for your material.

But yes, sue him, it is easy, and it is cheap, you will have to prove he returned the items and need to know what items were left over

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Thanks for your help. We DID write the $4600 ck to the lumber company but NO, we have NO idea WHAT we bought since he refuses to give us any invoices. We may have bought him a new table saw or etc.

He is hung up on the fact that we signed a contract for $7800.00! I agree that IF we had signed a contract for $7800 and it had not been written in $4600 materials and $3150 in labor - he could have spent $2000 on materials and been EXPECTED to keep the rest (if the job was satisfactory. He is a small guy w/o work and instead of being so thankful that he made $3150 in less than ten days (he and helper, wife) he saw a chance to "pad" things.

I actually counted the bucket of nails that cost $90. Only 850 of the 2000 were used and yet HE took the bucket. Sure the same was true with staples and other supplies. He hauled off almost a roll of roofing paper and we don't know what else because we have NO INVOICE of what we bought.

I called ACE where we sent the ck for supplies but they, of course, are on his side. My goodness - they know they aren't going to make much on us in the future (we even live 35 miles away) but they have a good chance of selling to a contractor that lives in their small town. ALSO, he bragged about letting THEM figure what supplies were needed and then continued to fuss when it was wrong so ACE is protecting their man in that area too.

Thankfully we played along until he had EVERYTHING loaded and I said, now do you want to talk about the final check. He also had on their $200 for something he never told me he was charging me extra for. So, he does NOT have our money. He says we owe him $1700. W/o really having the facts and invoices on the lumber and materials situation we figure we owe him about $750. No final check has been written.

Do you think he could win in court?

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Originally Posted by KBC

One of the reasons I don't quote labor separate from materials is just this.

The last 3 season porch I made,I said 50/50,material/labor.All receipts were shown to the customer,including gas.

There was no problem with doing this by either side.

Trusting a contractor is going to be difficult for you for a while,that's too bad,,we don't all act like this guy.

He is wrong in his actions,he should have left the material there,had you return it(which might have cost you a return/restocking fee,but not the entire material costs) PLUS,if he had quoted the job low(as in this market,we need to keep costs as low as we can or we don't get the job!)renegotiated the labor with you.He signed,you signed,it's legal.

Do you have any legal grounds to get this money back?I can't tell you,I am not a lawyer,,but if you ask this on the legal boards here on AMHD,there are some who can guide you to an answer.

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Thank you so much for your help and would you please read my further answer "somewhere" in here?

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Originally Posted by manhattan42

Who is right and who should receive any refunds or credits depends upon the language of the contract.

Without seeing that contract, no one here can offer any sensible answer.

We are only hearing one side of the story.

If the contract had a quoted rate of $4600 for materials and $3150 for labor, the total contract obligation by the owner is $7750 regardless of how much the actual materials cost, and any 'refunds' are legally due to the contractor, not the owner, even if the contractor mistakenly over-estimated the materials cost.

The original poster needs to contact his attorney and have his attorney sort it out, then sue the contractor if necessary, but from here, it does not look like the owner has a case and still owes the contractor $1000.

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Thank you for helping us even though we don't like your answer. I can understand that if we had agreed and signed a contract to have the job done at $7800 - then if he only spent $2000 on materials - good for him and he gets the extra.

But since the contract separates HIS LABOR figure and our materials figure and says nothing about more or less - then it seems that he is getting what he agreed to $3150 and the materials are none of his business. Do you still think it wouldn't hold up in court? I made pictures of what was returned - called the company we wrote the check to and got pricing , etc.

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Originally Posted by manhattan42

Again, if a builder and owner agree to a project that costs $7600, and the builder estimates that he will use $4600 in materials but in the end only uses $3600 in materials...

The owner is still obligated to pay $7600...not $6600...because that is the price the contract stipulated. Period.

In such a case the builder is under no obligation whatsoever to return $1000 to the customer and the $1000 is considered his profit.

The original poster's explanation of the facts in this thread is confusing at best, and again, without seeing the actual contract...no one can answer.

Best the original poster talks to his attorney.

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The materials fee was NOT an estimate - we wrote out a ck to the lumber company for $4600 the night we signed the contract and gave it to the contractor. He is such a poor mgr. that he could not buy the materials himself. Therefore we took a risk and, as I said, have yet to see an invoice of what we bought. He refuses to let us see it.

AND, we paid and trusted him to only buy what we needed and he used. Even if he were "technically" allowed - integrity would say you be glad that the customer was able to save money?

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Originally Posted by screen porch

Thank you so much for your help and would you please read my further answer "somewhere" in here??

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This has always been a difficult area for the contracting trades,especially for the little guys(of which I am anymore)

IF the contract is legal(which a court might have to decide)=$$

IF you can show that he took items which you paid for in court=$$

You will need legal representation(unless you are prolific in the use of litigation,you wouldn't do this alone)=$$

It is assumed that we(the contractor) will not use ALL materials(felt paper,nails,staples,etc)which,in court,will be a given.

There is no way to use 2 square of felt when the roof only needs 1.5 square of paper,there will be left over materials like nails,staples,etc, you can reasonably assume that there will be a call for 2000 nails,but to use them all? No,we have to have them available for possible use,otherwise we will be back to the store for the 200 nails we need to finish,costing us time($$)

I am trying to make this understandable and as clear as possible for you.. I am going to ask another contractor to add to this thread, he has a good perspective and good advice,

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Originally Posted by KBC

This has always been a difficult area for the contracting trades,especially for the little guys(of which I am anymore)

IF the contract is legal(which a court might have to decide)=$$

IF you can show that he took items which you paid for in court=$$

You will need legal representation(unless you are prolific in the use of litigation,you wouldn't do this alone)=$$

It is assumed that we(the contractor) will not use ALL materials(felt paper,nails,staples,etc)which,in court,will be a given.

There is no way to use 2 square of felt when the roof only needs 1.5 square of paper,there will be left over materials like nails,staples,etc,,you can reasonably assume that there will be a call for 2000 nails,but to use them all? No,we have to have them available for possible use,otherwise we will be back to the store for the 200 nails we need to finish,costing us time($$)

I am trying to make this understandable and as clear as possible for you..I am going to ask another contractor to add to this thread,,he has a good perspective and good advice,,

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I understand that he cannot help how much of some materials, like roofing felt, and that some will be leftover. We do many projects around here and my husband has a 40 x 60 shop. WE will eventually use that stuff and the contractor knew that. To repair some of his work - we will probably have to go buy more of the exact nails and they are not cheap.

We wish we had used our "usual" contractor but this guy was begging for the job. At a previous house we had our "usual" build a screen porch He had us just buy the materials as he needed them or he would buy them and bring us the receipt for reimbursement. I'm sure that you always get stiffed some things and that is understandable.

I just feel that the fact that the contract says: Lumber pkg... $4600 and then labor $3150 for a total of $7800 gives us a break. He had to do this because he did not have the money or the credit with the lumber company to just keep his own open acct with them. If he had and just hamed a total price of $7800 then obviously he can do as he chooses.

We are christians and do not want to cheap him at all. In fact, had he not been so quick to show us he was not out for our best interests - and would cut corners where he could - we probably would have ignored the extra exchange or pd him a hefty bonus.

Also - my husband says there are grievances on our side if he was to take us to court: The roof slope is not to standard, the porch is not square, he did not it tight at all - inch gaps around all doors and even more when it connects to the house. Installed indoor outlet covers on our full length front porch. We will have to change those to outdoor covers. This was an extra $200 to put in 5 outlets - since they were buying the materials for that - they got flimsy 22cent indoor covers.

Thank you for helping us. We are waiting to hear from him again.

Sorry,

But from what I am reading, Screen Porch signed a contract to pay $4600 for materials and that, as they say, is that.

Doesn't matter if the materials cost less. Doesn't matter if he was a poor manager.

ScreenPorch is only complaining because she found out the material costs were less that $4600. What if the contractor came to her and told her the materials actually cost MORE? Would ScreenPorch be arguing that she shouldn't have to pay him because the contract said $4600 for materials?

I think so.

From here it appears that Screen Porch owes the man the full $4600 regardless of how much the materials actually cost... and he is under no obligation to provide Screen Porch with any receipts. Technically, the receipts are his since HE supplied the materials... not Screen Porch.

Screen Porch's receipt for $4600 by way of the canceled check is all the receipt he/she is required to get.

All due respect, I don't believe ScreenPorch has much of a case here... But she needs to get real legal advice from a local attorney, not advice on the internet.

Just remember the attorney's advice will likley cost more than what ScreenPorch already thinks she may have lost, and ScreenPorch could very likely pay the attorney a lot of money on top of paying the contractor... just to find that the contractor was right all along.

Personally, and for the relatively small amount of money involved, I'd pay the contractor and move on... Otherwise ScreenPorch could find the contractor having a lien placed upon her house and the house being sold out from under her to satisfy the lien.

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Originally Posted by manhattan42

Who is right and who should receive any refunds or credits depends upon the language of the contract.

Without seeing that contract, no one here can offer any sensible answer.

We are only hearing one side of the story.

If the contract had a quoted rate of $4600 for materials and $3150 for labor, the total contract obligation by the owner is $7750 regardless of how much the actual materials cost, and any 'refunds' are legally due to the contractor, not the owner, even if the contractor mistakenly over-estimated the materials cost.

The original poster needs to contact his attorney and have his attorney sort it out, then sue the contractor if necessary, but from here, it does not look like the owner has a case and still owes the contractor $1000.

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Things have changed. The contractor is angry (as you feel he should be and you may be right) but since he wants to nit pick - we are fighting back. With the money ($4600)) he bought the CHEAPEST screen doors he could, installed indoor electrical outlet covers on our front porch (5 of them) rather than outdoor covers which would only have cost about $15 more. AND my husband found that he did not put the 26 gage metal roofing on that the contract stipulated!! Does that give us legal grounds in your opinion?

Thank you for helping - again, we never want to cheat anyone but this guy cut corners everywhere he could and caused us to become suspicious. There are several other sus standard - or not up to specs in contract that he did not do.

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Originally Posted by screen porch

Does that give us legal grounds in your opinion?

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Hello again, screen:

Even though you IGNORED me when you answered everybody else, I'm still willing to help.

The only thing manhattan and I agree on, is that you need legal advice from someone OTHER than a stranger on the internet. What you're looking for is a DEFINITIVE answer on the law BEFORE you act. We're BOTH telling you, however, that you're not going to find it here.

So, I'm back to my original solution. It's cheaper to visit the judge/lawyer who is actually the one who'll eventually have to render his opinion if you DO decide to sue. I'm just trying to steer you to the BEST solution for the least cost.

I know you don't want to cheat anybody... But, there are many disputes by honest people thinking they're right. The court won't get mad at you if you're wrong. The problem here, is the contract and how it was written.

That's a plus for you, though. If the dispute winds up being about the WORDING of the contract, the judge will rule against the one who WROTE the contract. In this instance, it looks like him.

In terms of your new claims, I'll bet the contract doesn't call for you to approve the purchases he made before he made them. You can't go back and make provisions in your contract there weren't there in the first place. So, no - your new claims aren't going to fly.

excon

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Originally Posted by screen porch

Things have changed. The contractor is angry (as you feel he should be and you may be right) but since he wants to nit pick - we are fighting back. With the money ($4600)) he bought the CHEAPEST screen doors he could, installed indoor electrical outlet covers on our front porch (5 of them) rather than outdoor covers which would only have cost about $15 more. AND my husband found that he did not put the 26 gage metal roofing on that the contract stipulated!!! Does that give us legal grounds in your opinion?

Thank you for helping - again, we never want to cheat anyone but this guy cut corners everywhere he could and caused us to become suspicious. There are several other sus standard - or not up to specs in contract that he did not do.

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You may have legitimate complaints with the work done by the builder and some complaints may in fact violate your contract.

(The missing weather proof covers on the outdoor electrical receptacles are a code violation, but easily corrected)

But again, no one here has read your contract and no one here has heard both sides of this story.

Call your attorney to have him assess the contract and your legal rights under it, then proceed from there.

No one here is telling you not to fight for your rights.

What we are telling you is that no one here can tell you what your rights are without knowing the language of the contract and the laws of your state or province.

Based on the scant information you have provided, it still appears you will owe the balance on the materials less any legitimate claims against the workmanship or violations in the agreement defining what materials would be used.

At best, you may get some credit for the roof (the price difference between a 26 gauge vs whatever gauge metal roof he installed) but not much else.

So talk to your attorney.

Magistrates or small claims Judges cannot give you legal advice, nor can anyone else here.

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Originally Posted by excon

I DO agree with you, though. He DOES need a lawyer to "sort it out". I simply suggested that he see the judge/lawyer, who's only going to cost the filing fee (around $50) to sort it out,

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Originally Posted by manhattan42

Magistrates or small claims Judges cannot give you legal advice, nor can anyone else here.

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Good Morning again, porch:

Although I was sloppy in my word usage, I would hope you didn't think I was advising you to stroll into the courthouse and knock on the judges door for advice...

What I was advising you to do is file your small claims case. When you have your hearing, the judge will RULE, and you'll KNOW what the law is in your particular case. You won't have PAID for an attorney's OPINION. It is absolutely the cheapest way for you to resolve your case.

excon