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When you want to lead you have to be squeaky clean. Now I wonder will the Pope recuse himself from the post for failing to uphold the standards he expects of others
EU-church-abuse
I know it is an obvious question but how could someone who is obviously falliable be infalliable? At the risk of being accused of RCC bashing, I think this is a fair question. To what standard must we hold leadership accountable?
paraclete,
By now you SHOULD know that a pope is infallible only when inspired by the Holy Spirit and it has happen very few times in history.
If I remember correctly only three times.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
So Fred how come so infrequently. It is interesting that the Church survived over 1800 years without papal infalliability and that the only time it has been exercised is to introduce dogma about Mary. In a world such as this you would have thought God might have had some important corrections to make.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
Perhaps it is you need to have an extraordinary life before God will bestow the gift of being that close to the Holy Spirit, but seriously, Fred, it seems the walk of this Pope might have been seriously flawed by poor judgement in certain matters.
I also note that a thread in which you accused me of being loose with the truth about the RCC has been closed without my right of reply. Let's examine the truth shall we Fred? On every continent there are reports of abuse of children and others by Catholic Clergy, some of this is homosexual abuse and some is taking advantage of the councellor's role. In a RCC school near where I live there is even occult practices associated with child abuse. There has been a complete abrogation of their fiduciary responsibility and what is worse those in authority have been shown to cover these things up and not deal effectively with them so that the abusers have been able to continue. You apparently think that such behaviour should not be criticised and the responsibility sheeted home to where it rests, at the top. Now the other aspects of this is the problem is so endemic that there must be a fundamental problem with the system. Fred I deplore that Christians should bring Christ and his Church into disrepute and as a Christian I ask myself how can those who hold themselves out in the community to have a certain standard of righteousness and trust be so corrupt. So Fred I don't excuse Christians of any persuasion, this is a widespead problem in society and it needs to be dealt with effectively, firstly by prosecuting the offenders and secondly by removing the possibility of it happening in the first place. Theses things cannout be swept away by some bland statement that the RCC is the true church. I think we need to hold it up to the light.
paraclete,
As you know each one of us has the gift od free.
But unfortunately there are those in every walk of society who use it for evil purposes.
As far as the Catholic Church is concerned it is reported that ONLY 15% of the clergy are those who got into sex abuse trouble. I say only because in others it is 23%.
As far as I'm concerned even 1% is far too many in Holy Church, but all are human beings with human imperfections and weaknesses.
As to infallibility keep in mind that the magisterium of The Church is also guided by the Holy Spirit. As a collective body it makes policy decision which are OFFICIAL.
I find it interesting that you first complained about the pope's infallibility one way and now that you know he has been instructed by God to use it only three times and you question that.
I do believe you are struggling with your nit picking.
I'm beginning to wonder just how far you will go in your attempt to belittle God's Holy Church.
I am really very sad that you did not find full understanding in and of The Church.
I've been praying to the Holy Spirit to please help you.
I do hope He answers those prayers with positivity.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Twist and turn all you like Fred but the reality is the church is not supposed to be like the world. Was it the magisterium of the Church or the Holy spirit who allowed the Inquisition, Fred, I think we should leave the Holy Spirit out of the responsibility for the decision making of the Church, Fred, for I doubt he inspired pogroms, or the trade in indulgences. I think it is you who lack understanding of what the Church should be. There is a higher incidence of abusive behaviour among Clergy than is evident in society in general. I'm not prepeared to write it off as human nature because Christians are supposed to be born again. Is that a concept your Church understands, Fred, do you think, or has it somehow eluded the clergy.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
paraclete,
Of course The Church believes and teaches about being born again.
You should know that. The more you past the more I'm convinced that you may have been brought up a Catholic and went to a Catholic school you understand very littkle about the official Church.
You are good at digging up dirt that members over the years did.
You seem to think that all Church members must be perfect and not the huiman beings that they are.
Tell me, no prove to me, one born again Christian who has not and does not sin.
We are all human and sinners.
Being borna again is a top priority of the Catholic Church.
The reason is that Jesus told the leaders of His Church that they MUST be born again so it has been taught throughout the ages.
He said it like this...
Matthew 28:20 Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and behold I am with you all days, even to the consummation of the world.
AND THAT IS WHAT THEY DID AND STILL DO.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Let's get to the nub of the whole thing Fred. The Church, the called out ones, are supposed to exhibit a higher standard of behaviour and call themselves to account.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
How do you expect people to want to be part of a Church which cannot exercise self contol in moral matters, let alone continue in a hypocritical preaching of righteousness while committing vile acts. These are not the acts of someone who is born again. Look at the statement you just provided and then tell me the Church has upheld that standard. The reality is you can't. So you think it is only 15% that pull it down, Where are the 85% shouting against them. If this happen in secular circles you would have riots in the streets. Jesus did not command them to do the things they do. Scripture did not command them to do the things they do. And I'm not just speaking historically. Look, you belong to whatever Church you want, but don't try to tell me that that Church has some dispensation because of Christ's relationship with Peter to be preeminent. Revelation 2 and 3 suggests otherwise. Don't tell me that that Church has some exceptional hold on the truth because I look at the fruit it bears and I just don't see it. And don't plead human nature because that is what Christ came to save us from.
Many years ago I worked for a plumber and he told me a secret.
Manure does NOT flow up hill!
Over the years I have also learned that this adage holds true for organization also.
paraclete,
You are right that people with such a calling are EXPECTED to live to a higher standard. In fact it is demanded.
And in most cases that IS exactly what has been done.
BUT some people fail. That has been happening throughout history starting with Adam and EVE.
If you can not see or accept that I am surprised.
By the way, the latest news about the man who is now pope having anything t do with that German case is that He had NOTHING to do with it nor was he in a position to do anything about it.
450donn, yes manure does not flow up hill so please quit trying to force it. Your hostility is sickening.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
Fred, there is a problem with all of this and you know as well as I do that the problem is not an isolated case but a serious derelection by a large number of people both prepetrators and protectors over a long period. Whether the Pope had anything to do with it while he was a Bishop is academic really, it happen in his See while he was in charge. So individuals might fail but we are talking here of a large number of individuals who have failed in both a particular way, and various ways, and there are a great deal of unanswered questions regarding how the problem could be as large as it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
What I see is this Fred
These people have not been properly instructed as to their responsibilities, most notably a duty of care
These people have shown no contrition, note I use the Catholic word, for their acts and have continued to offend
There has been a complete abrogation of responsibility by leadership
So therefore I have made the statement that the rot goes all the way to the top because the problem is leadership or lack thereof
paraclete,
Have it your way.
I'll go by the news and it says that he had nothing to do with it and was not responsible.
Peace and kindness,
Fred
So Fred at last you see the point all of us have been trying to get across. I truly hope you do and have not decided to just avoid the issue. What we know out here is that leadership is always the issue and leadership is always responsible. We know this not because we are perfect, but because we have witnessed many failures and learned from them.Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
The most misunderstood thing in the Christian Church is leadership. Saying it does not make it so, that is a pharonic concept which has no place in the Church
paraclete,
I'll stand by what I said.
He had NOTHING to do with it.
Fred
The Pope had nothing to do with it. It’s just more of that hypocritical ‘Jim Jones’ style hate-Catholic Cool Aid somebody been drinking. They do this because somehow it makes such people ‘holier than thou’. Here’s a debunking article, as if you would find it necessary, but it shows how the enemies of the Church fabricate their own filth:Quote:
Originally Posted by arcura
A Response to Christopher Hitchens' 'The Great Catholic Coverup'
But, these great paragons of Catholic-haters wouldn’t want you to see the hundreds and thousands of cases in the Protestant churches. Here is just one link of what the filth of mankind is capable of (hundreds of cases from just one denomination- I wonder what the statistics would be for some 30,000 denominations (you reckon they’re covering it up?): StopBaptistPredators.org
And out of the heart of the Southern Baptist, Evangelical world, Nashville Tennessee – which is by the way the greatest state in the union – we get this report:
Some of the only numbers come from three insurance companies — Church Mutual Insurance Co., GuideOne Insurance Co. and Brotherhood Mutual Insurance Co.
Together, they insure 165,495 churches and worship centers for liability against child sex abuse and other sexual misconduct, mostly Protestant congregations but a few other faiths as well. They also insure more than 5,500 religious schools, camps and other organizations.
The companies represent a large chunk of all U.S. Protestant churches. There are about 224,000 in the U.S., according to the Association of Statisticians of American Religious Bodies, although that number excludes most historically black denominations and some other groups, which account for several thousand congregation.
Church Mutual, GuideOne and Brotherhood Mutual each provided statistics on sex abuse claims to The Associated Press, although they did not produce supporting documentation or a way to determine whether the reports were credible.
The largest company, Church Mutual, reported an average of about 100 sex abuse cases a year involving minors over the past decade. GuideOne, which has about half the clients of Church Mutual, said it has received an average of 160 reports of sex abuse against minors every year for the past two decades.
Brotherhood Mutual said it has received an average of 73 reports of child sex abuse and other sexual misconduct every year for the past 15 years. However, Brotherhood does not specify which victims are younger than 18 so it is impossible to accurately add that to the total cases. 3 insurers shed light on Protestant church sex abuse | Top stories | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle
This is just a tip of the iceberg; and it doesn’t even represent ALL the Protestant insurers in the U.S. underwriting sexual abuse! On the average there are about 200 cases per year of abuse by Catholic Priests around the world, and about 300 cases reported each year by these three Protestant insurance underwriters just for the United States alone. Interesting the way the statistics were presented – almost like the writer didn’t want you to see the magnitude of the problem. If you add up the numbers and roughly round the numbers off in the article, what you see is that the Protestants need to start worrying about what’s going on behind their podiums instead of what’s going on in front of the Catholic’s altar. This data would suggest that while Catholics may have a problem, which is being addressed by the Pope, trending towards a few hundred abusive priests each year, at the same time we could have a systemic problem of a few thousand abusive Protestants each year being ignored. I guess the Protestant is too worried about the speck in the Catholic eye to see the beams in their own eye? Maybe the Protestants can ask the Pope how they should handle the problem - seems he's doing a good job combating it even when it is found within his own ramparts.
JoeT
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