I dread the day I ever heard about weep holes! I made a huge mistake during my shower remodel. I re-used my old cast iron drain but never checked for open weep holes. I measured and cut the hole for the drain, placed the membrane over the drain, and presumably over the weep holes and sealed it. I poured my concrete, properly slopped it towards the drain, then tiled the floor and the walls. A week or so after the job was finished I started to get water puddling from the outside shower walls onto the bathroom floor after 8-10 minutes into a shower. I blocked off the shower head with a plug and ran the water on full to eliminate a plumbing problem. Now for my questions.
(1) Is it normal for new shower tile grout that is less than 2 weeks old to allow water to seep down through the concrete and into the shower pan that quickly? (2) If so, are the covered weep holes the culprit causing the water not to drain, or could it be a combination of the grout and blocked weep holes? (3) Is there any way to determine what might be casusing this leak without having to rip the entire floor out again?

Should I try to seal the grout with silicon sealer and see what happens? I can't believe I have a beautifuly tiled new shower and can't use it, I feel sick. Speedball1,, are you out there? A fellow Sarasotan needs your help :-(

When you say "outside walls" - do you mean shower walls facing exterior ? How cold does it gets in your area ? Any wall insulation installed inside this wall ? What type of walls do you have in your shower : backing board, or is it floated ?

Weep holes should be open allowing condensation to drain into the drain. However, I doubt condensation accumulates so quickly that you can see it n 10 minutes.

If you are seeing water on the bathroom floor then your pan liner is leaking. The weep holes are designed for the water in the liner to drain & should be kept cement free when installing the pan by using a weep hole protector or pea gravel. Regular grout is porous & will allow water do drain through it. It sounds like you need to remove the bottom row of wall tile & replace the shower pan. Install a pre-fabricated pre-slope before you install the pan liner this time to eliminate any mold build up. Also, buy a waterproofing membrane to use on the floor as a back up to your liner in case it fails again.

Ok, sorry, here's the project from start to finish: We are in Florida so cold is not a factor and no there is no insulation in the walls. So, we completely rebuilt the entire bathroom only 3 weeks ago. Tore out shower floor and ALL shower walls! Re-plumbed control valve and all shower pipes, no problem. Couldn't budge it so I cleaned and re-used the old cast iron drain. Fabricated and installed my threshold. No here's where I think I goofed up: I cut an X in membrane tight enough to fit over drain (unknowingly ingnoring the weep holes), ran membrane up the studs 1 full ft high all around and over the threshold, secured with staples high enough not to cause a problem. Used cement board top to bottom on all shower walls. Installed a permanent 8 arm plastic "slope kit" to properly float concrete to drain. My son -in law took it from here: He mixed the concrete, floated it towards the drain perfectly and let it dry 24 hrs. He then mixed the tile adhesive and laid the tile floor with 3x3 small tiles. He let the floor dry 2 days then proceeded to tile the entire shower with larger 1 ft tiles. I used a small paint brush to brush some clear grout sealer onto the floor and wall grout. After 2 days, we started showering. After a week or so, we then noticed the water puddling out from the "front exterior" wall of the shower. Last night I completely blocked off the drain with a plug, filled the shower floor with 2 inchs of water and within 2-3 hrs the puddles started to appear and the water level dropped. From what Ive been reading, it must be the weep holes because Im almost 99% sure the membranes corners are folded properly and its not torn . I know I should have of done a water test after the membrane was installed, but I didn't. These were uncharted terrertories for me. It does sound like a pan or drain problem, does it not?


Sorry, one thing I forgot to mention, I did notice one of the small floor tiles definitely has a corner to corner hairline crack in it, could this small crack allow that much water through
to cause this tyoe of leak? Thanks again guys for all your responses.

Shower drain is like a shell. It consists of 2 pieces. In your case, you should have unscrewed the 3 drain bolts and remove the upper portion of the drain. Lower portion remains attached to the drain pipe. You take Henry 208 or similar product and put a generous bead onto the body of the old, lower half of the drain. Then you install liner over the entire pan, covering the bottom portion of the drain. You don't cut the liner. Leave it as one, continuous piece of liner. Once the liner is installed and entire pan covered (waterproofed), you install the upper portion of the drain sandwiching the liner between upper and lower half of the drain. Secure the upper half with the lower half of the drain with the original 3 bolts. Now , you proceed with mortar bed, tile, sealer, etc. Once entire shower is finished, grouted, sealed, etc - you remove drain cover ( grid cover), take knife and only now carefully cut out the PVC liner from inside of the drain exposing drain hole.

What happened in your water test is that the weep holes are actually allowing water to get under the pan in backwards fashion. They do exactly the opposite what they are supposed to do: to allow condensation to drain out and away from the pan.

Sorry to say but since you did not sandwich the PVC liner between the lower and upper portion of the drain - your pan is not water proofed. It will allow water to get onto sub-floor.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milo Dolezal

Shower drain like a shell. It consists of 2 pieces. In your case, you should have unscrew the 3 drain bolts and remove the upper portion of the drain. Lower portion remains attached to the drain pipe. You take Henry 208 or similar product and put a generous bead onto the body of the old, lower half of the drain. Then you install liner over the entire pan, covering the bottom portion of the drain. You don't cut the liner. Leave it as one, continuous piece of liner. Once the liner is installed and entire pan covered (waterproofed), you install the upper portion of the drain sandwiching the liner between upper and lower half of the drain. Secure the upper half with the lower half of the drain with the original 3 bolts. Now , you proceed with mortar bed, tile, sealer, etc. Once entire shower is finished, grouted, sealed, etc - you remove drain cover ( grid cover), take knife and only now carefully cut out the PVC liner from inside of the drain exposing drain hole.

What happened in your water test is that the weep holes are actually allowing water to get under the pan in backwards fashion. They do exactly the opposite what they are supposed to do: to allow condensation to drain out and away from the pan.

Sorry to say but since you did not sandwich the PVC liner between the lower and upper portion of the drain - your pan is not water proofed. it will allow water to get onto sub-floor.

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Thank you so much for your response Milo, that sounds very logical. Going on that evaulation, I have just a few more questions if you wouldn't mind. Sorry to be a PIA.
(1) Do you think I'll need to rip up the entire new tile floor to work on the drain body, or can I remove a foot or so of surrounding tile and mortar to expose enough of the drain to do what I have to do.
(2) Once exposed, do you have any tips on removing the corroded/frozen top part of the drain, it is 40 years old and so corroded that I can't see any seams or threads so I don't know if it prys off or screws off. If I can't remove it, can it be cut and some sort new drain insert adapter be used?
(3) Lastly, if all goes well with the drain, will I be able to patch a piece of membrane onto the exsisting membrane around the new drain area using waterproof silicone or glue?

I know it's a lot of questions but I really need some guidance on this one. Thanks! :confused:

We have couple of Shower Pan / Tilemen installers / Experts in this forum. Lets see if they can offer their own opinion on your situation. But in the interim:

1. If I did the pan installation - may it be in my own house or in a house of one of my customers - I would removed the pan completely. But that's me and the way I/we work. I could not sleep at night knowing such an important step in waterproofing was omitted

2. Are you on Slab or Raised foundation ?

If you are on Raised Foundation than it is easy. Go under the house, cut off the trap, remove entire drain with trap and install new one. If this shower is on 2nd floor, do the same through opening in the ceiling bellow.

If you are on slab than first determine whether the drain is screwed on to threaded piece of pipe or is attached via rubber gasket. If it is on rubber gasket then it is easy to lift. If it is screwed on than carefully break the drain with club-hammer and small chisel. Here, you must be careful not to hit it too hard so you don't break trap. Be patient. Do it piece by piece. Once the drain cracks in thread area then it will split in half by itself.

3. Something tells me it is doable. But I have never done such a patch work.Yes, PVC liner can be glued together. They sell dedicated glue made just for PVC liners. But, lets see what our shower pan Experts have to say about it first.

Perhaps you can snap few pics of the drain so we can see what we are dealing with...

Sorry about the bad news but it is better that you know all the facts. This way you will be able to prevent even more damage that will undoubtfully occur if the pan is left the way it is...

Thanks Milo I really appreciate your straight fowardness. I am on a slab. The only reason I ask about patching the membrane is that the exsisting membrane is brand new and I've since read about plumbers being able to successfully patch them. When I get the floor up I will post photos of the drain. Any other advice from the pan experts you mentioned on this forum would be much appreciated. Thanks again. :)

Here's a photo of a drain identical to mine. Surprisingly its in one of your threads Milo in this forum! Unfortunelty it doesn't show the part beneath the concrete which it the part in question and difficult to come off.

https://www.askmehelpdesk.com/plumbi...in-266872.html

http://i45.tinypic.com/2zfsf9c.jpg

I can tell you from experience that anytime you try to repair a pan liner with a patch it is not a good idea. I would highly recommend you remove the entire pan & start from scratch. Milo hit it on the head with the drain. The pan liner must be sandwiched between the 2 parts & also should be siliconed. Go to a local tile store & buy a $5 weep hole protector to prevent any concrete from getting in the weep holes. They also make the preformed "pro-slopes" so you have something under the liner that is pushing the water in the pan towards the drain. Also, purchase a waterproofing membrane. I recommend a product made by Mapei called Aquadefense. Waterproof the entire area & once you pour the pan, waterproof that as well after 24 hours. One of the biggest areas of concern for leaking in a shower area is the curb. Make certain you wrap the liner over the curb & waterproof that as well. You will need to wait another 24 hours to let the waterproofing dry on the concrete before you tile.

Thanks for the pic. It is very helpful. I cannot read from this pic whether the pipe is plastic (ABS or PVC) or cast iron. Perhaps, you will remember this detail. But it is not Cast Iron head. That's for sure.

If you really (really) want to just patch it - then cut 12" x 12" square around the drain. Carefully remove the tile and concrete. Make sure you don't puncture the existing membrane. Take chip-hammer and hammer out about 1" around the drain. See if you can cut that drain body on the exterior with sawzall. Cut in several places. Then take flate skinny screwdriver, insert it bet. The pipe and drain body and prey it open. It should snap.

But still - I would not recommend patching it...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milo Dolezal

Thanks for the pic. It is very helpful. I cannot read from this pic whether the pipe is plastic (ABS or PVC) or cast iron. Perhaps, you will remember this detail. But it is not Cast Iron head. That's for sure.

If you really (really) want to just patch it - then cut 12" x 12" square around the drain. Carefully remove the tile and concrete. Make sure you don't puncture the existing membrane. Take chip-hammer and hammer out about 1" around the drain. See if you can cut that drain body on the exterior with sawzall. Cut in several places. Then take flate skinny screwdriver, insert it bet. the pipe and drain body and prey it open. It should snap.

But still - I would not recommend patching it....

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After I take out 1" of slab and cut the drain pipe, what should I use to repair the drain body? Do they sell a drain body insert that seals when inserted into the cut drain pipe and is flush to the floor, or do I connect a sleeve of some sort over the cut pipe and then attach a new drain head to it?

They sell Cast Iron drains that slip over existing 2" pipe and seal with fat washer. It is exactly what you need for your situation. Is this what your drain looks like now?? See the pic...

Hey Quintas,
Greetings from your neighbor just north of the airport in Whitfield Estates. I was one of Arrow Plumbing foremen. I might even have done your unit back then. Listen to Milo and our newest expert, tile gruu.
They know what they're talking about. If you didn't sandwich the pan between the two section of the flange type shower drain there ain't no amount of patching going to fix that.
No matter how many ways you slice it, no matter what your pipes are, ( back then we used cast iron on condos and PVC in single family dwellings.) you're looking at tearing the job out and doing it right. We can help. You already have two of our best on board.
Good luck, Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

Hey Quintas,
Greetings from your neighbor just noth of the airport in Whitfield Estates. I was one of Arrow Plumbing foremen. I might even have done your unit back then. Listen to Mile and our newest expert, tile gruu.
They know what they're talking about. If you didn't sandwich the pan between the two section of the flange type shower drain there ain't no amount of patching gonna fix that.
No matter how many ways you slice it, no matter what your pipes are, ( back then we used cast iron on condos and PVC in single family dwellings.) you're looking at tearing the job out and doing it right. We can help. You already have two of our best on board.
Good luck, Tom

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Hey Speedball, glad to hear from you. Im just off Clark Rd. in South Sarasota and trying not to blow my stack over this stupid error. Yes, I realize just a patch and nothing else won't solve the problem, however
That was not my plan. I'm hoping that if I can cut out about 1 sq ft of floor and somehow get the old drain out, replace it, then sandwich the new membrane patch between the new drains flanges, it may solve my problem. I understand there is a special membrane adhesive made just for this type of patching. To be held hostage by this stupid mistake is so frustrating. Whether I do a full or partial tear out, the drain removal is still going to be a major obstical. If you could please take a look at MILO'S photo
(which looks exactly like my drain, exactly!) and see if you have any thoughts at all on how I should go about getting this drain out of the slab, or as I said above, is cutting the exsisting pipe and using a special adapter an option? I mentioned earlier that this house was made in the 60's so I don't think there is pvc below the slab. Thanks again for your response Speedball and any input you can offer. quintas

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milo Dolezal

They sell Cast Iron drains that slip over existing 2" pipe and seal with fat washer. It is exactly what you need for your situation. Is this what your drain looks like now ??? See the pic...

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:D yes yes yes Milo! That is exactly what it looks like. "A crusted over chunk of metal in cement that won't budge." That's amazing, it looks like you took a picture of my shower floor! Does this special slip on drain have a name, is it available at a Home Depot/ Lowe's, and does it have flanges I can sandwich the membrane patch between? L assume I cut the drain off the pipe coming out of the slab leaving maybe 2-3 inches above the surface to allow the new drain to slip onto?

You don't have to take the whole drain out. It is usually the upper part of the drain that is all banged up. Lower is usually OK and can be reused. Do this:

Drain has 3 s.s. bots. Unscrew them. Use ratchet set. Remove upper half of the drain by inserting flat screwdriver between the upper and lower half of the drain and preying it off. Should go easy. What's holding it now is only silicone caulk or old tar. Leave the bottom half attached. Clean it very well first with chisel then with sandpaper.

Take the upper half of the drain with you down to the store and purchase same drain. Most of the drains have same configuration.

Once back home, separate upper and lower halves of the new drain. Toss the bottom half. After your PVC liner patch is in - Use the upper half of the new drain to attach it to the lower half with s.s. bolts (new or old ones ) over the liner.

You should be able to accomplish this with both ABS/PVC or Cast Iron drain heads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Milo Dolezal

You don't have to take the whole drain out. It is usually the upper part of the drain that is all banged up. Lower is usually OK and can be reused. Do this:

Drain has 3 s.s. bots. Unscrew them. Use ratchet set. Remove upper half of the drain by inserting flat screwdriver between the upper and lower half of the drain and preying it off. Should go easy. What's holding it now is only silicone caulk or old tar. Leave the bottom half attached. Clean it very well first with chisel then with sandpaper.

Take the upper half of the drain with you down to the store and purchase same drain. Most of the drains have same configuration.

Once back home, separate upper and lower halves of the new drain. Toss the bottom half. After your PVC liner patch is in - Use the upper half of the new drain to attach it to the lower half with s.s. bolts (new or old ones ) over the liner.

You should be able to accomplish this with both ABS/PVC or Cast Iron drain heads.

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Thanks Milo, that is very helpful. Now I just need to break away all that 40yr old crusted cement around the base to expose those 3 bolts you're talking about. Hope they don't break when I wrench them! :eek: I'll re-post and update you all when I get past this problem. Thank you again for ally our input. :D

You have been given several options. Tile Guru was the best but Milos was the easiest. What's your pleasure? In case it's slipped your mind this is flange type shower drain, (see image). The membrane goes under the top part this time and protect those weep holes. Good luck, Tom

Thanks Speedball. Yup, I recognize the drain. I understand now about how the weep holes work and having to sandwich the membrane. But I still think my biggest problem will be how I'm going to attach the new drain assembly to whatever I'm able to salvage coming out of the slab. Not sure if I can just cut the pipe leaving 2-3 inches above the slab for me to slip that drain over, or if that's even possible.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by quintas

Thanks Speedball. Yup, I recognize the drain. I understand now about how the weep holes work and having to sandwich the membrane. But I still think my biggest problem will be how I'm going to attach the new drain assembly to whatever I'm able to salvage coming out of the slab. Not sure if I can just cut the pipe leaving 2-3 inches above the slab for me to slip that drain over, or if thats even possible.

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You're going to simply replace what? The new drain assembly and leave the membrane alone? I don't understand. You're not going to chip out the tile and mortar down to the flange and install the membrane correctly. You're still looking for a quick and easy fix? You don't want to tear the job out and do it right as the Tile Guru suggested and it sounds like you aren't into Milos suggestion. Am I missing something here? Is there a way to correct this by simply adding a drain and leaving the weep holes clogged and the membrane on top of the flange? If something's come up since I've retired please let me know.
You must have a plan that I'm not privy to. Care to share? Tom

Quote:

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Originally Posted by speedball1

You're gonna simply replace what?? The new drain assembly and leave the membrane alone? I don't understand. You're not gonna chip out the tile and mortar down to the flange and install the membrane correctly. You're still looking for a quick and easy fix? You don't wanna tear the job out and do it right as the Tile Guru suggested and it sounds like you aren't into Milos suggestion. Am I missing something here? Is there a way to correct this by simply adding a drain and leaving the weep holes clogged and the membrane on top of the flange? If something's come up since I've retired please let me know.
You must have a plan that I'm not privy to. Care to share? Tom

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Tom,
Wooo slow down Tom, you are "definetly missing something here".
Of course I'm going to address the membrane/drain/weep hole issue. Everyone here made it very clear that that was the source of my problem. If you would look at posts 11,14 and 16, I clearly talk about removing 1-2 sq ft of tile and floor,gaining access to the drain,and installing a new membrane patch between flnages. Now, what I meant in my last post to you, and where I think you misunderstood me, was that AFTER ripping up floor tile and cement, "my BIGGEST problem would be what options I would have for dealing with a badly corroded drain assembly". So yes, I will rip up floor, repair/replace drain,sandwich new patch between flanges and re-do floor. :)