Hello

I am getting down to wiring the garage now for lights plugs and 50amp welder.

In earlier posts I received a lot of well appreciated information on my 100 amp sub panel in the basement taken from the tap box I installed above the 200 amp main disconnect.

Thanks again to Tkrussell, Washington1 and others that have contributed.

By the way Tk your Pink Floyd "Dark side of the moon" logo brings back some old memories. It would make interesting music for wiring up a job lol.

Originally I was going to run all the wires out to the garage from the 100 amp sub panel but I am thinking it may be better and more convenient to just run one wire out into the garage to a 100 amp sub. That will give me mush less wires going through the chase along the back side of the basement ceiling and also allow me to have access to the breakers right in the garage. It will also allow me to keep a few breakers free in the new 100 amp sub in the back left end of the basement as it is filling up fast with the surge arrester ,arc fault,ground fault and double pole breakers as well as the circuits that need to be on separate breakers. The sub panel to the garage will save me from having to use an twin or quad breakers in the new Siemens 100 amp sub panel. The panel states it can use the twins and quads throughout the panel but from the feedback I have received from my other post most of the electricians seem to frown on using the twins and quads mostly because of possible overheating issues of the breaker and panel bus connection. I haven't found any solid data on failure of these breakers to support these claims though but a margin for safety is always a good idea. The twins and quads seem to be a good idea too lol.

So I believe I have only one choice as a start point for the circuit and that is at the tap box. I can't see putting a 100 amp breaker with in the new 100amp sub that has it's own 100 amp main breaker as that just doesn't seem to make sense.

Ok if I go this route then I would proceed as follows,

1. Take out the permit (Keeps Ontario Hydro happy!)
2. Install sub panel on garage/basement wall about 1/3 from back of garage.
3. Install 100 amp disconnect beside panel.
4. Run my circuits from the sub panel for welder,lights, wall plugs,central vac,sub pump,heater circuit and exterior garage GFIC plugs etc.
5. Run feeder wire from tap box to 100 amp disconnect in garage. Connect feeder ground to tap box panel ground and main disconnect panel ground.
6. Run feeder wires from 100 Amp disconnect to 100 amp sub panel as well as feeder ground wire from disconnect panel to sub panel. Keep all grounds separate from the isolated common connectors.
7. Call in inspection and if all good flip the disconnect switch with eyes closed and fingers crossed behind back.

My main question is does this seem like a logical way to go and if so what size wire would be best for the feeder?

Our code book here in Ontario states for 100 amp you will need
2- #3 R90XLPE black,red or blue for the hot
1-#3 R90XLPE white for the neutral
1-#6 copper for the ground wire
All these wires should be in 1 1/4" conduit.

Can I run insulated #2-3 wire plus ground copper cable without a conduit through the ceiling chase in the back of the basement? The reason why I ask this is there is a length of it over at the habitat for humanity store that is in good condition and the right length for around $75.

Do I have the disconnect in the right place and is it a problem having more than one new sub panel?

Thanks

Hi

Just an update.

I was informed by an electrical supplier that I could use #2 3-conductor ACWU 90 aluminum wire for the 100 Amp sub panel feeder. According to him that is what all the installers in the area are using for feeder wire as it is a lot cheaper than the one gauge lighter copper wire. Comes to around $5.75 a meter and you don't need conduit.

Any comments on the garage panel plans and the ACWU wire?

I am still trying to confirm this with the local inspector but he is tied up for 2-3 weeks!

Good thing that I am very busy at the moment too.

Thanks

Wire shown at

Armoured Cables

The cable is fine, it is listed in the datasheet good for a residential feeder, sub service they call it.

Honestly, the image is blurry, looks adequate, but hard to look at too long to tell what may need to change.

Rock on forever, Pink Floyd.

Hi

Sorry about the blurry picture TK. It is clear in the cad program but when you export to JPG it looses quality. Don't stare at it too long as you might slip back to War Memorial Stadium in the 70's for a Pink Floyd show (ha ha). I was there.

That blurry layout was for the version where all the wires were run out to the garage from the 100 amp sub at the far left upper side of the basement.

The new images are with the second sub panel in the garage. I like this version better as it has a lot less wires running across the back basement ceiling chase and gives me more control from the garage.

The 100 amp Square D panel I bought has a space for a breaker or disconnect but the spot is empty.

I was planning on putting a 100 Amp Fuse disconnect back in the far left of the basement near the source of the feeder wire from switch box.

Do I need a disconnect (non-fused) at the garage end or is that just for convenience?

I tried to blow up the plan a little better at the garage end I hope it looks OK. The electrical1.zip has a dwg file that is much clearer. There may be a blooper here and there as I haven't gone over in detail yet.

Thanks

Your in Canada, and I can only quote USA NEC Code, there is not much difference, but can be subtle differences, so you should check with the local inspector.

If similar to NEC, all 120 volt receptacles will need to be GFI protected in the garage.

The sub panel will not need a Main, as the feeder and panel will lbe protected by the CB at the Main Distribution panel. You may have a Main at or in the sub, for conveinence.

Not much more I think I can add.

Hi

Thanks for your reply TK

The distribution box is protected by the big tall 200 Amp disconnect switch below it. The distribution box feeds a 200 Amp panel on the floor above and a 100 Amp sub panel about 1' to the right of the disconnect and tap box. Both those panels have appropriate sized main breakers within them.

So if I am running 100 AMP feeder wire from the tap (distribution box) to the 100AMP garage sub panel I assume I need a 100 Amp fused disconnect right close to the distribution box as it has 200 Amps available in it. I assume this is the way I have to go to protect the 100 AMp feeder wire if it was ever to short out along the path to garage. I assume with this setup any disconnect at the sub panel in the garage would be just for convenience.

Does this sound reasonable?

I think we are OK without GFI in garage but the sump pump is supposed to be GFI and the plug near the wash basin will have to be GFI.

Our GFI outlets come under five rules.

1- plugs within 59" of bathtub or shower except washing machine and dryer plugs in bath/laundry combined.

2- All plug outlet with 59" of wash basin except washing machine and dryer plugs in bath/laundry combined

3-All carport plugs

4-All outdoor plugs

5-Counter plugs within 59" of kitchen sink or wash basin

Picture included

Thanks

TK,

Please help me out here. In looking at the 2nd. Set of pictures along with reading the posts it seems to me that the lateral feed to the residence is 200 Amps, correct. The primary feed goes to the 200 amp switch. From the switch, primary power is fed through a junction box and within that JB are three taps that in turn feed the (a) 100 amp breaker panel and (B) 100 amp fused disconnect and in turn the sub panel.

Then the primary power continues on to a 200 amp main power panel on the upper floor.

Please note that there are no egc cables pictured any where. <Edited - I found two green cables. One coming into the 200 amp switch and one from the switch to the junction box. <Edited

How can this be safe, even if it is in Canada. Also, shouldn't the Main Panel be the source feed to sub panels and shouldn't those panels have four wire feeds, not three.

What am I not looking at that would make this a legal/safe installation.

Also from the pictures, it appears that the disconnect for primary feed is at the 200 amp switch, not the main panel and because of that, in an emergency, someone throwing the main breaker would in fact only be disconnecting the branch-circuits served by the main panel. The rest of the circuits are still receiving a direct feed from the switch.

I don't have a lot of time at the moment, so let me just deal with a couple of items.

PPC now that we have a full understanding of the system you have, there are a few issues.

You have 200 Amp fuses protecting a 100 Amp feeder, for the panel directly adjacent to the 200 Amp fusible Main. In USA, using the NEC, we do have Tap Rules, and this may be acceptable here, but there are some calcs I would need to do to confirm.

I do not see how you can do what you propose, connecting the new garage 100 Amp feeder, into the tap box, without having a 100 Amp fuse/breaker protecting the new feeder running 30 feet.

And, I question the existing 100 Amp panel feeder.

Let me answer Don's question. I see two bare EGC . One apparently to the 200 amp panel, and another to the 100 Amp panel.

PPC Can you confirm that each panel has an equipment grounding conductor in the feeder?

Don, I see the 200 Amp main protecting everything. Shut off the 200 Amp Main and all panels are de-energized.


Let's get through these issues before we continue onto te GFI questions.

Later,I do see the 100 amp circuit breaker near the 200 Amp main, for the new 100 amp panel. You will need to check with local codes regarding Tap Rules, to size the conductors feeding the existing 100 amp panel, and the new 100 amp disconnect.

Hi Don

Nice to see you jump in

My nick name for you would be the "The Watchdog" (lol with respect)

I will try to answer things as simple as possible to try to give a clearer picture.

The 200 amp big disconnect shuts the whole house down. In an emergency if you throw that switch the whole house is dead as for power from the meter which is at the front of the house.

All panels/sub panels including the tap box are after big main 200 amp disconnect. All branch circuits and panels/sub panels are protected by there own breakers and main switches.

So if I want to work on the upstairs 200 amp panel branch circuits I can shut that panel off with its 200 amp built in breaker. This is the same with all other panels/sub panels as they have there own disconnects. I can also shut the whole house done with the big 200 amp disconnect to work on the tap box and/or any panels. This is why I originally installed the 200 amp disconnect and tap box so I would have the ability to shut everything down safely if I was adding new equipment. Probably over kill but I thought it would be convenient.

The main switch box has #3 bare copper going to the 2 ganged ground rods just outside from the utility room buried in the ground.

The 200 amp panel upstairs has a 200 amp main breaker in it and is feed with 3-3/0 R90 + #3 bare copper

The 100 amp panel to the right of the tap box/main switch has a 100 Amp breaker and is feed with 3-#3 R90 and #4 bare copper. I could probably fit slightly heavier gauge wires in the lugs in the tap box feeding the 100 amp sub/disconnects but it would probably be over kill. TK I hope to hear back from you on your calculations on the minimum wire size coming out of that 200 amp tap box. Maybe the short conduit feeding the 100 amp sub panel should be metal and not PVC? I am hoping with that short a distance the inspector won't have an issue with it being PVC.

The 100 amp garage sub is not in yet but the proposed feeders would be ACWU 3-#2 with 1-#4 ground. It would have a 100 amp fused disconnect before it heads out toward the garage. That disconnect would be within a few feet of the tap box. I can feed that disconnect with 3-#3 R90 + #4 bare copper ground.

I would still like to put a non-fused disconnect beside the proposed sub panel in the garage just for convenience sake.

I could feed the proposed 100 Amp garage sub panel from a 100 amp branch breaker in the 100 Amp sub panel but I thought it would be better to come from the tap box.

So in summary all sub panels are feed with 4 conductors (2-black,1white & 1 bare copper ground wire) or in the case of the proposed garage sub it would be fed with the ACWU 4-conductor service wire.

Sorry about the confusion with the green looking wire. That is just green tape rapped around the bare copper earth grounds/panel grounds. I guess I thought it looked neat at the time I put the service in.

The existing main switch,tap box and 200 amp sub panel were approved by the hydro inspector and have been functioning A-1 since I installed over 10 years ago.

The 100 amp beside main switch is new with permit but isn't finished just yet (still wiring up). At this point I hope every thing goes OK.

I think the rule is any feeder wires off the 200 Amp tap box feeding panels close by have to be at least 1/3 the amp rating of 200 amp feeders. This I am not totally clear on but that's what was passed on to me by a commercial electrician. I would like to clear that up but I am still waiting to hear back from a very busy electrical inspection department.

I have notice that our Ontario Electrical code has lowered the gauge on the service conductors for 200 Amp. You can now do 200 Amp service with

2-#2/0 R90 (black,red or blue) copper
1-#6 R90 (white or natural grey) copper
1- #6 Bare copper

Sounds a bit light to me but that is what the new book states.

I try my best to do every thing the best possible and safe way but as I mentioned in my earlier posts my expertise is residential custom home construction/renovation. I am certified in the carpentry field but all the electrical services I have done myself were on my own homes with homeowner permits. So I do appreciate and welcome any input from the experts as I am learning new things every day.

Thanks

TK,

What I consider to be serious is that there are two places (200 amp Switch) and (200 amp Panel upstairs) claiming main power shut off, when in fact, only the 200 amp switch can provide that protection.

The way this is laid out, if you open the switch, the entire residence is shut down. Not so at the main panel upstairs. Shutting that panel down will only kill the branch circuits tied to that panel.

Also, If you look into the switch, you will see a Neutral/Ground bonding clamp. From there the ground goes to the upper junction box and makes a right turn and enters the conduit that feeds the 100 amp sub panel.

There appears to also be a egc from the junction box through a conduit run at the top right of the junction box, however this conduit disappears from sight and may well be connecting to the earth ground.

So it is possible that there are two bonded Neutral/Ground points.

If that's that the main panel must have an egc that also ties to the earth ground.

Is this a reasonably correct description of what I'm seeing. Are the taps allowed to to make two isolated sections?

PPC,

Greetings, your first two paragraphs isolate my prime concern.

There is only one place where someone can cut the feed to the entire home. The 200 amp switch.

At the 200 amp main panel upstairs. Which would in fact only kill the upstairs circuit. Someone other than yourself or family members may not know the location of the actual disconnect switch and thinking that the Main Service Panel shuts the residence down is now exposed if he/she attempts to work on circuits downstairs. Because those circuits will be hot.

In my un-learned experience, you would design the system to bring power to the Main Service panel.

At the main panel, you can place your 100 Amp feeder breakers to feed the sup panels in the basement and garage.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, there can only be one place place for the Neutral/Ground bonding to take place and that is the main panel.

Since both sub-panels are in the same building, you can use the same gound system as the main panel, but each of the sub panels must isolate the ground from the Neutral in the sub panel.

Personally, I suspect that the entire switch assembly down stairs is unnecessary and a potential danger.

Now in all honesty, I am not a licensed electrician and I have absolutely no Canadian experience, but I do know that Canada and the U.S. Are very similar and I will always defer to TK, Wash, Hank and Strat. If TK tells me I'm being overcautious then he is absolutely correct.

Hi Don

I will try to clarify things a bit more if I can help in the meantime.

The earth ground from the big main 200 amp fused disconnect switch goes outside through the little conduit shown in latest picture. The ground wire that you mentioned disappears in the conduit above the tap box goes to the 200 amp panel upstairs. That is the wire for the isolated panel ground on that 200 amp panel

If you look at the 200 Amp panel as just another panel past the tap box then it maybe easier for you to understand the grounding of that panel is not the service earth ground rather just the panel ground. The service ground is in the main 200 amp disconnect switch.

That is the service ground. Everything beyond that including the 200 amp upstairs panel are connected to the earth ground as the code requires here in Canada, that being isolate the grounds from the common. In other words all the grounds beyond the service ground are connected to the panel boxes only and not the common.

One is not to assume they are turning off the whole house flipping the 200 amp panel main breaker off just the branch circuits of that panel. Just as one does not assume they turn the whole 200 amp panel off by flipping just one branch circuit of that panel off. One should never assume they are shutting the whole building, house or structure down because they flipped one panel's main breaker off in a installation that has more than one panel. If that was the case then some may feel they are safe to work on the complete wired installation by shutting off any panel/sub panel main breaker or disconnect anywhere in the building.

Any main feeder wire work or sub panel/tap box work would require you to shut the big main 200 amp disconnect off. Any branch circuit work would require you to shut off the branch breaker/panel breaker that is feeding it or the main disconnect. And with all work the worker should be testing any circuit worked on with a circuit tester to make sure the power is off

In this installation the upstairs 200 amp panel feeds only upper floor circuits. The downstairs 100 Amp sub panel feeds only the downstairs and the proposed 100 Amp garage sub panel would feed only the garage circuits.

Thanks

PPC,

I'm just curious, who designed your electrical system, you or an electrician?

Is your home fed by an Overhead connection or a lateral connection?

Am I correct that the main service feed is currently routed to the switch, then the taps for the two parallel panels downstairs and finally to the "Main Panel" Upstairs?

Here in the U.S.A. I believe that taps are reserved for things like emergency lighting, alarms etc. When I get a moment, I'll check with my copy of the 2008 NEC code.

Hi Don

Every installation has different circumstances why the installation is done a certain way.

In my case the installation planning is a little different from the norm as the house was a factory built house original built and dropped on concrete block peers. The whole floor joist system is filled full to the brim with blow in insulation and 1/2 plywood nailed to the under side of the floor joist. All this work was done from the factory including the main 200 amp panel and wiring. The 200 amp panel was install from the factory at what is now the back of the house. All the upstairs branch circuits feed from that panel and go up into the attic to feed the branch circuits. There was nothing going downstairs through the insulated and plywood covered floor joist system. So when I purchased the used house decided I wanted to have a basement.

I built a pressure treated basement including an under the house garage partially buried in ground and then moved the house on top with trucks and a crane.

I always knew I wanted to have a finished basement with bedroom and summer kitchen and also gear towards a garage workshop so I tried to plan the service accordingly in a way that I thought would be convenient to work on. I put the meter base at the front of the house under the upper deck at the front. The main service wires are coming to the meter from the road side. The inspector allowed me to run the 200 amp service wires from the meter under the basement floor to the back left corner of the basement. This is in pvc conduit buried in sand under the basement floor. I put the big 200 Amp disconnect switch and tap box in that same back corner. This has allowed me to run all the basement circuits and proposed garage circuits as well as a few other new circuits without having to feed wires through the insulated and covered floor joist system or crawl around in a insulation filled attic. Also the original 200 Amp panel was fairly full with 240 breakers and not much wall area to expand as it is now in a finished upper laundry room.

If I was doing this installation again on a conventional set up I would have probably done it a little differently.

At this point the 200 Amp disconnect where it is installed in the main basement utility room has been very convenient so far and has cause no safety issues to this point. Don I haven't hand to throw that main disconnect very often but it gives you a bit of a thrill to pull that big switch when you have to.

The basement has grade level entry at the front and I can simply walk in from outside and access this main breaker quickly and the 100 AMP sub beside it. From that same grade level basement entry I can access the garage and proposed sub panel with ease as well.

Thanks

Don

The service wires come from the road underground to the meter then head under the slab to the Main 200 amp Disconnect at the back of the basement.

I designed and installed the whole deal (can you tell?) lol

I designed and built the basement foundation and finished basement and all the wiring layout.

I think the tap box should be fine as the inspector had no problems with it when it was passed years ago. Some installs up here run the big electric furnace from the tap box (distribution box) protected by a disconnect switch.

In my situation I can't see any other way that would have being much easier than the way that I did it. I could have ripped out the original 200 Amp panel and put a new bigger panel in but that would still have me running a pile of wires through the finish floor system to gain distribution throughout the basement and off to the garage or take up more panel space than I had to install the big 100 Amp branch breakers for sub panel feeders.

Just the thought of running the two sets of 100 amp feeder wires into the already crowded 200 amp panel sounded a bit scary to me not that it couldn't be done. As I also mentioned it is a bit tight in the upstairs finished laundry room where the 200 Amp panel is. It certainly wouldn't have been as convenient as the way I have it now.

I am not clear what the ongoing concerns you may have regarding the tap box but maybe you can fill me in on what you come up with so we are in the same mind space.

The tap box seems to make sense to me. For example lets say I take the other route and run the proposed 100 amp garage sub panel from a 100 amp branch breaker in the new 100 amp sub panel. If I decide to fire up the welder in the garage while the heat was on in the garage but I am still drawing less than 100 amps but at the same time someone has the stove on and some heat in the basement fed from the same 100 amp panel as the 100 amp branch breaker then I am likely going to pop off the 100 Amp sub panel main breaker. If I install a separate 100 amp sub panel in the garage fed from the tap box I would be coming from a 200 amp pool. So unless the upstairs panel is under a large above 100 amp load I should be smooth sailing in the garage and downstairs.

I guess the trick is don't weld up a trailer, ask my better half bake a cake and a turkey in two ovens and dry the laundry while my better half is running the hot water on a cold winter day when all the heaters are on. I could see some issues there.

I agree with you Don the installation is not the norm but neither was the environment it was designed for.

Thanks

While a bit odd, it is electrically fine, and even NEC compliant. The tap box is just that, a place to tap in another feeder, to a circuit breaker close by.

I can imagine with modular and manufactured homes this method would be popular.

Don, tread lightly in the NEC Code for taps, not a place for juniors to the Code.

PPC needs to confirm with CEC, may work out to be the same or similar to NEC, but I have come across differences between both in odd places.

The existing would be allowed to be connected in the USA in the same fashion, and same small feeder conductor.

The fuse or breaker can be up to ten times the ampacity of the tap conductor, but only with other specific conditions.

Tap Rules are very stringent and detailed, and should only be considered by professionals.

Technically PPC would need to perform load calculations to be sure the tap conductor is sized properly to be NEC Code compliant.

Hi TK

I will try to find out as soon as the inspector gets back to me with the tap box feeder size for the 100 Amp panel is. Apparently he is very busy with spring permits. A good sign for sure as we are waiting to get things rolling again up our way.

I am assuming that the 3-#3 with the #6 bare copper should be OK as that what the book shows for 100 Amp service conductors but as you mentioned the tap box conductors may be treated a bit differently.

I can change those if I have to as it is less than two feet of wire and I get to throw the 200 amp disconnect again.

The one I will have to be super sure about is the 30' or so of ACWU 3-#2 with 1-#4 ground all in the one package to feed the garage 100 amp sub. I don't want to buy it and find out the inspector wants me to run 3-#3 coppers and ground in steel conduit.

Thanks