After the last post about a husky puppy and the mention of becoming "alpha" in the pack, it made me think... And this entire post is based on pure speculation... please don't rake me through the coals. :)

I remember the first time I attended dog training school. My instructor told me to never, under any circumstance, mention to my clients that they need to become alpha to their dogs. She explained to me that when people hear about "alpha" dogs with dominance issues, people will take it the most extreme and basically do all the wrong things to achieve the alpha dog stance in the pack.

With that being said... I got to thinking. My dog is very assertive. She would walk over 90% of the people who I work with and blow them off... But, she is in no way, shape or form... aggressive.

Some of my clients have problems with their dogs. The dog basically blows off these people and does what it wants. I gave the suggestions of sit and wait for food, eat last, eat in a crate, everything the dog wants the dog has to earn, right? These people have been doing it... Has anything improved? A little.. Is it fixed? No. Will it ever? I don't know.

That got me thinking more...

In the wild... The more assertive dog is in charge. The Alpha Female... The Queen B! She gets a bit older... not necessarily weak, but more relaxed... younger dog comes along, fights for the position... takes over the pack... The x-alpha isn't necessarily banned from the pack... She is still a good pack member to have around to help take care of the other dogs... SOO... How would that be any different with less assertive people? People who are very soft spoken, who don't really enforce their rules and basically plead with the dog to do something. They aren't bad people... Its not a bad dog.. . The situation... That dog feels like the person who is "alpha" when this dog is a puppy, is not living up to the duties to keep the pack safe when the dog is an adult.

So... conclusion... Is it really the dog trying to be mean and be in charge? Or is the dog picking up the role of Alpha because the human isn't capable of being alpha. Dogs start to challenge their owners around 1-2 years of age. That is the age that most dogs get dumped into the shelter for "bad behavior". Is it really a case of the new owner of a puppy not asserting themselves enough? Or is it a case of less assertive people purchasing a puppy who is basically born to be a leader?

I think that although it can be very rewarding to own a dog not all people are "dog" people. They think it's a good idea for protection etc but they don't realize the nature of the beast. Just look at how some people are natural dog people and others have to work at it. Yes there are some things that come with the bloodline of an animal but in reality any dog will behave if treated right. Many get dogs out of sympathy for having a great dog before or other animal and think the new one will be the same. Often times its nothing like that. For the most part its patience and control and the dogs will love you forever. If you willingly give up either of those then the "game" is lost. The problem pet begins.

Well I have already voiced my opinion on the subject. I have had some experience in behaviour modification, which is different then obiedience. I do agree that some people take it to the extrem, but a good trainer knows they are there to train the owners not the dogs. SO with that being said, I believe dogs love having jobs, not knowing what their role is in their homes, makes a fearful dog.
My dog works for her kibble, and she is well adjusted and happy. When we are out I know my dog looks to me for everything, and inturn she gets rewarded. It is not doing stupid tricks, I do not make her roll over or sit pretty. My dog went from high strung and dog aggressive, to relaxed and can now walk past another dog with out even looking sideways. Yup it takes us working and training everyday. We are now working on her separation anxiety, which I have to say she has made drastic improvements with in 2 weeks.
So I have tried and tested my methods, and they have worked wonderfully for me, so I will continue.
There is so much politics in rescue and training, I don't think you will ever find two people who share the same ideas completley.

And about the voice thing, when I am training I use a mono tine voice, I don't raise my voice at all. Of course there are times when I use my "I mean business" voice, but while training I try to use an even level voice. Also Lady watches for hand commands almost constantly. She knows sit and down, and heel.
She also knows when it is time to relax. I don't have her on edge constantly or anything, but when we are in public, she knows she is to be on her bext behavior. My 10 year old Am Staff is the same way. Except he doesn't do hand commands. And is going deaf in his old age :)

I completely agree with both of you... It does take a lot of work to establish what you want from a dog. Behavior modification is amazing.. I love it! And yes... Training classes aren't for dogs.. its for people.. Too bad we can't call them "Human training". Think that would sell? Hah.

I think a lot of issues dogs have and we see and experience is all human created. In the wild... there are no "Ifs", "ands", or "buts" about who is in charge... Its me no questions asked. I honestly think it does take a dedicated person to see an issue until its fixed... Not a lot of people want that... They want the quick fix.

But I still find it interesting that people who buy puppies still have issues when the dog is an adult. Does it stem from puppyhood? Or is it honestly the personality type of the dog that isn't seen until adulthood?

I also think,and still speculation, that women have a harder time with dogs. It's the natural instinct to want to nurture and please... Men, not only do they sound more aggressive by voice alone, but they are also more demanding.

I think there are a lot of inside issues that aren't typically seen by your average dog trainer/pet owner.

Here's my opinion, and it's just that, my opinion. :)

I really don't think many dogs have it in them to be alphas, but, if nobody takes the position, they will fill it, because they need that stability. A dog that isn't an alpha but fills the role of alpha because no one else will, that's a very unbalanced and unhappy dog.

I have 3 dogs right now. My Indy is 14 years old, a lab cross. He was easy as pie to train. Potty training was so easy, so was walking on a leash, coming when called. Everything. He accepted his role right from the beginning.

Jasper, my 7 year old border collie cross was a bit harder. It wasn't that he was trying to be alpha, he was terrified of humans. He's a rescue. We got him when he was 4 months old and his previous owner/breeder/jerk abused him severely. For the first week or 2 he wouldn't come anywhere near us. If it wasn't for sweet gentle Indy, I'm not sure if Jasper would have ever come around. He potty trained easily but the trust for other commands just wasn't there until he got a bit older. Now he's a very well rounded wonderful dog. You'd never know about the abuse in his past.

Now there's Chewy. Who would have thought that the runt of the litter, the one being knocked down by his brothers, would be an alpha. This little guy has really given me a run for my money. He's a beagle, very intelligent and as stubborn as me. Maybe I was a beagle in another life. Something to think about. ;)

Anyway, Chewy took months to potty train. I've potty trained many pups and I've never had as much trouble as I had with Chewy. The sit command was learned within 1 hour, so I know he can learn and he learns fast, but potty time, he wasn't having any of it. I followed the pack leader method with him and it worked like a charm. He's 1 1/2 years old now, still has some things to learn, but he's out of the "OMG! Not again! Why oh why!" stage. ;)

Every dog is different. I love Cesars method but will it work for every dog, I don't know. It's worked for Chewy. With the other two I had no idea about Cesars method, I just naturally became the pack leader because they were natural followers and I'm pigheaded. ;)

People are coming up with new methods all the time. Twenty years ago it was recommended to smack your dog if he misbehaved, or hold his nose in his pee or poo if he had an accident. I remember those days, that's how my parents trained our poodle. We've come a long way from those days. We still have more to learn.

That's just my opinion. :)

When Max went to obiedience classes, they said the only wsy we would gain control and leadershio with such a big dog would be to use a pinch collar. Also the trainer said if he doesn't sit the first time you ask,you walk over and force him down. This was only 9 years ago.
Needless to say we stopped taking him there. My trainer claims all the time that she is still new in the business, she has been doing it for 20 years.

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Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell

When Max went to obiedience classes, they said the only wsy we would gain control and leadershio with such a big dog would be to use a pinch collar. Also the trainer said if he doesnt sit the first time you ask,you walk over and force him down. This was only 9 years ago.
Needless to say we stopped taking him there. My trainer claims all the time that she is still new in the business, she has been doing it for 20 years.

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I remember the pinch collar. Our old vet recommended one for Indy, even though he was fine walking with a regular collar and leash. When I questioned her she told me that all big breeds should be handled with a pincher collar. I can't believe that I went to her for years. No, I never did use the collar. Why would I?

We do use a choker chain on Chewy, mainly because he can slip out of every collar we've bought so far. He's a little houdini dog. I won't use a harnass because it offers no control over the walk. So a choker chain it is, he can't slip out of that. :)

The other two have regular leather collars. They can both get out of them but they don't go anywhere, they just continue to walk beside us. The only reason we have them collared and leashed is because it's the law. :)

What about a martyn gale or a halty/gentel leader?

I can't stand those pinch/prong collars. I only found out they existed a few weeks ago (they are banned here)
We do use choke (check as they are called here) chains.

I think with all if not most dogs they do test your boundaries, same as children.
All dogs we have had at some point in there life have tested our position as the alpha.
Just a few months ago Brody peed on our bed, we caught him red pawed and yes, he got a smack on the butt (no comments on this please) he growled at V and went to take a snap at him. V grabbed him and held him down on the bed until he stopped.
He has never, ever growled, snapped or done anything aggressive towards V again.
He was testing his boundaries.

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Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell

What about a martyn gale or a halty/gentel leader?

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I've tried the halty, didn't work, he gets out of it. I haven't heard of the martyn gale, I'll have to look it up.

I only use the choker to correct and to keep him tethered. Sadly, he's a beagle and as such, if he gets loose, he's gone. No matter what you do or say, how well he's trained, he follows his nose. It's almost like he's deaf once he gets loose. He won't come back and I'm really worried that one day he'll get loose and that will be it, he'll either get hit by a car or we won't be able to catch him. I'm always worried whenever we go for a walk.

I'm literally at the end of my leash when it comes to a good collar for this little guy.

Picture? Do you want a picture. Try and stop me. ;)

This is our youngest pup, Chewy (his puppy days earned him that name)

Attachment 29068

It's an old picture. He was around 3 months old there, it was a few days after we brought him home. :)

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Originally Posted by shazamataz

I can't stand those pinch/prong collars. I only found out they existed a few weeks ago (they are banned here)
We do use choke (check as they are called here) chains.

I think with all if not most dogs they do test your boundaries, same as children.
All dogs we have had at some point in there life have tested our position as the alpha.
Just a few months ago Brody peed on our bed, we caught him red pawed and yes, he got a smack on the butt (no comments on this please) he growled at V and went to take a snap at him. V grabbed him and held him down on the bed until he stopped.
He has never, ever growled, snapped or done anything aggressive towards V again.
He was testing his boundaries.

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Anyone that tells me they've never lost it and smacked their dog, doesn't have a dog. I've been there. I felt like hell afterwards, but it happens. No worries Shaz. :)

Chewy has shown aggression in the past. I'm hoping that we nipped it in the bud but he's bitten me. It was my fault. He was still a pup, around 7 months old and he and Jasper got into a fight. Not a bad one by doggie standards but by my standards it sounded and looked horrible, so stupid me stepped in.

As soon as I did Jasper backed away. Chewy didn't. What did I do? The worst thing I could do, I put my hand in his path to stop him and I got bit. It bled like you wouldn't believe and to this day it's feels numb and it hurts. That was almost a year ago.

When Chewy wouldn't stop I slapped his butt. Human reaction, especially because I was bleeding. It happens, not often because I know better, but, again, human here! ;)

Whenever Chewy shows aggression now (which thankfully isn't often) I pin him and use the claw method (Cesar again) and it works. The key is to feel confident, not just show confidence. Dogs are great at reading us, if we don't believe what we convey, they know it and they'll act. My opinion. :)

Well they designed the martyn gale for the greyhound. They are escape masters just because of the way their heads are shaped! But I know you know that :)
It might work, it's the same idea as a choke, but it will only go far enough for it to not choke... hope that made sense!
I googled a few images, sorry I was spelling it wrong, but is that a surprise ;)

http://www.faithfulpetproducts.com/i...martingale.jpg

Google Image Result for http://www.northwindwhippets.com/assets/martingale_col7.jpg

How a Martingale Collar Works

Martingale Collars ? Great Martingale Collars Found Here!

Ah! Now I know what you're talking about. ;)

Yes, been there, done that, chased Chewy for 1/2 an hour because he managed to get loose.

I swear this dog knows magic. ;)

I've seen my dad come out of a dog fight... not fun.
I don't know much about Caesar, I've heard enough to know I'm happy to keep training the way I am but I have heard he has helped a lot of people through his techniques.

When Brody went to bite V he just put his hand on his shoulders and his rump and held him down on the bed until Brody had realised he had lost the fight and just stopped.
I don't usually like this technique but it sure did work.

Brody also knows what "ouch" means.
Even if I say ouch because I got a paper cut he gives me that look of "sorry!" (Mostly because its him that hurts me by digging his nails into my leg and he gets told no)

Lady was a fighter. The first day I brought her home, the neighbours dog came over to meet and greet, which I am not a big fan of anyway, but none the less he was there. Lady started by wagging her tail, sniffing around the yard, kind of ignorring Beefcake, next thing I knew Lady was attacking him savagly. I ran over pulled her off, luckily neither dog turned on me. I didn't strike her, I used the towel over their heads trick and pulled Lady off.
When I first started my training with Lady, she did not consider me the boss. I would ask her to sit and she would walk away. So I would put her gentel leader on her, and grab the bottom part (the part that the leash hooks onto) and I would pull it up so she was forced to sit. I didn't like this technique, but it got the point across fast. I think I have only ever had to do that twice. IT didn't cause her any pain, just wasn't very comfortable for her to have her head positioned that way.
I know some people will disagree with that method, but it worked.

Have you guys ever watched "at the end of my leash" with Brad something?
I like his techniques as well. Caesar has some great techniques too. My mom loves that show!

I have to praise myself! I have never been bitten by a dog... However; When that day happens, I think it will be the worse... I always invade dogs' space. I'll stick my head into crates with unknown dogs, mess with them while they eat... Take food away... put my hand in their bowl. I'll pinch feet, tug on ears, grab skin with no muzzle... I'll sometimes clip nails with no muzzle on either! So like I said... When that day comes, it'll probably horrible! But so far, no bites.

One time, I was playing with Miley... And we were playing "keep away"... I was teasing her with the toy and she was biting at it. She accidentally missed and had my entire arm in her huge, gapping mouth. I felt the pressure from her massive jaws... every point on her tooth. She immediately released and backed off with the look of, "Uh oh....am I in trouble?"... Play time immediately ended.

I've never really had any issues with dominant dogs. Even with all the dogs that come and go here at the rescue, they all abide by the rules after they settle in. None of them challenge me or my mom... We can walk through them with a bucket of food, and not a single one will jump on us. New people... well, that's fair game!

I like the gentle leaders over the halties... For one, they can't get out of the gentle leaders.. Two, if you have cantankerous pitties like I do, and someone has a rude dog, it's a quick fix to a muzzle.

Hehe the worst bite I ever received was when I was helping out at the "dog jail", a dog had been seized, and I was standing in front taking his picture writing down the description, and I slightly turned to the left, maybe I freaked him out, but next thing I knew I was getting a sharp pain in my A$$. I still have 4 lovely puncture wounds on my behind!
I fostered a cocker spainiel for 2 weeks a while back, and she had really bad food aggression, she would growl the entire time she ate, whether there was someone there or not, anyway, I went over and took the bowl away, and in a split second she reached out and almost tore my thumb complelty off. I've also been bitten by our shih Tzu's,(when I was 5, I dressed one of them up in a dress, and she bit my nose!) a poodle, a German Shepherd, and more cats then I can count.
I have more fear of cats then I do of dogs.

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Originally Posted by Aurora_Bell

Hehe the worst bite I ever recived was when I was helping out at the "dog jail", a dog had been siezed, and I was standing in front taking his picture writing down the description, and I slightly turned to the left, maybe I freaked him out, but next thing I knew I was getting a sharp pain in my A$$. I still have 4 lovely puncture wounds on my behind!

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Nice... lol

As for the pinch collars... I have to use one on my pit bull. She walks wonderful on a gentle leader ( I accidentally turned that into her training caller... I worked at petco, and when I had to put price tags up, she would be crawling underneath the shelves trying to eat the loose kibble)... I only use it when I take her to the Pit Bull Shows.. only because... I can't have a pit bull on a gentle leader... how untough! Lol And that's once a year. For the most part, I don't really like them. They're the toughest form of correction out there, besides a remote trainer. I actually had people tell me that they would tie their dogs out on the pinch collar because they would pull to the point of breaking the collar... Ugh.. By the time they left the store, they felt bad and had a new collar in their hands. I swear,people just don't think!

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I like the gentle leaders over the halties... For one, they can't get out of the gentle leaders.. Two, if you have cantankerous pitties like I do, and someone has a rude dog, it's a quick fix to a muzzle.

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Do you have a link? Do you think it would work for my little escape artist? I'm at the point where I'll try anything, I just want him to be safe when we go for walks.